Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Headcase: in response to this "To this day, this troper has seen some groups of people declaring Unleashed the greatest Sonic game since sliced bread, some enjoying the daytime-more-traditional portions of the game while quietly dismissing the nighttime-werehog-portions, and others (including official gaming news sites) declaring that the werehog completely and utterly destroys the game single-handedly. Unbelievable."

I'm pretty tempted to modify\remove it. I was going to reply but that area was already looking a bit cluttered. Anyway, from what I noticed, anyone who does like unleashed almost invariably doesn't like the werehog sections... seems to be this "unpleasable" fanbase would have been perfectly pleased if Sega cut out the werehog BS and focused on the running. But if someone actively enjoys the werehog sections (as in they would play the game without the running sections), speak up please.

Komodin: Yes, I indeed like the Werehog segments, and would play it even without the Hedgehog segments.

Sir Ilpalazzo: I think the section describing Smash tourney elitists is kind of unfair. There definitely are people who do act like that, but they're in the minority, and the way the article is written makes it look like all hardcore Smash players are like that.

Headcase: Yeah. Feel free to toss in a little point there saying not all of 'em are like this. Well, then again, you can say that for most of the examples here, so I dunno.

Meagen: I described the "this fanfic is bad because it dares to CHANGE the show it's based on" phenomenon. Some troper commented:

If you're working with previously established characters, settings and events, keeping continuity with the originals seems like a valid measure of quality to me...

I would agree, but only in the case of fanfic that is somehow implied to take place during the show/book/movie's timeline. Exploring alternate ways the story could have gone, or transplanting the characters to a different setting, or just mashing a few universes together, are all valid ways to start telling a story.

Whether the changes made are for the better is a different matter (and gets into territory that's not unlike "Adaptation Distillation vs. Adaptation Decay"). But some people will have the initial reaction of "if you change this thing about the show the result has to suck", which is what this trope is about. :)

HeartBurn Kid: Not sure how this bit fits... can anybody enlighten me, or shall I yank it?

This editor was watching The Matrix when it aired on TV. Due to time constraints, the scene when Neo meets the Oracle was cut out. It was not until Neo prepared to shoot the elevator cable that I realized the key plot piece had been removed.
- TBS is particularly bad at this, cutting whole scenes from a movie to save for time. In Demolition Man, for example, a fight scene near the climax was cut where Huxley, a future cop who has never been in a real fight before, ends up shooting someone. On its own, this isn't that big of a plotpoint, but TBS kept in the following scene, which includes Huxley going at length to rationalize her actions; actions that the viewer didn't see. This editor refuses to watch movies on TBS anymore because of their habit of doing this.
- Similarly, when Mystery Men was shown on the station, they cut, among other things, all the scenes between The Shoveler's big speech and the parodied Power Walk, which included three very plot relevant scenes. If this editor remembers correctly, they also cut a good chunk out of the ride over, too.

TTD: Yeah, that looks like it'll be more at home in They Just Didn't Care... I guess. (Moves it there.)

Charred Knight: most of the complaints of the Fullmetal Alchemist movie stems from the lack of shipping between Ed and Winry, and Roy, and Eliza, and the Character Derailment of Mustang, as whining over the death of all the Ishvalans, something he didn't do that much of in the actual TV series. Also I added an example of a type of complaints, and tried to make the whole thing more neutral to prevent a fan war.

Man Called True: Personally, my initial comment was biased to balanace out the ridiculous amount of neutral-balancing I've had to do towards the manga fans's edits to this wiki. Seriously, we have a small bloc of diehard FMA manga fans here, and they won't shut up.

Andyroid: Removed this pile of Complaining About Games You Don't Like and replaced it with something more neutral.

This troper loves the Legend of Zelda series(so much so, he used to use Link as a nickname on videogames(I lack originality)). However, the game that never ceases to bring this troper endless amounts of pissed off in a bucket is The Adventure of Link. This troper doesn't know whether it was because it was a side-scroller, or because the control scheme SUCKED, or simply because you don't get to know WHAT THE F#$^ IS GOING ON!, but anyway you slice it, this troper hates its guts and wants to not only burn every cartridge in existence of this game, but also send a virus to destroy EVERY SINGLE ROM FILE of Adventure of Link just so he will never have to see it ugly face again!

It's tremendously amusing to see people getting all worked up about They Changed It Now It Sucks on a page that's intended to make fun of people getting all worked up about They Changed It Now It Sucks...

That Other 1 Dude: Anyone else think that pic would work better on Unpleasable Fanbase or Fan Dumb?

Andrew: I haven't read the Harry Potter books, so I'm not going to take a scalpel to the Potter examples. But can someone with some familiarity and a bit of guts please go to work on it? Because right now it's an absurdly long string of natter, sub-points, sub-sub-points and "This Troper thinks...".

Andrew: An admirable effort Charred.

Charred Knight: I like natter as long as its funny, but when its just plain people whining I tend to delete it. When you brought it up I decided enough was enough and trimmed the thing. Also the reason the Scouring of the shire was deleted was because it was anti-climactic, and long and would be inpratical to add an entire battle scene as a deleted scene.

