Can we add Contrasting Sequel Antagonist on Yhwach’s page since he’s the main villain of the post timskip half and compare him to Aizen the main villain of the pre timeskip half?
Edited by Duncril01
Should Yhwach count as a Greater-Scope Villain since his villainy is tied to Aizen’s actions?
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No. A Greater-Scope Villain is one whose villainy or presence is the ultimate cause or foundation for the rest of the evil within the series. Yhwach really had nothing to do with what Aizen did; Aizen's motives for it had more to do with Ichibe and Tsunayashiro than anything Yhwach did.
In addition, his actions are tied directly to the plot. A Greater-Scope Villain is part of the setting, somewhere in the background. They have no direct bearing on the plot.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
This has been removed before for being a shoehorn, but readded without edit reason. I've brought it here to stop an Edit War from kicking off.
Does it apply?
- Nice Job Fixing It, Villain: Once he's defeated Ichigo and taken his powers, he decides to use Auswahlen on the remaining Sternritter. At the very least, this saved Uryu, who was completely at Haschwalth's mercy and about to be finished off, and would end up assisting in his his defeat by temporarily shutting off his powers. He also relieved the Soul Reapers of having to deal with Gerald, whose Story-Breaker Power had proven impossible for them for them to overcome even when his powers were supposed to have been frozen, and would have spelled trouble for their society based on his size alone if left to rampage.
I'd say so. If Yhwach hadn't used the Auswhalen, then Haschwalth (presumably) would have killed Uryuu (removing an element of Yhwach's own defeat), and Gerald could have killed Byakuya, Toshiro, Kenpachi, and the other Soul Reapers; to say nothing of Lille Barro and his unseen fight with Aizen.
Both Gerard and Lille had very little to do with what Yhwach was doing at the time, or how Yhwach was defeated. Them living or dying therefore doesn't impact Yhwach's own success or defeat.
We actually don't know whether Auswahlen saved Uryuu or not. We didn't know it at the time, we do find out shortly afterwards that Ryuuken and Isshin are there. It's as Uryuu is leaving the fight that Ryuuken reveals his presence. We know that Haschwalth was confident that it was all over for Uryuu. We also know that he was fully expecting Yhwach to perform Auswahlen on him. Everything else is fandom debate.
The key factors in Yhwach's defeat are Ryuuken's arrow, Uryuu's Schrift, Aizen's power, Haschwalth's fake dream, and Ichigo being Ichigo.
Performing Auswahlen on Haschwalth does not change the availability of the arrow, Aizen's role, Haschwalth's fake dream or Ichigo's role. It only changes the role Uryuu played. And we have absolutely no idea if Ryuuken could have successfully fired the arrow; we've just got guesswork for that one.
I think the closest we can get to a Nice Job Fixing It, Villain moment is when Yhwach defeated Ichigo before he stepped through the portal. He was fighting only Ichigo and Orihime. Neither Tskishima nor Uryuu could get there in time for that, and Aizen was in a different location watching the fight from a distance. Yhwach deliberately left Ichigo alive and defeated, and even knew that Ichigo's weapon and power would be restored. He then travelled to the one location that allowed Aizen to get involved, which bought time for Tsukishima, Ryuuken and Uryuu to play their parts.
So, he went from a position where he had completely defeated and de-powered Ichigo before any of the other elements vital to his death could come together and unite, to giving all those elements the opportunity to do just that. Solely because he decided for a reason he didn't explain well to let Ichigo re-power and come after him.
So, that's really the only area that's relevant to this trope.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
It enabled him to survive his fight with Haschwalth. That's pretty much all he used it for.
Forgot About His Powers was put on the page because he died without using Yamamoto's Bankai. I removed it because the only time he could have used it, he didn't use any of his huge range of powers that Ichigo could do nothing about, and there was a partial explanation for why.
The entry was readded as Forgotten Phlebotinum, with the edit reason being that the point is that he never used Yamamoto's Bankai. It's also now a Zero Context Example, so it'll need re-editing anyway.
My point is that he never used a lot of things and, because there's a partial explanation for why, it's not one of the 'Forgotten' tropes (which are for no explanation situations). It's Holding Back the Phlebotinum instead.
