During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Okay, I've seen Kubo and the Two Strings and I'll discuss it on September 2nd as per the Complete Monster Discussion Dates.
This is the first time I'm doing a movie that's still in theaters, and while I'm pretty sure I have all of the information, does anyone have any advice on how to double-check the details?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Oh, now I see. Yeah, good addition, I agree with it. Thanks! Actually, now I mention it...it should probably be mentioned the Auswahlen is almost assuredly a death sentence whenever used.
edited 20th Aug '16 3:49:14 PM by Lightysnake
Yeah, if anyone does survive, it's doesn't change the fact they've lost whatever power Yhwach wanted to steal, and it's not usual for there to be survivors, even if there are some. Whatever it is Yhwach wants to take from his selected target, he gets. There is no defence against Auswahlen, even if you escape the direct hit, you still get your powers stolen by proxy.
edited 20th Aug '16 3:54:56 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Isn't it also implied that even escaping the initial death isn't much reprieve since the silver blood clot forms in your heart as a result?
Well, I was wondering about that myself. It's hard to know about the silver clot given that Kubo was rushing the end. There were a couple of survivors. Did they have a silver blood clot that just happened to not kill them? What about Uryu? Did his unique immunity mean he received no silver blood clot, or that the blood clot simply cannot kill him?
On the other hand, it would explain the death of Uryu's mother and why it took three months for Auswahlen to kill her. Maybe just leave the blood clot out as too much detail and point out that even if Quincies are not immediately killed by Auswahlen there's still the possibility that the effects of Auswahlen can cause them to die later on?
edited 20th Aug '16 4:05:12 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
The blood clot was hinted at during Everything but the Rain, to note.
Bit of a bummer, but I guess ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Tragoedia then. Really it was the whole 'I'm killing my boredom' thing that led me to take his FE with a grain of salt when I proposed him.
edited 20th Aug '16 4:31:00 PM by Awesomekid42
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Lighty and Wyldchyld: I've re-added Yhwach to the Drafts page, so if you wanna make any changes, feel free. Goodness knows it's been several MONTHS since we knew he'd count; one more week won't make a difference ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
edited 20th Aug '16 4:49:24 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Well, looks like there's yet another 2000 AD candidate on the horizon.
The story Family takes place in Odysseus City, a Vice City metropolis run by The Mafia... who happen to have superpowers. Various members of the 'Family', thanks to the Sicilian bloodline, can do stuff like produce BFGs from Hammerspace, turn to stone or metal, shoot electricity, fight like they're in the Matrix, etc.
Who is Silver Odysseus? What has he done?
The story is a bit complicated in full, so I'll mostly focus on Silver's actions here. He has the power to create explosions.
Silver is the older brother of Gio, the present head of the Odysseus family, who is believed to have died years ago. Turns out when Silver was the heir apparent to their father he had an Ax-Crazy streak that topped that of any other family member. They didn't draw the line until he started regularly offing other made guys, doing fun things like throwing them in meat grinders. They decided to wack him at the docks, but they Never Found the Body.
Silver shows up seemingly alive at a police raid on a Family warehouse. Silver uses his power to blow up everyone at the warehouse, including a group of honest cops (we see a family picture of one of them moments before he dies). To get payback for his previous murder he intends to incite a Mob War between Gio and a rival boss and casino owner named Cane that will engulf the city. He kills Gio's hot-tempered son Chrissie as well as one of Cane's men, a guy named Stone. His power? He can turn into stone. Which he does right before Silver basically kills him, who leaves his petrified but still conscious head behind for a laugh in what is suggested to be an And I Must Scream fate. Additionally, he blows up a bar, killing at least the proprietor and setting the surrounding building on fire. He arranges for a meeting between Gio and Cane, where he reveals that he received messages from the bloodline that they've been wasting their powers on petty crimes, so he has returned to wipe out the whole family. And the cops who have gathered to arrest all of them—whom Silver himself tipped off—while he's at it too. Gio's Action Girl daughter Talia then finally kills him by dropping a helicopter on his head before he can unleash a giant explosion to kill everyone in the vicinity.
