Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Ambiguous Name
, started by DoctorDetective on Aug 3rd 2014 at 4:19:17 AM
Doctor Detective
Could this use a new name? It just seems not very indicative. Unless you actually read Archie comics, you have to just memorize or guess which one means what.
Hide / Show Replies
You could propose a rename in the Trope Repair Shop, but given the 2700+ inbounds, you'll have to demonstrate misuse with a Wick Check.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Honestly, I agree. I don't mind the name, but entries that say "X being the Betty, Y being the Veronica" are less than useless to me.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
I think I tried to get this done a while back and got told where to shove it in no uncertain terms. You'll never get this renamed as TV Tropes is overrun by crazed Archie fans who don't get that renaming this to something like "Girl Next Door and The Vamp" would be clearer to just about everyone.
Nothing of the sort happened and "Crazed Archie fans" has nothing to do with it.
If you're proposing action in TRS then the burden is on you to prove it's warranted. With 1,500 wicks and 2,700 inbounds, on the surface, this is a very successful trope. Yes, even a weird and obscure name can work if it has time to take root—and Archie has been around for over seventy years.
If the name is working then there's no need to change it. If people are leaving "X is Betty, Y is Veronica" examples then maybe a clean-up project is required, or perhaps a modification to the description to remind people that those are Zero Context Examples. But the responsibility of proving there is a problem is on whoever brings it up, because we've had problems with "IDK the trope is broken, you fix it" topics in the past.
Edited by 104.32.213.23 "But don't give up hope. Everyone is cured sooner or later. In the end we shall shoot you." - O'Brien, 1984
I presented a couple of reasonable arguments for a change and someone rather than engaging in discussion locked the thread within ten minutes. Perhaps "got told where to shove it" is hyperbole but it was obvious they weren't interested in dicussing it. This is what the Other Wiki calls "systemic bias" - because Archie comics have pervaded US culture so thoroughly the trope name seems perfectly reasonable for someone from that cultural background but to the rest of the world it simply makes no sense.
Again: is the trope broken? That's on you to prove with a wick check. There's a lot of work to be done around the wiki and only so much time for everyone interested in doing it. If people understand the name Betty and Veronica and are using it correctly then the name is at least functional and doesn't need to be changed.
Among other things, what you're asking is for people to change 1,500 wicks to a new name. That's a ton of work to be done—so prove that it needs to be done. Providing that proof is one of the TRS rules, there's nothing to discuss if the trope isn't in need of repair.
"But don't give up hope. Everyone is cured sooner or later. In the end we shall shoot you." - O'Brien, 1984
Here's the TRS thread in question. No mention of being told where to shove it, and no evidence of being shut down because we're desperate to cling to the old name.
I might do a wick check eventually. I don't think TV Tropes is desperate to cling to the old name, but the name isn't very good. I do see it get used as just plain Love Triangle, or at least examples where the context doesn't paint it any more than it.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
I'd appreciate a wick check or just a page check. I didn't know about what the names meant until I got involved in this site. The only problem with a name change is I don't think there's one thing to call Veronica.
Incidentally, I find the (now cutlisted) alternate name of Ginger Or Mary Ann to be much clearer. I feel like Gilligans Island, especially those two, are much more myopic than Archie.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
I tried a repair shop thread, too. I even checked wiks, and everything. Nothing came of it. It's seriously a problem, though, because I keep having to come back here when other pages pull that "the Betty to X's Veronica" crap on other page.
Wizzard
" In a Tomboy and Girly Girl (and its Distaff Counterpart Sensitive Guy and Manly Man) and Light Feminine Dark Feminine (and its Distaff Counterpart Noble Male, Roguish Male) pairing, the Betty will be the Girly Girl (and its genderflipped variant Sensitive Guy) and Light Feminine (and its genderflipped variant Noble Male) while the Veronica will be the Tomboy (and its genderflipped variant Manly Man) and Dark Feminine (and its genderflipped counterpart Roguish Male). "
I don't think Betty = Girly Girl and Veronica = Tomboy is necessarily the case. A "sweet, reliable, everyday Girl Next Door type" might be a sporty Wrench Wench, while "alluring, exotic, and edgy, but has more of a mischievous or icy personality" could mean a Rich Bitch who has no interest in anything except being glamorous. In fact, isn't that the case with the Trope Namer?
Edited by 86.138.213.44 Hide / Show Replies
I agree. It's like the picture. Betty might be academic, neither a Tomboy or Girly Girl. Veronica is probably feminine in a sexy kind of way.