My suggested write-up for the situation is this:
- Holding Back the Phlebotinum: Yhwach uses minimal power when dealing with any situation because he's too powerful for anything to threaten him and can see all possible futures to counter them before they happen — with the sole exception of Uryuu. During his final battle, he fights only with his sword and uses none of his abilities, from arrows to Sklaverie to Yamamoto's stolen Bankai to the Soul King's stolen power. This allows Uryuu to completely de-power him just long enough for Ichigo to strike the killing blow. Only then does Yhwach realise that he did actually foresee Ichigo killing him so could have countered it from happening. However, he dismissed it as a bad dream because Haschwalth deliberately passed the vision to him while he was sleeping to trick him. As a result, Yhwach dies in a straight sword-fight with an opponent who was unable to handle any of the abilities Yhwach could have used to end the fight before Uryuu's intervention.
Sorry, for the late reply, I just noticed the discussion now.
I think that entry gives the wrong impression. Uryuu wasn't able to strike Yhwach because he hold back and neither was his death. Yhwach did not use any of his extensive abilities, but there was also at no point any need to. He had soundly defeated Aizen and Ichigo before Uryuu shot the arrow and was going to destroy the Seretei and bring all realms together for his new world. Once Uryuu shot him, there was nothing he could do, since all of his abilities were gone. His death and not using any of his abilities aren't really connected. If even if he had used any of his other abilities against Ichigo and Aizen, Uryuu would still have shot him and Yhwach would still lose.
Also, I think it was mentioned that Yhwach is very disgusted by Yamamoto's Bankai, especially the necromantic aspects of the South ability. Given what he thinks about death, him not using his Bankai may either be Honor Before Reason or Even Evil Has Standards.
Royd was the one who mentioned being disgusted by Yamamoto's Bankai. There was enough going on with Yamamoto's surprise by some of the reactions 'Yhwach' was making for there to be a big question mark over how accurately Royd represented Yhwach's personality. As result, Royd's comment about the Bankai can't be used to inform us on what Yhwach's thoughts on the matter are.
I've got no problem with the argument that it was game over once Uryuu shot him because I've used that exact point in the Holding Back the Phlebotinum example above. So that point is already covered.
The problem is that what Yhwach could have done before Uryuu's arrow is contestable — and has been contested. My personal preference is for there to be no Phlebotinum trope to be on the page. However, when fans point out that there's an entire plethora of abilities we know he has and which he did not use prior to Uryuu's involvement, they're not wrong.
Since fans have been messing about with tropes to capture this on the page for a long time, my suggested compromise was the Holding Back the Phlebotinum entry. As you can see further down this Discussion Page, the subject has cropped up in various guises over time (see the Nice Job Fixing It, Villain and Stupid Evil threads below).
I guarantee someone is going to come along and resurrect the issue. What you're debating here is your personal opinion on why he didn't use those abilities during the fight — but the fact that you have an opinion is an acknowledgement that he has a range of abilities that he didn't use. You don't have a problem with that because you feel it makes sense. I also don't have problem with it for relatively similar reasons to you, but it doesn't change the fact that the acknowledgement is there even by us (via the statement 'yeah, but we think it makes sense that these things didn't happen').
So, the issue has been:
- He has a range of abilities he didn't use during the fight.
- We know that Ichigo cannot handle most of those unused abilities.
- We know Yhwach cannot foresee anything Uryuu might do.
- Therefore, are Points 1 & 2 tropable?
- Cue fans periodically chopping and changing tropes on the page in an attempt to capture Points 1 & 2. Something that is difficult because fans have different interpretations of why Points 1 & 2 happened, hence disagreements over which trope to use.
- I have no skin in this game. I'm just trying to get the fandom to solve this issue once and for all — I don't particularly care what the solution ends up being.
I should have worded what I meant better. I agree that he didn't use all his powers, but what I didn't agree with was that this led to his defeat. The way the entry was worded makes it look like that Yhwach could have avoided being shot by the arrow if he didn't hold back and that he likewise could have done something afterwards, both which are not the case. Also he did use the powers of the Soul King, since they only manifest so far within the shadows. It's also unknown if he can use Sklaverei. That ability can only be achieved in Vollständig and we don't know if he even has that ability.
If he hadn't held back he could have incapacitated Aizen and killed Ichigo. Ishida may still have shot him with the power-sealing arrow, but with Ichigo unable to capitalize on that he would have recovered.
But Aizen was incapacitated in the end. And he was able to soundly defeat Ichigo with just the Almighty. He simply didn't chose to kill Ichigo, which is an entirely different thing, as he was more busy with destroying the Seretei.
I meant kill Ichigo in the final final battle where it's Ichigo, Renji, and Aizen vs. Yhwach.
So do I. Ichigo was about to be consumed by the shadows that were destroying the Seretei. If it wasn't for Uryuu he would have ended up like Aizen.
Nice Job Fixing It, Villain: His propensity to kill off his own subordinates immediately when he feels he no longer needs them, not only ends up saving the lives of Uryu and most of the Gotei 13 Captains and Vice-Captains, but the silvery substance which is left behind by the Auswählen is used against him as a Power Nullifier, leading to his ultimate defeat.
This has been contested due to Ywach not intending to 'fix anything,' but just "be evil for the sake of evil." However, the trope page itself explicitly states the consequences isn't necessarily intentional on the villain's part to begin with.
So should this be included or not?
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Well, let's look at the first paragraph of the trope:
- Basically, the heroes have a problem. It could range from personal, to being vital in their quests.
- In this case, the problem is Yhwach himself or his minions.
- Then an antagonist does something, either accidentally or deliberately but with an unintended effect, that instead fixes this problem nicely.
- Yhwach's Holy Selection killed several Stern Ritter, including some who had yet to be defeated. And at least one (Haschwalth) who was about to kill an enemy.
- The silver created from the Holy Selection was eventually used to kill Yhwach himself. Shot by the very same person Yhwach himself saved.
I'd argue that that it fits the trope, although the Power Nullifier magical MacGuffin may ALSO be Hoist by His Own Petard.
Edited by KingZeal
The problem is that Uryuu did not need to survive Haschwalth for the arrow to be used against Yhwach. Uryuu himself didn't even know the arrow existed until after the Haschwalth fight. Given that Ryuuken created it and was carrying it, had Uryuu been unable to keep going (either due to injury or death), Ryuuken would still have had the arrow in his possession.
We don't know if Ryuuken could have shot the arrow because that scenario never happened, but it creates enough of an alternative situation in-universe that we cannot say Yhwach automatically brought doom on himself by not having Uryuu killed before taking out Haschwalth.
The arrow was also created from events that occurred nine years earlier, so any actions that were occurring during the current time frame are irrelevant to Ryuuken's creation and ownership of the arrow. What matters is Ryuuken's existence - why Yhwach has completely ignored his existence for the past nine years which gave Ryuuken the opportunity to harvest the silver, forge the arrow, hide its existence for nine years and then make it into the Royal Realm after the gateways had been closed (using an old, stolen key), without Yhwach apparently factoring him to his plans at all.
This sounds more like Hoist by His Own Petard to me, but it's hard to tell given that the rushed ending means we'll never get an explanation for the Yhwach/Ryuuken history, leaving us to guess and interpret nine years that were mostly off-panel. It's hard to trope on the basis of guessing.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
- What the Hell, Hero?: Gives one to Ichigo in his last moments, saying that be killing him Ichigo has condemned the world to continue experiencing death by preventing him from absorbing all three worlds within himself and thereby creating a world "without fear of death." Ichigo isn't affected, and even Aizen doesn't agree.
This isn't What the Hell, Hero? because Ichigo didn't do anything wrong, the author doesn't need to show he knows the hero screwed up by having a character lampshade it. As even Aizen indicates, Yhwach's just completely wrong about this.
However, given that Yhwach really does believe he was trying to do something good, I'm sure there's an appropriate trope for villains who really think they doing something everyone will thank them for and cannot comprehend that this isn't the case.
Anyone know what the trope is?
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading. Hide / Show Replies
I believe Visionary Villain would fit.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Visionary Villain does look like a good fit.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Brought the following entry here. It's just complaining, so needs a rewrite at best. I'm not convinced the trope applies, however. He feeds off the souls he kills, which he requires to prevent himself regressing back to his original state. That makes him very cavelier about life because it all exists to service his own state of being. That's been said by both him and others in the manga.
As to the gate. Yes, we all know the hero is going to power up and follow him through. So does Yhwach, which his speech makes clear. Whether or not he makes Aizen's mistake has yet to be seen (we can guess that he will), but we can't trope something that's in progress because we don't know where that's going.
- Stupid Evil: Throughout the entire course of the Thousand Year Blood War, Yhwach has made decisions that are either stupid, unnecessary, or some combination of both, and only seem to happen because of Yhwach's whim. He pointlessly kills his minions, he invades Seireitei, decides to pull back and give them time to form a strategy while already winning the battle, and then just attacks three days later, coming back with the stolen Bankai only to begin losing. He even sacrifices his Stern Ritter (i.e. ample soldiers to overwhelm opponents through sheer attrition) to empower his "elite" Stern Ritters, each of whom already have their own great powers and transformations. He even later sacrifices Jugram and Gerard, possibly his strongest and most loyal servants, despite having the power of all other 24 Stern Ritter, The Almighty, and whatever else Tensa Zangetsu could possibly have given him that he didn't already have. He left opened a gate to where he was heading, and for anyone else to enter.
The gate thing is premature. We don't know why he left the gate open: Maybe it's due to stupidity, or maybe he saw with his power that even if he closes the gate his enemies will just open another, or maybe it's all a trap for anyone stupid enough to try using the gate. We have no way to know just yet.
The following were originally commented out because Yhwach has a habit of calling characters who are not his biological children "sons" because all Quincies are spiritually related regardless of biological relationship, and he claims to be the origin and "father" of all Quincies. He then refers to the Soul King as his "father" and the Soul King's sentient, dismembered arm as a "child" of the Soul King.
The affected examples are these:
- Antagonistic Offspring: When he stabs the Soul King through the chest, Yhwach refers to the Soul King as his father, which if true would be a clear example of this.
- Divine Parentage: He calls the Soul King his father, and the Soul King is the closest symbol of something divine in the manga.
- Self-Made Orphan: By killing the Soul King, who he claims to be his own father.
Additional issues with these tropes:
- Antagonistic Offspring (Examples Are Not Arguable - see above)
- Divine Parentage: Several characters have been referred to as gods (or called themselves gods) in the show - Barragan, Aizen, Yhwach, the Soul King. Even Lille has crossed that line. The Soul King has additionally been stated to have been created by the Shinigami in some unexplained way. So, the issue of divine parentage is questionable even if the Soul King is genuinely Yhwach's father. It's an Examples Are Not Arguable situation for now.
- Self-Made Orphan: Even if the Soul King is Yhwach's biological father, we know absolutely nothing about his mother, so can't trope this anyway.
And A Nazi by Any Other Name should be added to his profile as well.
I also propose another new article to this site; I call it Wham Arc, if there is enough actual plot, no plotless-ness, like One Piece and Bleach, and enough Wham Episodes and Wham Lines; then there should be a Wham Arc, especially if it is till the very end.
Edited by NobodyNever Hide / Show Replies
That's a question for YKTTW, and I find it rather marginal.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fixed your links. Image Picking is the usual place for suggesting images, by the way.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Call me Stick
Anybody else getting Humanoid Abomination vibes off him now? The splitting eyes...
Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted. Hide / Show Replies
Not yet. As far as we know, he's still as "human" as any other character in this series.
Agreed. Not yet.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Original No-Sell example was:
- No-Sell: Thanks to "The Almighty", once he understands a person's power, it cannot affect him anymore.
I removed it with the edit reason: 'He didn't No Sell it and it was said that he becomes almost impossible to defeat, not that the power no longer affects him.'
It was readded without edit reason, the example changed to:
- No-Sell: Nullifies and repairs all of Ichibie's power altering abilities. Implied that he can do this to any ability he encounters due to his Schrift "The Almighty" power.
The new example ignores my edit reason. Haschwalth indicated that Yhwach has to learn how a power works before his Schrift can defeat it. He didn't say Yhwach will never be affected again, he said that Yhwach is almost impossible to defeat. We've spent several chapters watching Yhwach earn that 'impossible to defeat' status - Ichibei has been beating Yhwach to a pulp while Yhwach analysed Ichibei's power and learned everything he could about it before finally having enough knowledge to counter.
This seems more like a variant of Awesomeness by Analysis or a super-compressed, supernatural Taught by Experience, not No-Sell.
Edited by 78.148.51.161 If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading. Hide / Show Replies
No, it's fully covered in Adaptive Ability, where his Schrift makes him mostly impervious to every technique he's witnessed. Perhaps an Exaggerated Trope because he's cancelling Ichibei's equivalent of a bankai mere minutes after getting hit by it.
And I just noticed Adaptive Ability got eaten by Data Vampires.
Edited by 76.10.140.215 "They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Adaptive Ability works for me.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Should we add Ancient Evil to Yhwach since he’s over 1200 years old and is also and evil.