Heinous by the standards of the story?
Let's be clear, this story is mostly Black-and-Grey Morality. The mob guys are unapologetic criminals, racist (including Silver, btw), and many of them have blood on their hands. There are several sympathetic characters though, such as Talia, who is just tired of being a part of the Family and doesn't really want anything to do with it, and Kurt, an African-American cop (and Love Interest to Talia) who just wants to be a good police officer in a city run by superpowered mobsters. I do think Silver takes it a step above with his wanton slaughter and unrivaled bodycount. He clearly sets the standard.
Freudian Excuse or redeeming traits?
Not really. He has a revenge-driven motive, but it doesn't make him sympathetic at all. He was already a psychopath before he was killed, and he clearly has no problem blowing up anyone else he feel like without giving it a second thought. Before he kills Chrissie, he also tells him it's "Nothing Personal" before dropping a building on him. He simply doesn't hate the guy in specific, he just wants to hurt Gio by having him bury his son. The closest to an actual redeeming quality is when he expresses shock when his right-hand man Al betrayed him to win favor with Gio. Whether it's just a surprise of the moment thing or if they're anything more than associates is a bit unclear, but in the present he only uses Al as a tool to play Gio and Cane against each other and intends to kill Al too, ripping off his legs during the climax. Given everything else we see of Silver's personality, I'm inclined to say it's not.
Conclusion?
On balance I think he can count.
edited 20th Aug '16 7:08:26 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
As long as we see his actions before he was originally killed, I think I'll ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Silver.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Oh? What's this? A 2000 AD villain with a body count under a million? Naaaaaah, clearly he doesn't count.
.... Silver.
edited 20th Aug '16 6:01:44 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Jesus Christ, 2000 AD is jacked up. Silver.
Lizzid people!
Yes to Silver... aside from Judge Dredd, any recommendations in the 2000 AD universe?
@ ACW: Silver's murder is itself a flashback of Gio, so no. I do think his onscreen actions listed above are sufficient, but take it for what you will.
@ Scraggle: Just to name one in particular, Button Man is pretty badass. There's actually a Live-Action Adaptation in Development Hell for a while now.
edited 20th Aug '16 6:28:54 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
By the way, if anybody's curious about what happened to Aizen, he gets carted back to jail, and seems to be in even more restraints now, including metal bars pinning him to the wall. Nothing as yet disqualifies him, but if a databook comes out that says he went back willingly or something we may need to talk.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wow, a super powered mob? I might have to check that out.
Any way to Silver Odysseus.
Silver Odysseus
The Unknown Unknown
And yes to Silver Odysseus.
My only reluctance on Silver, having read the story, is when Al stabs him in the back, his exact words are "Al? You're my friend..." with a look of shock."
Granted, he's lost that trait later, likely.
To Silver
Late to Hoffman and Laveda, Terrill, Dondo, Dagon, Octomus, Hideyoshi and The One.
to Milroc and Wootox.
A total has-been.
It'd only be disqualifying if we ever saw Silver being a good friend to Al, but it's more likely he's like Griffith or Amon Goeth - a total sociopath who has friends but never truly is a friend to them, and cannot comprehend how their friend can be anything but loyal to them.
Regarding Aizen I hear that in his one scene in the final chapter, he says some stuff about the fallacy of Yhwach's thinking and how in a world without the fear of death, people would not have hope and faith. Was this an observation on his part or a personal belief? 'Cause it could almost be taken as a case of Even Evil Has Standards.
@Lightysnake. I know, that's why I mentioned the Sternritter lampshade instead of the nameless soldiers' lampshading. Regarding your other question, I think your write-up is clear enough. If anyone on this thread who doesn't read Bleach can understand what a numpty the character is, then it's fine.
edited 20th Aug '16 3:44:16 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.