HeartBurn Kid: Can we please get rid of some of the Justifying Edits in this page? Seriously, now... I've started by cutting the one about Smash Bros:

Perhaps even worse are those players who never understood wavedashing in the firstplace, thus defining it as a glitch and gamebreaking, celebrating vocally and publicly the removal of a technique that only served to deepen gameplay. Even more absurd are those complaining about a unique and isolated group of people seeking to change things in an update to something they prefer to play with, which will not effect the community at large in the slightest.
To clarify, Wavedashing was a technique used primarily for mental games and spacing, and was only marginally important compared to SHFF Ls and L-cancelling. Many more casual players decided it was a glitch or cheating, ignoring the fact that it has its own unique state when debug mode is on, and was left in the various versions of Melee that removed other, actual glitches like Mewtwo's Soul Breaker or the Ice Climber's permanent freeze glitch.

I'll come back and ax some more later.

//Later: I'm baaaaaaaaaaack! Here's some more natter and justifying edits that got the ax:

Fans didn't realize that the miniseries was complete shit and nothing compared to the 1984 film. Luckily the second miniseries made up for it.
- ...friend?
- This troper actually liked the first miniseries and thought the second was impossibly tedious. He also liked the Lynch movie (as a standalone piece of weirdness, not necessarily as an adaptation of Dune), So Yeah.
Dragon Ball is required to be believable?
This troper heard more TCINIS about the cast, and was originally part of it, until he realized that Joon Park will make a damn good Yamucha. (Not so sure about Justin Chatwin, though.)
They did something right with James Marsters as Piccolo. He is the best reason to watch Smallville right now. The fact that he seems to be a fan of the show also helps. In reality, Dragonball Z as is would be a horrible live-action movie because of its cartoony nature and heavily serialized story. Something needs to be simplified.
- Personally, this troper will be intensely glad that five minutes will likely actually take five minutes in the movie, rather than God knows how many episodes.
The majority of the complaints this troper has seen for the Dragon Ball movie is that there is no Vegeta. Seriously.
This troper has heard a lot of complaints about how Goku was white and not Asian. So space aliens that happen to live in Japan must look Japanese? May I remind you he's an alien?
- How can you even tell the difference on the cartoon?
This troper knows that Superman is an alien as well (so aliens that live on Krypton are "white"?); he (this troper, that is) is sure we'll be seeing a black actor portray him—Ka-el— soon....(But first we need to see how Dragonball: Evolution pans out). As for Goku, this troper believes his eyes show he Asiatic...
The problem with the Resident Evil movies isn't that they're bad movies, but that they're not Resident Evil. They're Mary Sue Takes on Zombies. Alice completely eclipses any and all of the canon characters and plotlines, to the point where you have to wonder why they bothered calling it "Resident Evil" after the first movie.

(Final Fantasy VI) However, there is one glaring exception. Woolsey portrayed Kefka as a genuinely creepy Ax-Crazy Monster Clown who gleefully inflicts death and suffering because he finds it funny. In the GBA script, he's all Monster and no Clown; rather than enjoying the havoc he wreaks, he kills because he just doesn't care about anything other than getting power for himself. The GBA version of Kefka is far less memorable and far less interesting than Ted Woolsey's version of the character.
- Apart from "Son of a submariner!", which really didn't need to be changed, I didn't see terribly much different about Kefka in the GBA version. His "you sound like chapters out of a self-help book!" is still beautifully intact, with the bonus that the preceding dialogue from the main cast members in defense of humankind is now more sappy than stilted. (I seem to recall Terra saying something about "the net worth of a human life" in the SNES version...)
- Kefka was the same character in both translations regardless. Still, after more than a decade of complaints by the fandom over Ted Woolsey's script, the much-anticipated re-translation came out...then all of a sudden, the fan community decided that Ted Woolsey was the saint of localizations and any new script was inherently inferior.
- They added gameplay features without altering the level design to suit! There's an on-record wage dispute which led to deliberately poor performances! Snake does a rocket jump! RRAAARRR ARRRARRRHGHRRAAARRRHGHGH
  - The above ranting is exactly why you will not be able to enjoy any cutscene videos of The Twin Snakes on You Tube. Fan Haters have made it their mission to whine and snark about the changes till kingdom freakin' come, and anyone who resists is going to get the brunt of their rancor. Then there's the hate the True Fans have for the director that was hired for The Twin Snakes for cinematic changes, even though Kojima is on record wanting these changes made ...
- Not to mention that Zelda never had a consistent geography to begin with. In order to get the maps from Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past to match up, you had to arbitrarily decide that North wasn't the top of the map, but the top-left corner. Let's not even get into how fans have explained away obvious descrepancies in the Minish Cap map and the map for the original game. Ironic in that the Twilight Princess map itself doesn't match up to any other map in the series, even if un-mirrored.
- The Knight Rider revival movie actually sucked, though. It had all the stupidity of the original series with none of the redeeming fun or humor or delicious, delicious cheese. And they didn't even use the boost button! What the hell? Let's not even mention the endless stream of Product Placement...
  - Yuh-huh.
- This troper recently upgraded from 2 to 3, and can testify that, once you've gotten used to the old style address bar, the Firefox 3 style is rather annoyinh. When I type 'c', I want to find addresses that START with the letter 'c', not 'have the letter c somewhere in them'.