I took out that whole paragraph and directed anyone who disagrees here.
Someone added the Betty and Veronica thing to Sensitive Guy and Manly Man. I told him to bring it here.
I removed the following example partly because it doesn't say who is who is the Betty and who is the Veronica, partly because it expresses uncertainty of whether it is an example and partly because it links to the disambiguation Tenchi Solution.
- Played with and in doing so arguably averted in Skies of Arcadia, where Vyse is between the Mysterious Waif Fina and his best friend Aika, who happens to be a pirate (to be fair, Vyse himself is also a pirate). The aversion comes from the fact that aside from a few Ship Tease moments (which seem to lean towards a Tenchi Solution if anything) the plot is wholly unconcerned with the main characters' love life, unlike the vast majority of RPGs to come out around the same time.
Apparently, I guessed that the name in the Image's spoiler was Betty because "Veronica" was too long to fit in there.
- Willow from Buffy The Vampire Slayer was the Betty to Xander's Archie. She was a genuine love interest for Xander, but he was far more drawn, in different ways, towards two different Veronicas: Buffy and Cordelia. (This being Joss Whedon, when Xander finally started to return Willow's interest, it trashed his relationship with Cordelia, nearly trashed Willow's relationship with Oz, and did not lead to Xander and Willow living together happily ever after.)
- Early seasons also has the gender-flipped version with Buffy as Archie, Xander as Betty and Angel as Veronica.
- Except Angel is more of a Betty than Xander.
- And Buffy never ever showed even the slightest interest for Xander.
- And Xander got over Buffy very fast.
- Every one of Buffy's human love interests/potential love interests (except for Parker) was a Betty with her vampire lovers as Veronicas.
- I'm completely confused about the last entry. There was no potential love interest in concurrence to neither Angel nor Spike present. Buffys only human love interest Riley occured in the time between Angel and Spike and had no vampire at concurrence at all - Spike wasnt romantically interested in Buffy yet and Angel had vanished into his own show.
- Buffy and Faith had a strong Betty and Veronica vibe going, although the guy playing Archie changed regularly. Xander, Angel, Riley, Spike, and Robin all took turns - usually fairly brief - in the Archie seat. For those keeping score, Buffy was simultaneously the Veronica to Willow's Betty and the Betty to Faith's Veronica. There's probably a lesson here.
- In the relationships between Buffy, Angel, and Cordelia, Cordelia initially was the Veronica, while Angel was interested in the Betty. Later, on the spin-off, she takes the role of best friend, playing Betty to Darla's Veronica. Which ones she and Buffy were to each other at this point is debatable.
- A gender-flipped Angel example: Fred (Archie) had to choose between the tough, street-smart former gang leader Gunn (Veronica) and the bookish, nerdy smart guy Wes (Betty). Eventually, she chose her Veronica, then broke up with him, turned to her Betty, died, became an ancient goddess, nearly killed both of them (one inadvertently), then Wes died. Long story.
- Willow was also Oz's Betty, as opposed to sexy werewolf Veruca. Betty wins, but then Oz leaves, realising that he's a danger to people and has to go figure out his condition before he can be around her.
- Also, the Veronica dies while Betty becomes a lesbian. Poor Oz.
- In season 8, Willow's girlfriend Kennedy was her Betty, with Willow's mentor/lover Aluwyn, the snake lady from a magical dimension, as Veronica.
- Early seasons also has the gender-flipped version with Buffy as Archie, Xander as Betty and Angel as Veronica.
As the page says, they (Betty and Veronica) don't have to have an Archie so it doesn't matter how Buffy treats Angel and Xander but please do tell how a Tall, Dark, and Handsome vampire who has killed people is not the exotic and dangerous Veronica.
Just wondering; is it possible for these two to be on friendly terms with each other, but there just happens to be a guy who can't decide between the two? Like, neither is entirely aware of the conflict they're causing, or if they are, then they could care less because the one wishes to be Just Friends and the other is asexual. Would make for an interesting subversion, maybe.
Edited by GirlwithAPlot
Originally Veronica got the upper hand because Betty had _already rejected_ Archie. She only got interested in him once his attention was redeployed on Veronica.
No Dragon Power
Just wondering, any Girls love exampales?
With the power of a dragon I can make up for my inability to spill.
Removed the horribly shoehorned H.M.S. Pinafore example. Rich Suitor, Poor Suitor fits it much better.
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Make a Spear Counterpart for
, started by Vree on Sep 15th 2010 at 7:27:26 PM
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman