Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Okay, let's get this over with.

AKIO

• Akio from ''Revolutionary Girl Utena' is the epitome of heartless, callous selfishness. Once the heroic Dios, Akio grew disillusioned with being the hero and allowed his sister Anthy to be tortured for what amounts to centuries. As one of the prime figures at Ohtori Academy in the present, Akio seduces many high ranking figures (including his fiancee's mother) in order to manipulate them and runs the Rose Duels that essentially pimp his sister Anthy to the victors, abusive or otherwise. Akio gains a cold enjoyment out of mentally ripping apart those near him, including his fiancee who it's also implied he's physically poisoning to get her out of the way. He views Anthy as nothing more than a means to ultimate power and when at one point she's hesitant to continue their weekly tryst one night, he angrily rapes her anyways. Akio seduces Utena and takes her virginity, manipulating her feelings for him to send her into a final confrontation to be sacrificed for his 'revolution,' where he will rise above the world. Akio views people around him as nothing more than pawns or toys, to be mentally or physically used and discarded as his plans or his whims demand.

Moon Phase!

• Count Heinrich von Kinkel from Moon Phase was always a nasty customer, with his habit of sadistically tormenting and trying to murder the majority of the cast. As one of the eldest vampires around, Kinkel believes anything around him is a toy for his amusement or enemy to be destroyed without mercy. It's revealed in flashbacks of his fledgling Elfriede that Kinkel seduced a human woman, drove her insane and returned many years later when the daughter was a teenager. Kinkel turned Elfriede into a vampire before slaughtering the human family who raised her. He then forced her to drink the blood of her best friend, gloating how Elfriede was his slave. When Elfriede was done, Kinkle proceeded to gloat that her pain gave him joy to no end. I Hate You, Vampire Dad doesn't begin to cover it.

Editing Kinkel

edited 10th Mar '13 10:06:56 PM by Lightysnake

Way better. Have no problem with those going up.

Another Hatagai rewrite, taking Paireon's commentary into account.

• The manga version of Hagatai from Bokurano seduces his girlfriend's middle school aged sister, convincing her that he loves her, only to then have her gangraped. He then blackmails her into staying silent, while he moves on to his next target. His motivation, beyond ephebophilia, is the sick thrill that he gets out of hurting her, while knowing that her family continues to trust him. He may not have been an alien, or the operator of a Humongous Mecha, but when it comes to being just plain disgusting, no one else in the manga comes close.

edited 11th Mar '13 1:08:54 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Hatagai and Alastair I think are good to roll

Thank you. Since there have been no objections I'm going to request that Azazel and The Horsemen be burned. Zacariah and Crowley I'll leave for further discussion.

So, my initial thoughts on the Babylon 5 examples from Live-Action TV:

• Refa: Probably a keep. I can see an argument being made that he's a patriot in his own way and thus a Well-Intentioned Extremist of sorts, but there's one scene that pretty clearly rules out that interpretation, which I'll elaborate on if need be.
• Jha'dur: I know a couple of people have seconded her, but I think this is a pretty clear-cut case of Offscreen Villainy. The Dilgar War has never been depicted in any canonical B5 media, and the whole immortality thing ultimately amounts to just talk. Cut.
• Cartagia: Keep, the only really unambiguous one on here.
• Clark: Hard for me to say right away, because as far as I know Clark is the first time where an example is not so much Offscreen Villainy as Offscreen Villain. Plenty of what his regime gets up to is shown, but if Clark himself had as much as 10 minutes of screentime in the series, I'd be shocked. There's a Usenet post out there from the creator saying that he was intended to be depicted as more of a force than a character, and I think that's basically what we got - he makes small appearances in 4 (I think) episodes, and that's it. Not sure which way to vote here without a clear precedent on how to handle a situation like this.
• Bester: Very easy cut. Like I said, we've discussed this before, but for those who weren't here, he has clear Sympathy for the Devil moments, a Morality Pet of sorts, and it's pretty clear that he genuinely believes he's trying to protect telepaths from oppression by 'mundanes'.
• Lyndisty Drusella: Played for rather-discomforting laughs, and more importantly entirely Offscreen Villainy. Easy cut.
• Ulkesh: Arrogant, dog-kicking jackass, but not nearly heinous enough. Clark, Cartagia, and Refa are all responsible for destruction on a planetary scale or attempts to cause them. The government Ulkesh represents does destroy planets towards the end, but it's impossible to know whether he had any real responsibility for that. Cut.

Going to wait until we decide who to keep to assess the actual writeups.