Oh, and I'm just axing out that whole morass of Harry Potter natter, because it's just too thick to sort out. Somebody who cares can weed out the relevant bits and put them back in:

This troper had British neighbors (of the "we're British and proud enough to keep reminding you" variety) who complained that Radcliffe was ruining the movies before the first one even came out, merely because his eyes were the wrong color (granted, the "you have your mother's eyes" element was an important character building element in the first three books/movies, but blue instead of green doesn't change that). They later continued their complaints, adding that Watson and Radcliffe were too pretty to play the bucktoothed Hermione and the knobby kneed Harry.
Let's not forget that in the Goblet of Fire movie, after Barty Crouch is shown dead, no mention or explanation of the occured appears. The backstory of the perpetrator is ignored as well (only a flashback and his reveal), leaving film-only followers lost.
This editor has an almost irrational hatred of any changes made for time when it comes to an adaptation of a pre-existing work. This came to light when watching Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, and ended with him screaming at the television for not taking advantage of plot points, ignoring others, screwing up the Quidditch matches by taking away the best part (the commentary), etc. etc. etc. At least changing things to make them suck less is still something he can tolerate.
However, it must be said: They started filming the movies before the series was finished. Now about 90% of the stuff they cut turns out to be hugely important to the plot of the last book. They are screwed.
- They can always do what they did with Order of the Phoenix on a couple of plot points: simply ignore what the past movies have said and pretend that those things were set up properly.
This editor generally liked the film version of Prisoner of Azkaban but cutting the Marauders' backstory is a legitimate complaint because it's a major plot point that would have taken all of two minutes to reveal. Maybe they assumed that everyone would have read the book anyway. Similarly, a few found Dave "King of Nightmare Valley" McKean's art direction a little too warped. Others thought it just what the doctor ordered.
This editor prefers the first two films to any of the adaptations afterward, not because she is averse to alterations made in the process of adapting something into another media, but because the cuts made to later films make them incomprehensible to anyone not familiar with the books and therefore not something that could stand up as solid stories in their own right.
This tropher is just wondering why people credit the first two movies with being great and the following three with sucking, when GoF really was a fantastic and enjoyable film that remained true enough to the books (unlike PoA and OotP, which seemed a little like exercises in cutting and plot-mashing).
- I don't think we were watching the same movie. The excuse offered for all the cuts (time constraints) sounds a lot less reasonable when things like an utterly stupid and pointless dragon chase seen are thrown in for no reason. Why would Dumbledore ever have a dragon in a chain it could break?
Good news: Deathly Hallows will indeed be two films! JK Rowling will then finally be rich enough to buy Britain.
Not to interrupt what this troper and that troper think about the HP films, but this troper would like to point out that the fans are doing this to the sixth (currently unreleased) movie based entirely on rumours, interviews and press releases, and he doubts that any of you are surprised to hear it.

And for LOTR as well:

The entire series was originally going to be compressed into a single film. Peter Jackson and his team went to several studios practically begging for two movies. They went to New Line, who said, "Why do you want to make two movies out of this?" For a second, they were crushed, until the executive said, "This is three films," at which point everybody was relieved and a lot of quick retooling had to be done.
And don't forget that they were originally going to enrage even more of the fanbase by having Aragorn fight Sauron in person at the Battle of the Morannon. Then they thought better of it and stuck a troll in on top of him. A good idea, since they'd probably have gotten the studio bombed otherwise.
This troper actually engaged in defending the adaptation after seeing Fellowship with his father. His father asked where the "walking trees" were. The troper responded, "Dad, it's only a 3-hour movie."
The enormous character derailment of Faramir was annoying, but at least made sense. Similiarly, the Ents' initial uncooperativity bothered quite a few.
- This troper was practically livid with Faramir's treatment in The Two Towers, but was placated by his storyline in The Return of the King. And in hindsight, it does work better theatrically speaking to have him jaded by his daddy-issues.
- Yeah. One of the major "mainstream" complaints about RotK is that it already has "three endings". Adding Shire-Scouring would not have helped.
- The thing about the Ents that bugged me was not that the story was changed, but that the story was changed in a way that made less sense, and actually introduced a plot hole — what were all the Ents doing at the south end of the Forest, waiting for Treebeard's call, if they had decided not to attack Isengard?

And for Dungeons And Dragons (though we should probably work some of the Vista stuff back into the software section, if only as a subversion, since it really is that bad):

This editor, who runs games as a Game Master thought that 3rd edition (especially the revised "3.5" rules) were a vast mechanical improvement over the previous (2nd) edition, to the extent that said rules system change changed him from a person who knew of the game to a person actively playing it. Yet, he still digs through 2nd Edition books as valid resources. When 4th Edition comes out, he plans to use what, to him, sounds better and not use those things that aren't. The rabid fans apparently think that such thought is illogical and heretical. Their loss.
The near-mandatory internet-exclusive supplemental material is the biggest complaint in this troper's circles.
"Near-mandatory"? What kind of spoiled weed are you smok—OH HOLY CRAP! SEE! See what happens? The friggin' flame war spilled onto TV tropes! This is a pretty sterling example of how this stuff can heat up.
The vast majority of the complaints about it seem to be leveled at the change in the default campaign setting, from the notoriously unpopular Greyhawk setting to one as of yet unnamed, and the frequent claim that it will play "Just like a tabletop MMO" due to the addition of many new abilities for the many martial classes to use instead of vanilla attacks. Thankfully, the developers have almost completely ignored such input.
This troper has heard D&D Fourth Edition referred to as "Dungeons and Dragons Vista", comparing it to the flaming wreck of an operating system Microsoft recently released.
- At least there isn't a "Dungeons and Dragons ME". Anyway, this troper is eager to try out 4th edition, and— what do you mean bard is no longer a core class?! ...eager to rip out the eyes of those responsible with a chainsaw.
- Incidentally, Vista may be a good example of a real-life version of this trope. Many point to the fact that it runs fine given sufficiently powerful hardware to claim that it is, while others point to degradation of performance on the same hardware, reduced driver compatibility, and the god-damn annoying UAC alerts as genuine reasons to hate it. Still others hate it for more technical reasons, such as the DRM integrated into the kernel, or the increased integration of Windows Genuine Advantage (which, in the original release, could completely disable your system if Microsoft's WGA servers are misconfigured — Microsoft thankfully came to their damn senses and removed this "feature" in Service Pack 1, but not before it got triggered over one weekend, reducing thousands of legitimate Vista computers to timed web kiosks until it was fixed). And even Microsoft has been feeling the pain from Vista's bloat, as they were forced to yet again extend XP's life in an attempt to capitalize on the new trend of low-power ultra-mobile P Cs (a class of computer that will not run Vista in any way, shape, or form). Come to think of it, Vista may not be a good example after all.
If you want to get your hair flamed off, bring up the subject of the Cosmology. There is enough background about devils demons and assorted others to fill about two dozen slat books, but they are removing a lot of this for the very valid reason that there is no point putting in several chapters on a war that the P Cs are incapable of participating in, influencing or (most of the time) even perceiving! How dare they not dedicate more room to the personal machinations of an obscure cardboard cut-out Chess Player than the core classes put together!

Charred Knight: I axed you nuked.

HeartBurn Kid: Damn right I did. This page was in dire need of it, too. Mind the glass bits.

The Stray: nuking this natter in the D&D section. Wasn't a whole much of this already excised?

Well, considering that it ended up being every bit as bad as it was feared to be, this is very justified.

HeartBurn Kid: Yes, yes it was. Added a disclaimer, and pulled out this bit of natter:

If you really can't stand the Firefox 3 address bar, there's a mod to change it to a Firefox 2 style bar.

Music

Pro-Mole: Just to avoid Conversation In The Main Page:

One of the most ridiculous examples of this is fans complaining about Juggernaut being a mutant. Nevermind his relationship with Xavier being removed. Nevermind that his character was poorly used. How he got his powers is more important...even if those powers came from the magical, cursed artifact of a heathen God in the comics. They're wondering why the filmmakers didn't stuff a subplot like that into a movie canon that a) has never mentioned magic or any kind of superhuman powers other than mutation and b) is already staggering under the weight of Loads And Loads Of Characters?

I actually was more uncomfortable by his costume's rendition. I mean... the breastplate seems to be the barely covering Ultimate Marvel version, but shouldn't his helmet cover his face as well?

HeartBurn Kid: Natter BAD~!

To be entirely fair, wavedashing isn't a glitch; it was programmed into the game as "what happens when you air dodge into the ground". It just so happens that players figured out a way to use it in an extremely advantageous manner (namely, never really jumping before airdodging and thus taking advantage of the properties assigned to that animation sequence) which changed the gameplay for players with high levels of skill dramatically and was used in a way that the designers of the game did not think would be effective. Joke's on them, I suppose.
- Oversights are still glitches, you're just splitting hairs. In fact, given the opportunity, I bet they'd remove wavedashing from the game entirely. Oh wait, they did- In Brawl.
- Weak argument. They removed l-canceling too. In any case, it's disingenuous to call wavedashing a "game breaker," as the main article implies. Anyone with an iota of Melee knowledge can tell that most people prefer to move around by dashdancing, which is in itself a less important technique than l-canceling, short hopping, edge-hogging, directional influence, and so forth. Wavedashing matters only in the minds of Smashers who want to backlash against the community, which in some cases is justified as we can be an obnoxious bunch, but aim at the right targets. Not even the "Stop Having Fun" Guys Melee purists complained much about wavedashing being removed from Brawl. We recognized that it's an oversight (oversight, glitch, whatever) and that it would be first on the chopping block, and it was OK.
- What really curdles the blood of a Melee purist is the lack of hitstun in Brawl. We feel the removal of hitstun in Brawl undermined the system of combos that worked so well in the previous Smash games and rendered Brawl boring and lifeless. In my experience at the Game FA Qs Melee board, that's just about everyone's number one complaint, whether they love or hate Brawl, and that's the complaint that should be featured in this article. Not some strawman complaint that nobody actually makes about wavedashing. I care little whether we're called "Stop Having Fun" Guys spoilsports, but don't misrepresent us.
- Though I think the SHFG label is slightly inaccurate; isn't it supposed to describe tournament snobs picking on casual players of the same game? This is more game-to-game animosity, and it's between people who are equally "serious" about their respective games rather than Melee pros fussing at a Brawl basement party. Do we have a term for Cranky Kongs who just generally gripe about sequels? Because that would be a perfect fit.