NJ, here's why I'll oppose you on Jha'Dur

while the Dilgar War was offscreen villainy, let's reflect on what she does onscreen. She creates an immortality potion for the express purpose of the secret ingredient being the flesh of sentients of your own race. She knows full well that it will set entire species cannibalizing eachother. Given this is her goal, that she is basically going to see civilization collapse and entire races destroy eachother for the chance to live forever? She's a keeper for me. This isn't just talk, either, it's something she does with clear intent. The fact that the Vorlons had to intervene and vaporize her is testament that she was actually going to pull this off

you're right on Refa. He's a self serving, genocidal little bastard, not a patriot.

As for Clark...while Clark rarely appears, we constantly see people act on his direct orders. Furthermore, Clark...well...he tries to take earth with him when he loses, plus the torture and other crazy stuff he orders. While we don't see him, we see his orders being carried out. That's a keep for me

edited 10th Mar '13 11:12:18 PM by Lightysnake

On the Penguin from Batman: Arkham City I voted cut before and I vote it now. Here's the thing; he's nowhere near Henious enough because he has to compete with the Joker, who is still leagues ahead. There's also the issue that we never see Penguin doing anything really henious; all of his victims in-game are other violent criminals. He kills a single cop and tortures another, Joker accomplishes that in a single minute of Arkham Asylum. Even all of the bodies he leaves behind are limited to other violent criminals, compared to Joker who killed a lot of innocent guards and doctors in the first game and his plot in the second is to kill hundreds of people in hospitals with tainted blood, along with the interqual comic showing him killing another doctor personally.

So in short Wercury, he didn't count before and he doesn't count now, and you've brought up nothing that wasn't brought up before the last time he passed through this topic.

@ Mc Jeff; does the guy from Bully kill anyone in game? No? Instant cut. Is that "hinting" he killed the Hobo's platoon anything more than hinting? No? Instant cut. The work itself does not reach the bare minimum level of heniousness to include in this trope.

So, my vote is still cut.

And I'm assuming both of you used the google search to check the thread to see what the arguments were before.

edited 11th Mar '13 1:00:08 AM by Shaoken

"The work itself does not reach the bare minimum level of heniousness to include in this trope."

I don't believe there is any such rule. In fact, the rules specifically says "by the standard of the story".

Its kind of an unwritten rule I think, which makes sense, as otherwise, any generic villain in a work would qualify.

Otherwise, people can (and would) add someone like an Alpha Bitch who pushed and was mean to the heroine, or Lex Luthor for stealing forty cakes.

edited 11th Mar '13 7:39:09 AM by Hodor

And that's terrible.

The two things that made me consider Magnum (awesome name BTW) were his betraying his country and gassing innocent people, FWIW.

Nothing is quite like logging on and getting a PM from Ambar, warning me that an issue that was settled in November of 2011 is being brought up again. We wrote an FAQ and put instructions on how to search the forums to see if we brought up old examples for a reason. Sigh. At least Ambar was kind enough to warn me about it, so I thank him for that.

First, on Supernatural... I like much of what Occasional Exister argued in @9757. The only candidate that I'm not sure about either way is Zacaraiah - just what does he do onscreen? Honestly, his motives are just as petty as Alistair's and Lillith's - I just need to know what he actually does.

@9762 I definitely agree with cutting all Space Ghost Coast To Coast examples; all heavily Played for Laughs. I'd cut the Time Squad examples for being insufficiently heinous. I believe I've given my thoughts on various iterations of Ben 10 multiple times before; cut all the ones listed. It looks like Robotomy played things for laughs; inclined to cut. I discussed the Green Lantern: the Animated Series examples previously. Examples from Jonny Quest: The Real Adventures... hmm... that played things seriously, and some villains did get pretty bad. I'd cut what's there, but invite folks to argue for rewrites. Johnny Test examples should be cut for being played for laughs. Same with Tiny Toon Adventures - cartoonish supervillainy is not appropriate here.

@9791 Ultron and Mephisto? Well, Ultron has as much moral agency as The Vision... and the latter was able to fall in love and make some horrendous outfit decisions. So he certainly could qualify. My problem is remembering what he's actually done in-canon... I'm not really recalling what makes him stand out compared to, say, Red Skull.

Mephisto is similar, although on a cosmic scale. I'm not sure he's even as heinous as Thanos or, for that matter, Doctor Doom (BECAUSE NO DEVIL COULD STAND BEFORE DOOM!). I don't doubt his moral agency (Marvel has been good about showing how even Made of Evil beings have the ability to turn away from it - they love the Anti Anti Christ trope); I'm just not sure he's actually as bad as some other characters on his operating level.