Rogue 7: With regards to Code Geass-Normally I'm a fan of subs, and I haven't seen the Japanese version (probably will once the first season dub finishes and I'm starved for more Geass), but I quite like the dub. Nunally's voice makes me want to take a power drill to my skull, but Johnny Young Bosch does a great job as Lelouche. For their characters, Lloyd, Mao, and C.C. have perfect voices. Other opinions?

MurderMunkey: Ha! I liked the Death Note dub for the same reason. The voices fit the characters very well, especially Misa's annoying, airheaded stupidity.

Possible subversion: Quite a number of people in the Spore community have had this as their mantra for at least since the Creature Creator was released. They would like to have the better, more realistic and also nonexistant "2005 Spore", i.e. the Spore as shown in the pre-scripted, held-together-with-duct-tape-and-wire E3 2005 trailer, with which Will Wright explained what his grand project was actually about. It seems that some people even think that Spore was close to being ready then, and that last three years have been spent on 'dumbing down' the game.

Heroic Jay:

Many "true fans" claim they don't like Final Fantasy XII because it doesn't feel like a "genuine Final Fantasy"(it was too western), but a friend of this troper pointed out that under this logic you could claim that the first installment of the series isn't a genuine FF game either (along with II, III, and IX but nobody hated those either).

I'm left wondering what this is supposed to mean. The complaint about it being "too western" is in the battle system, and 1, 2, 3, and 9 (whether you use the American or Japanese numbering system) are all either straight turn-based or ATB.

Cliché: For some reason, the examples are making this page seem more like Ruined FOREVER, despite it clearly saying in the introduction that only adaptations should be included. Then again, a lot of tropers seem to ignore the introduction and write stuff solely based on the trope name.

Dark Angel Cryo: I removed the following due to it being examples of adaptation decay and sequelitis, not this trope, not to mention the natter and complaining about shows you don't like feel to it.Perhaps somebody more familiar with the examples could add them to their respective pages:

In Japan, Ace Combat 3: Electrosphere was a fast-paced flight arcade game with highly competent teammates, a deeply involving, character-driven, completely non-linear storyline, featuring five young pilots caught in the middle of a struggle between two megacorporations, a guerrilla faction hell-bent on digitalizing everybody's minds, and a secret peacekeeping force where some dark monkey business is going on deep inside; all of that interspersed with beautiful, sleek anime cutscenes. When the game was released in the West, the editors somehow thought Western gamers were a bunch of hotheads who just want mindless, fast-paced action and slaughter, and everything that made the Japanese version stand out from the rest was horribly destroyed. The truly intelligent teammates were removed, making all your missions solo. The original plot was replaced with a bland, highly generic story about a peacekeeping force who just jumps in and ruins enemy stuff every time something bad happens. The anime cutscenes were replaced with text slideshows that just threw an Infodump on what was going on. The entire "story tree" was replaced with a completely linear plot that just goes from point A to point B. Even Dision's quest for causing massive mayhem was Retconned with a computer AI that suddenly went haywire!
Crash Bandicoot, although already mentioned, is an icon ruined by Scrappy programming and rushed games with little to no reasonable plot. One of the latest games, Crash of the Titans, makes this troper and Crash fans sick to their stomachs. Honestly, changing anything from the original games is a bad move - aiming at a newer generation of gamers rather than the overwhelming already-existing fanbase is worse.

Here is what this troper found wrong in the Crash of the Titans on the Game Boy Advance:

You have a life bar. In previous games, Crash only has 1 hitpoint, more being gained as you collect Aku Aku masks.
Come to think of it, Aku Aku hardly ever appears in this game apart from telling Crash to do obvious stuff.
Crash's trademark spin attack is now a PUNCH. Yes, {I Am Not Making This Up}
Crash hijacking mutants? Now that's just wrong.
Yet again, the old revenge plot... overused and over-abused in this game.
TN Ts explode too fast. In Crash 1,2 and 3 on the Playstation they took 3 seconds to detont upon contact. In this game, there is a 3 second fuse but it explodes in like 1.5 seconds. No... :(
Nitro boxes are green (yes...) but instead of looking dangerous (with the gurgling and the bouncing) they look like ordinary green boxes they drop on your head and kill you!
Whoa, Uka Uka (the evil mask) looks surprisingly disturbing. Yes, half a mask with bones in "its" hair is scary stuff for what this game is aimed at (probrably 7-10 year olds, I dunno, these games would never appeal to older gamers, especially Crash veterans).

Dark Angel Cryo: Okay i remmoved these two entire sections because they were just examples of sequels and the artists making subsequent works, which would make it ruined forever. Plus there was a lot of natter.