@9823 Oh, Revolutionary Girl Utena - what we used for Mind Screw before we had Evangelion.

Hmm... while Akio was extremely good at keeping things under the radar for most of the series, the last couple of episodes did have him show his hand enough that he had the on-screen deeds to qualify.

The catch, though, is really figuring out his relation to Dios. We get to hear plenty about how Dios was such a good guy, up until the tragic events that resulted in, well, him and Anthy becoming who they are.

In the end... I think we might have something similar to what we had with Griffith, but with less opaqueness. For one thing, most of his good acts are an Informed Attribute and Offscreen Heroism (which isn't a trope, but you get the idea). Plus, he didn't even have to be tempted into it with a Crimson Behelit - he just went down that path on his own accord, doing all sorts of terrible things to his sister (and later Utena). So he's a complicated example, but I think he fits.

Also, since I'm not familiar with Moon Phase, I'd note that you're not letting us know why the character qualifies either. As things stand, I'd vote "cut for more information."

@9827 Rather than just complain about "why was this cut?", I recommend using the "Google Site Search" toolbar. I found the discussion on the first page for results for "desus complete monster." It starts in @6431.

@9832 Cut and get someone in here if they want to justify them.

@9837 Since you mention it, given that they are explicitly different worlds, splitting different ages (at least for DC characters) makes a ton of sense.

@9838 Hmm... I think we need to make it a bit more explicit that Ultron is out to replace organics with robots subservient to him (i.e. why he keeps killing/trying to kill his children that are pro-humanity). It reads like he's just a Fantastic Racist who likes robots, when Ultron is more just trying to create a race that worships him.

@9847 I'd put Moses Magnum on the same tier as Doctor Doom and Red Skull... which would mean that I'd vote to cut due to be insufficiently heinous.

@9856 And here we are, with the example Ambar warned me about.

First, go to Google Site Search and look up "arkham city complete monster." First and foremost, check to see what's been discussed before. If you do, you'll note that we already discussed him.

For the record, no, The Penguin isn't nearly as heinous as The Joker. Mr. J has way more on-screen kills/attempted kills, and between Arkham Asylum and Arkham City (both are to be taken together, as they're in the same continuity), he has attempted way more atrocity than anyone other than Ra's al Ghul (disqualified for Well-Intentioned Extremist) and arguably Dr. Hugo Strange. The Penguin might have qualified in another universe, but the bar is set way too high in the Arkham games.

@9876 Honestly, I still need a better description of the world itself and just what makes von Kinkel stand out. Though the Akio writeup looks solid.

@9883 Sure, there is such a rule. It's in the FAQ - folks around here are so used to dealing with it that they forgot that it's actually a written one. Quoted, with italics for the relevant section:

edited 11th Mar '13 9:26:34 AM by 32_Footsteps

Footsteps:

Check my Ultron write up last page. To date he's mind controlled his son victor into trying to murder his friends, massacred an entire nation to form a model of his face, horrible galactic conquest and genocide in Abnett and Lanning's cosmic saga...killing his own good 'brother' as well

As for Heinrich Von Kinkel. The world of moon phase is very light. He stands out enormously in a world of friendly or at worst, jerk vampires. Most have no evil deeds to ther name at all. It's a pretty light series so Heinrich stands out as such a black hearted villain

As for Zachariah. All torture he does is onscreen (including creatively giving people flesh eating diseases as blackmail) as well as the blackmail, manipulation and everything else. He doesn't really have a problem with onscreen villainy here. He also attempts to force the Armageddon battles onscreen as well

edited 11th Mar '13 9:38:53 AM by Lightysnake

Good points except for a couple of things:

By tier do you mean in terms of the "cred" the character has? I wonder because I would think of Doctor Doom as considerably less evil than the Red Skull (and perhaps less evil than that Magnum guy). I've never heard of Magnum- he seems very second string as villains go.

My only familiarity with Mephisto is that Peter Parker sold his marriage to him, and that iirc, he made the deal that created Ghost Rider. So, while I admit I'm not all that familiar with the character, my understanding is that he's big on making deals with people that he'll follow to the letter (if not the spirit). So basically, not really that heinous.

edited 11th Mar '13 9:35:47 AM by Hodor

I think he's using tier in terms of the character's powers/ability to threaten large numbers of people.

He has no choice but to follow them and is very find of twisting then. Just ask ghost rider. Mephisto has made a deal to heal someone's cancer for a loved one and then had them killed in an accident the next day while te one who made the deal is damned irrevocably.

He'll live up to the deal because he gets your soul. And he WILL cheat the spirit. The marriage incident? He didn't tell them Mary Jane was pregnant and he got rid of the baby while mocking them about it. He keeps his word because if he doesn't the deal is voided and he won't get your soul to torture for eternity. I'd say that's pretty heinous

edited 11th Mar '13 9:48:00 AM by Lightysnake

Well, he is basically the Devil, and those kind of things are practically included in the definition of "being the Devil".

With those specific examples, the Johnny Blaze one is fairly bad (assuming Mephisto caused the death), but otherwise, while he's definitely really not being fair, that kind of behavior is really typical of any Jackass Genie.

I also see on The Other Wiki that there is a recent storyline in which he fights with heroes against a worse evil.

edited 11th Mar '13 9:50:10 AM by Hodor

Not all devils are created equal. Mephisto is more sadistic than most. Look at the DC devil who has genuine Noble Demon traits for one.

Mephisto never helps out of altruism. He does it so he can get an advantage or eliminate a potential problem. The only question is Mephisto bein heinous by marvel standards and he is. For like 30 years every single altruistic moment if his was revealed to be fake.

"I keep my word to torture you forever and oh by te way I just found a loophole to make your life a figurative hell before I make your afterlife a literal one" is not a mitigating factor. It adds to how heinous he is.

An he isn't a genie nor does anything force him to make wishes so kind of moot as a point

edited 11th Mar '13 9:53:02 AM by Lightysnake

I will also note that I just saw this under Jackass Genie, which is pretty bad (since the poor guy in question didn't actually make a deal with him):

• Mephisto, closest thing to Satan in Marvel Universe, may sometimes dwell into this. Recently he decided to play along popular Urban Legend that sometimes devil may visit a bar and, if bartender will provide him with a good service, he will grant him a wish. When bartender asked for immortality, Mephisto dragged him to Hell, extracted all his blood when grinding him like a fresh meat and used it as an ink to write letters. Words are immortal.

On the other hand, I have to honestly say that I'm not sure he's worse than someone like Norman Osborne or the Red Skull- at least in the sense that while they are very, very evil as humans go, Mephisto is pretty typical as devils go.

Not as far as Marvel devils go. Lucifer and Satannish are nowhere near as nasty as him. Why can't a devil qualify if he's evil for the setting exactly? Meph has the deeds to back him up unlike te "but he's satan" examples

@9888 I can see including Ultron in that case. Von Kinkel also looks acceptable, although I'd want a few more specific instances to give a better grounding as to what he does. Same with Zacaraiah - I think my biggest objection was not having a handle on what he specifically did.

@9889 Ambar has got the idea, but to expand upon this (which I've touched upon before)...

My logic with comic book universes is that there are several operating tiers, based on the comic character's power level and focus. For example, someone who would be a villain that only showed up in Spider-Man and Daredevil comics (threatening midtown Manhattan and Hell's Kitchen, like Kraven the Hunter) has a much different range and threat requirement than someone who could threaten a larger area, like a state (probably around where I'd put Kingpin). Putting an entire country at risk (Iron Monger at his best could probably pull that off) is above that, followed by world-ranging threats (like Doctor Doom or Red Skull), to be followed by universal threats (like Thanos), finally topped by multiversal threats (Dormammu, Shuma Gorath). Mind you, you do occasionally see folks at the higher end taking a dip down below, and you have the occasional case of punching above their usual weight class (Doom is one of the more common offenders because he's so fun to write for). But that's how I sort out comic characters.

Mephisto is somewhere in the universal/multiversal level, in theory - he was serving as Thanos' lickspittle during Infinity Gauntlet, and he's sometimes one of the many devils jostling for position in the various flavors of Hell in Marvel. That said, he frequently reaches low and doesn't even hit the levels of heinous that Doom hits (in fact, the two have clashed multiple times, and I'm not sure if it's a case of Doom reaching up or Mephisto slumming).

As I see it, you can avoid being harmed by Mephisto simply by not making a deal with him (looking at you, Peter), whereas most villains go out of their way to harm innocents, so in that sense, Mephisto seems less bad.

I also feel that in terms of fiction/popular lore, etc, "making deals with people and not following the spirit of them" is practically a tautology where any Satan-figure is concerned.

Its kind of like how a gangster villain generally has to do more than "extort money from people and kill rivals", because that is part of job description.

edited 11th Mar '13 10:02:15 AM by Hodor

To be fair he was only serving the mad Titan to backstab him and steal ultimate power. He's clashed with doom because Mephisto stole his mothers soul as well. Doom was tryin to free her. Honestly I see Meph as more evil than any other demon on his tier. His deal thing is nasty with dozens of cheats an nasty ends for him.

Hodor: Mephisto routinely harms those who never made a deal with him. He has no compunction torturing and killing innocents. He just usually doesn't bother or avoids it because he prefers to corrupt and get a soul out of it. That's not mitigating

And he has this job because its self appoints unlike other satan figures

edited 11th Mar '13 10:04:34 AM by Lightysnake

@9810: I agree with cutting Kane from Tenchi Muyo since his entry relies on Offscreen Villainy, You Monster!… and his ability to turn into a dragon apparently. Also vote cut on Hayate’s parents for being Played for Laughs.

For Legato, I agree with cutting him. A while ago I brought up some arguments against him. In my best effort to surmise my arguments against, while Legato’s tragic backstory and, seemingly, his Undying Loyalty to Knives has been removed from the anime, I still don’t think he meets the heinous standard. He wants to Kill All Humans but he doesn’t have a plan on how to accomplish that, most of his victims onscreen are members of his Quirky Mini Boss Squad who have failed him or Asshole Victims such as slavers, killing Wolfwood isn’t that bad because villains are expected to kill heroes, how much involvement he had in the attack on the flying city is vague since one of his henchmen seems to have come up with the plan himself, and the cannibalism he’s implied to partake in in the manga seems to have be removed, or altered so much that it’s incredibly vague if he does it in the anime.

@9854: Good rewrite for King Hamdo. Sounds like Calypso doesn’t count if he has loved ones and he’s forced to use his powers to screw up the wishes of the winners.

@9856: Yeah Penguin doesn’t meet the heinous standard because he’s not as bad as Joker or even Hugo Strange, who both attempt murder on a massive scale. Penguin might count in a future game, but unless that happens he’ll stay off the list.

@9872: Agree with cutting Cora for having a loved one, getting an Alas, Poor Villain, and regretting not being closer to her daughter after her heart is put back into her body.

@9873: Mr. Hattrick definitely doesn’t count. Onscreen, he’s a Jerkass, at worst, that sells answers to tests and tries to get another teacher fired. Killing the hobo’s platoon is all Offscreen Villainy so it can’t be counted against him.

@9880: I vote to keep Cartagia, Refa, Clark and Jha’Dur. I agree with cutting Bester, Lyndisty, and Ulkesh. While Jha’Dur’s plans for the immortality serum are stopped before they can begin, I believe it’s been established that so long as a villain attempts to do a crime, success is not important. Jha’Dur’s pretty clearly trying to get alien civilizations to destroy each other, and she’s doing it for no other reason than clear sadism.

@Ambar: Good rewrites for Alistair and Hatagai.

@lightysnake: Good entries for Ultron, New 52’s Anton Arcane, Akio, and Count Heinrich von Kinkel.

@9887: For Zachariah, essentially all angels are working to start the apocalypse because God told them they would have to do it a long time ago. While most angels seem to be following God’s will, particularly Michael and Raphael, Zachariah is only doing it for advancement in the angel hierarchy. The apocalypse is destined to start when Michael and Lucifer have their big battle on earth. In order for Michael and Lucifer to have power on earth, though, they must possess human vessels, in this case the two main characters, Sam and Dean, are the ones destined to be those vessels. However, a person can only become a vessel for an angel if the person willingly allows the angel to possess them. It’s Zachariah’s job to convince Dean to be Michael’s vessel.

Zachariah’s crimes amount to: holding Dean captive so that he can’t stop Sam from accidentally freeing Lucifer (which is something all angels have been ordered to do), torturing Sam and Dean when Dean refuses to be Michael’s vessel (he removes Sam’s lungs with a snap of his fingers and gives Dean stage 4 stomach cancer, knowing that if he kills them he can bring them back to life and torture them again until Dean says yes), tries to kidnap the souls of Dean's parents to torture them as leverage, and resurrects the Winchester’s half-brother, Adam, to be the vessel for Michael when Dean refuses one time too many. When Dean looks like he finally will become Michael’s vessel in exchange for Adam’s safety, Zachariah tortures Adam because the kid stood up to Zachariah for using him.

EDIT: Added, thanks.

edited 11th Mar '13 10:21:43 AM by OccasionalExister

Add this: Zachariah tries to grab the souls of the boys' parents out of heaven to torture as leverage. He fails but points for creativity