Music

Metallica are the poster boys of this, if not music artists in general.
- Although some of the complaints are legitimate; hardly anyone defends St. Anger on its own musical merits.
No Doubt when they made Rock Steady.
Anything Outkast did after Aquemini.
Three 6 Mafia shedding their "Darker" Horrorcore sound and tone. And the fact they lost nearly all members in the group didn't help. They went from like 6 members to just 2
Hip-hop in general has been accused of this. Basically people think it sucks because rappers only make party/club songs and or only talks about material wealth, and capitalism.
- There is also a growing contingent of fans who think rap music lost its rebellious nature and aggression, and that the rappers themselves are de facto Uncle Toms to the record industry.
- Listen to rap music of the 80's and early nineties. Back then rap was about pain and emotion, the violence, abusive and awful things they had to live through. Now fast forward to late nineties to 00's. Now rap is about clubs, girls, money and all that crap. Contrast two icons of "Then" and "Now": Tupac and Souljah Boy. Who is better? The one who used emotion to project his feelings (Tupac) or the big-glasses wearing idiot who wants to "super soak that hoe" (Soulja Boy)??
  - Forgetting that even before then, there were a lot of rappers who sang about their pain, hardships, and lives without praising gangs, crime, and popping a cap in anybody. There was rap before there was gangsta rap, after all.
Queens of the Stone Age. Too many line up changes for some fans liking.
Nightwish. Tarja and Annette fans have turned Nightwish song threads on Youtube into undying flamewars.
Anything by Stone Temple Pilots after Purple gets a lot of flak.
Ever since the original singer of this troper's favorite band TNT left and was replaced by ex-Shy singer Tony Mills, the band seems to be taking flack from their fans mostly because of the diversity in the songs, plus the fact that Tony Mills has a similar pitched voice to Tony Harnell, but not nearly as high as Harnell's(just look up any TNT song on YT and look at the comments). However, this troper feels he makes up for it with his dominance over the vocal harmony area.
Our Lady Peace's albums Gravity and Healthy in Paranoid Times, which were the result of the band's label forcing them to appeal to a more mainstream audience. Possibly will be subverted with the soon-to-be-released album Burn Burn, which reverts back to the band's original style.

Tabletop Games - We could just be cheap and say "Whenever a game changes editions", but where's the fun in that?

The inevitable, rancor-fueled outcry over the edition changes of Dungeons And Dragons. When 2nd Edition changed to 3rd Edition after Wizards Of The Coast took over the franchise circa 2000, many long-time players stop playing or cursed the system. Now, that the company has released the 4th edition of the game, there's a similar bile-fueled uproar, only now the Internet is about five times larger and more populous. Inevitably, no one person is going to be 100% pleased with the result. Yet, people had been screaming murder and pillage for months prior to the release of the game, having only seen trace snippets, which was not enough to make an informed decision one way or another. And now that the game has been released, "the sound is like a hundred thousand bats shrieking as they swirl around a jutting spire of obsidian".
- Although that quote is actually about the Fallout Fandom...
  - Hey, if the shoe fits...
- In the interest of not making the Baby Jesus cry, please take all further discussions of this to the forums.
  - To be fair, Baby Jesus cries about loud noises, sudden bright lights, and abrupt changes in temperature, because he's a freaking baby.
Related...Forgotten Realms. As the campaign setting of Dungeons And Dragons with the most popular fluff (though Eberron swiftly became a close contender), the setting is subject to the same rule changes during edition changes. When 2nd edition was released, fans were outraged over the "Time of Troubles" during which quite a few gods were killed and wild magic spots flared up around the world. By the time 3rd edition came around fans were so attached to the new version that they hated Wizards' "ruining" of the setting, in spite of the fact that remarkably few things changed between 2nd edition and 3rd. When 4th Edition came out and the changes were marked—the Spellplague resulting in planar mayhem, the introduction of a new race, the destruction of more than a few kingdoms, the death of several powerful and fan-favorite deities...in short, more changes than occurred with the Time Of Troubles—the fans screamed bloody murder.
The various edition changes seen in Shadowrun over the years probably come in second after D&D. It seems that every new edition splits the fan base...
- In fact, pretty much every Tabletop Game that survives long enough to have multiple editions suffers from this. Which is unfortunate, as it often means that legitimate complaints end up being buried in all the NERD RAGE.
Mage Knight was once the king of miniature gaming... then WizKids unleashed Mage Knight 2.0, a massive overhaul to the game system. Players howled in protest, WizKids didn't change it back, and the game bled players until it died. Of course, one of the changes was that every single one of the player's old figures could not be played under the new rules, thus rendering everyone's entire collection, which they had spent years and untold dollars on (Tabletop games are not cheap), worthless. That does suck.
WizKids again, this time averting it: Hero Clix is the current king of miniature gaming, and over the last two years, WizKids has been putting it through a massive overhaul that's completely changed the way the game plays. However, they've done it in small steps, giving the fanbase time to adjust before things change again, and they learned from their earlier mistake and made sure that old figures are still playble. The fans have taken it well.
After Time of Judgment ended the original incarnation of The World Of Darkness, White Wolf began to release the new version. Among other changes, each series was decentralized (there is a core "mechanics" book that each line's main book refers to), the system was overhauled (it's now much harder to botch a roll and easier to score critical succcesses), and most notably, due to the giant Thirty Xanatos Pileup the original story suffered, the Metaplot concept was thrown out almost entirely. It is now five gamelines into the new system and some fans still haven't quieted down.
- Now /six/ gamelines, and counting...
There has been backlash from "Cluedo" (Or Clue to American) fans after Hasbro announced an update to the classic board game by Christmas, as they had deemed it "Too Stuffy for the 21st century". The updated game (which had been almost unchanged since 1949) features new characters, different weapons, and will now give each player a "Special power" ,and the murderer somehow will have the power to kill off other players mid-game. (How they'll do that without revealing themselves remains to be seen...)
As mentioned above, players of Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer40000 are prone to this with new editions, though not so much new Codexes (rules for individual factions) because the updates take so long that the fans are actually glad when their beloved army is finally updated. Great strategy. Heck, This Troper got a sneak peak at the new Space Marine codex (one of the factions not really in need of an update, being the obvious creator favourites) and actually liked what he saw very much. For starters: They took the best tank, and added flamethrowers to it.
- On the other hand, it's been ten freaking years since the Dark Eldar got a new codex, but who cares about those perverted extradimensional space pirates?

Nezumi: Okay, this page can no longer seem to decide what it wants to be. Half of the examples are using it for its apparent original purpose of pointing out instances where people complain that an adaptation ruined something for no better reason than that it's different. The other half are the exact sort of Fan Dumb Complaining About Shows You Dont Like issues that it's supposed to be pointing out. Clearly, whichever way we err, we need to weed about half the examples and rewrite the opening to match, as it's currently just a muddled mess.

Rann: Just weeded out complaining about 4th edition D&D under this. Could we keep the Fan Dumb down at least a LITTLE people? If you want to state opinion as fact, go find some applicable forum, I'm sure you can get a nice hive mind of support going there rather than seeking one here.

Ununnilium:

There are approximately 100 trillion too many examples to list comprehensively. Suffice to say, every time a new edition of anything is released, there'll be an Internet Backdraft the size of the Tarrasque.

This is a completely pointless example. It just says "They Changed It, Now It Sucks! exists for Tabletop Games".

JP 4490: Cut this, and made a bit of a rewrite to the main entry:

Some long-time fans were annoyed at the changes made to the story in the The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy film adaptation. Two problems with that: The radio plays, the novels, and the TV miniseries all had significant storyline differences from one another (one joke in the fandom goes that there is no canon, only suggestions), and the most significant additions to the movie's storyline were all of Douglas Adams' own invention.
- Sure, a few scenes were changed around from adaptation to adaptation, but generally it was all coherent, if not exactly plot-based. Things such as Deep Thought being on Magrathea, the fact that the characters go to Deep Thought for the Question in spite of the fact that it was explicitly stated that Deep Thought had to design another computer to find this out, and the mice being Lunkwell and Fook made no sense. That, and Zaphod has been dumbed into The Ditz (whereas he was rather intelligent in the books, and just played dumb to avoid working) and Arthur has become a coward. Towels are never explained, and most conflict resolution is just too damn convienent—Ford shows up with beer which he then uses to bribe those demolishing Arthur's house (in spite of the fact that he knew nothing of the house's impending demolishion, and was planning on taking Arthur to a pub) and Arthur escaping not by feeding the mice a fake Question, but merely because his restraints are too weak are cop-outs. That, and they cut the best bits in favor of adding a (largely unnessiary) plotline—the list goes on and on...
  - On a side note, the fact that Adams wrote the majority of it does not justify anything. Even geniuses have their off-days.

That whole block of a reply sounds too much to me like complaining; the point of this trope is not for you to actually start complaining about adaptations.

I am aware that the movie's changes are a lot more major compared to the ones in the 'original' versions - some examples could be worked into the entry, but they should be kept neutral (not like the rant above).

zeroplusalpha: Just raising a minor point about the comment under the Digimon example on the main page. Japanese is not a tonal language, which is what I think is being described as a 'pitch-accent' language, unlike Mandarin, Cantonese or Thai (which famously has about nine tones). Without rising and falling tones to distinguish one syllable from another, the stress placed on them is actually of primary importance, much like English. For example, the word for heart (as in absence makes it grow fonder, not as in the physical organ) is composed of three syllables , Ko-ko-ro: the Japanese equivalent of received pronunciation proscribes the stress being placed on the first syllable, KO-ko-ro. Misplaced stress is frequently the source of much hilarity for Japanese speakers when they hear things like a-RI-ga-TO. Just imagine if someone unwisely pronounced it the KamehaMAYha.

SSJ Dk Crew: I'm not sure where to put this, exactly. Granted, there are people so fan-y that they will hate something solely BECAUSE of a change, no matter what that change is, but for some reason, the description of this trope sounds like it's trying to invalidate people complaining about things that are fun, new or exciting for young people. To provide a very painful, stinging example, Star Trek. I felt that the adaptation between the early seasons of TNG and the latter seasons was a step down, because it lost some of the idealism and goofy fun that earlier seasons and classic trek had. I felt that the recent movie was a COLLOSSAL step down from those earlier shows, because it had virtually no idealism and everything was more or less solved with violence. Sure, popular opinion may be that these changes make the series/movie more enjoyable and help bring it to a broader audience that it might not reach otherwise, but it also leaves idealistic folks looking for goofy fun without anything new to watch.

My main question is this; is this whole trope just putting down people for not wanting to see the things that are currently popular, or is it more about the fandom's determination to decry anything different as bad and unlikable, regardless of how insignificant the change is, or how well it's handled?

I only ask, because the examples at the top of the page are so vague that they don't really get the point across. It says "it doesn't matter that Bob's bald, Alice doesn't die, the football game was changed to a horse race and they cut the watermelon scene, right?" Except for the watermellon scene thing, and possibly the bald bit, some of those things could ruin a movie/series/episode/version of something. Changing football to a horse race can be bad if you're trying to tell a story about teamwork, and as for someone not dying, when they did in the original, in some cases, that's alright, while in other cases... Would it be the same if Bambi's mother pulled through?

I guess what I'm saying is that changes which can be described as minor can turn a whole installment of a long-running and respected series into a Broken Aesop or Adaptation Decay, create a Designated Hero, change the Big Bad entirely, destroy the flow or feel of the story, and be perfectly legitimate things to be upset over as a result. Is there a trope for times when a series is based on something very non-standard, and jumps the shark in a newer adaptation because it tries to make all its characters seem young, fun, cool and sparkly?

______

Blaggerbat: I removed the following comment from the Fullmetal Alchemist entry:

Though the anime-ending just was awful on it's own. This troper never read the manga and could still find a lot of plotholes in the anime and the film. For example that equivalent exchange was completely ignored. (one stone that takes tens of thousands of people to create, only being able to prolong the life of one person and then being useless, is not equal)

Since your assessment is a) not related to the actual topic of the page, and b) essentially a Just Bugs Me entry, I removed it. This trope relates only to the fan practice of complaining due to changes from an accepted formula/source, not complaints about debatable plot holes found by people who have never read the source. The ending being "awful" is also undoubtedly an example of both Your Mileage May Vary and Complaining About Endings You Don't Like, and your thoughts on it should be taken to the forums.

KJMackley: I did a general clean-up and made a note that this page is in general mocking the attitude of Fan Dumb whining about Adaptation Decay really quickly. Anytime someone goes "And this is something else the producers did wrong..." it is not this trope. This example was only notable because it had links, but otherwise shows how this trope can easily turn into tropers actually going off on "They Changed It, Now It Sucks!."

Batman: Arkham Asylum. Harley Quinn: WRONG WRONG WRONG!◊ Then there is Bane: Seriously.◊
- Wait, what? Is Bane even any different? Like at all? Okay, so the Venom tank on his back is slightly larger. Fans are actually complaining about this...?
  - Bane's mask in the comics covered his mouth. That's the only real difference I can spot.

Legit question: Why is calling out a general fan reaction to a series merit instant deletion just because it's so prevalent here? Because not everyone here agrees with the generally negative consensus regarding Ben 10 Alien Force, and the approach TV Tropes takes towards discussing this show on 90% of its mentions fits this trope to a T. Is it because my edit dared to go against consensus?

Twin Bird:

Actual comment made at an anime forum: "It's one thing to say 'Sorry, but if we don't cut it we can't broadcast it. Take your pick.' And a competely different thing to have the chutzpah to actually sell changes as improvements. I'm asking everybody to imagine for a few seconds a Japanese licensee of a Hollywood movie on a press conference going like 'Well, we had to make some cuts but one the other hand this allowed us to fix some stupid mistakes this Cameron guy did, so in the end it all balances out.'" For the record, we're supposed to think that it would be bad.

Yeah...I'm just going to cut this. Seems too much like someone's trying to shoehorn in a Take That! at Cameron (probably Titanic...just forget he started Terminator), and for nearly anyone, almost certainly including Report Siht, there's a name you could replace "Cameron" with that would piss them off. Really...it's a pretty well-reasoned argument, that tries to meet the dubbers halfway, so...I don't see what it's doing here.

Ungvichian: Re-instated this entry, editing out the Cameron slam, and adding a little extra context.

Squall: Out of curiosity, if They Changed It, Now It Sucks! is not the trope to include legitimate They Changed It And Now It Does, In Fact, SUCK...which trope would it be instead?

BritBllt: I'd call that Adaptation Decay.

Mac Phisto: is there a Trope page that ISN'T mocking of critical fans? Surely you must admit, that in some cases these complaints are justified?

BritBllt: That's bugging me too. Sometimes they changed it, and it sucked. I just saw a page where a fan pre-empted complaints by saying the consensus of professional critics were crying "they changed it now it sucks", instead of, you know, Adaptation Decay. While They Changed It, Now It Sucks! exists, the number of people using it to ignore real complaints seems bigger than the actual "they changed it now it sucks" gripers.

Userless: I've just found Rurouni Kenshin up on You Tube (under it's alternate name Samurai X), and having seen the earlier dub, I've noticed that most of the dialog has been rescripted, as well as a couple voices are different. Bit of a shock. I'd try adding this to the main They Changed It page, but it'd probably be best if I mention the change here and see if anyone else agrees.

Charred Knight: That's not this topic They Changed It, Now It Sucks! is for changes where the fandumb automatically hates it because it's different. What you saw was Sony's attempt to dub Rurouni Kenshin under the name Samurai X, from what I have heard (don't really have the time to check out the dub) it was actually really bad, and was completely re-dub when Media Blaster got the TV series and released it on DVD.

Charred Knight: This seems more to just be complaining about a comic you didn't like. Frankly, it was fairly well received as people where tired of the "Wolverine has a mysterious past and nothing is known about him" that constantly showed up.

Let us not forget that there was a moment of Fan Dumb from (at the time)Marvel Editor-In-Chief Avi Arad with the X-movies. Apparently, he was worried that the Wolverine origin depicted in the films would be taken as the 'real' story, so he commissioned Wolverine: Origins, in which a pre-power Wolverine was an annoying emo teenager.
What did he think when parts of said comic were adapted into the Wolverine movie, then?

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