During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
What's Gryle's body count?
Just for fun: Does anybody have any franchises they're surprised don't have C Ms? For me, Flash Gordon comes to mind, and I don't think there's been a Robin Hood CM, though I am preparing an effortpost for theRobin Hood: Prince of Thieves version of the Sheriff of Nottingham that I should post tomorrow or Monday.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Robin Hood (2010) has one.
edited 28th May '16 10:44:09 PM by Camberf
You might be right about that... although I wonder with how well both Old Man Logan and All New Wolverine are selling, if Marvel might actually have the balls to keep him dead for a good five or ten years. They don't care about the movies since they don't own the rights- if anything, it kinda screws Fox- and they're making money off his replacements, so... I guess we'll see. I'm hoping they don't just revert to status quo; ANAD has been mostly really a lot of fun specifically because it isn't that.
edited 28th May '16 10:44:07 PM by Monessi
Demon Duckof Doom, well let's see...his grandma, Adora Belle Dearheart's brother (John Dearheart), and Crispin Horsefry (book only). Given he's said how the most fun part of killing the post masters is "making them dead", I assume that should signify a pattern.
edited 28th May '16 11:17:20 PM by zcooper95
So, I've got a possible candidate from another DC animated film. This time, though, it's a short film - only 25 minutes - part of DC Showcase. The film I talk about is Superman/Shazam!: The Return of Black Adam. Guess who the candidate is?
Who is Black Adam? What does he do?
Black Adam/Teth-Adam has roughly the same backstory as in the comics. Thousands of years ago, the wizard Shazam gifted Adam magical power so he could become the protector of Earth. Bad idea. The power went to Adam's head, forcing Shazam to seal him away in a far corner of space. Adam has none of his better traits from the comics here; here, he's just a power-craving god-wannabe seeking control for its own sake.
Adam arrives 5,000 years after he was cast out in space. The very first thing he does is, while shooting through Earth's atmosphere, redirect his path into a couple making love in a car out on a parking lot. Adam crashes into them, causing an explosion with doubtlessly kills them, and probably anybody else in the vicinity (as the couple wasn't the only car parked there). Adam begins his search for Shazam's next candidate, a boy named Billy Batson living in a run-down apartment in Fawcett City. Batson's a kid. Adam doesn't care.
Adam arrives in Fawcett City, attacking a diner for the purpose of getting to Billy. Superman (disguised as Clark Kent) attempts to stop him, prompting Adam to bat him a mile away. Kent doesn't take this well and engages in combat with Adam as he hunts down Billy. Adam eventually manages to overpower Supes and hunts Billy into a subway station, where he flashes a smirk at seeing Billy apparently run over by a train. Not the case, as Billy ends up accidentally flashing to a corridor containing Shazam, who relates Adam's backstory before giving Billy the power of our famous mis-named (for a while) superhero, Captain Marvel.
Billy confronts Adam and double-teams him with Supes. Evenly matched, Adam decides to tilt the battle to his favor by vaporizing a dam keeping a large supply of water outside Fawcett City, with the intent to flood the city and cause thousands (if not millions; Fawcett City isn't small) of casualties for the sole purpose of distracting the superheroes. Superman is left to deal with the oncoming wave while Adam continues to fight Billy. The battle leads them into the middle of the city, where Adam kicks over a car and takes its driver hostage. Adam relates his psychotic philosophies to Billy, claiming himself as a god. Adam threatens to kill his hostage unless Billy reverts back to his human form. Billy begrudgingly agrees, and Adam throws the woman high into the air to her intending death before trying to kill Billy.
Superman suddenly comes in, saves the woman, freezes the wave, and gives Billy the resolve to stomp Adam into a bloody pulp. He's talked out of murdering Adam, and before Adam can slink away, one of Adam's homeless friends appears. Revealing himself as Tawky Tawny, Tawky approaches Adam and taunts that Shazam, this time, will cast Adam out so far it'll take ten-thousand years to come back. Unable to bear that much time of trying to get back to Earth, Adam utters the magic word, reverting back to his human form and aging to dust in a split second. All is well and the day is saved.
Any mitigating factors?
The only other antagonists in the short film are some bullies. Clearly they surpass Adam in heinousness.
In all honestly though, there's really nothing barring out Adam. He's given enough characterization; his ultimate end goal is vague but Shazam states the world is at risk of Adam's "tyranny" which likely means he wants to conquer the world. Given Adam's philosophies, this isn't a good thing. As far as I know, this isn't related to any other films in, say, the New 52 animated universe, so Adam's really on his own here. He's pretty tame for his resources, but his repeated attempted murder of a child - before he can fight back - as well as his attempted flooding of a massive city, a few Kick the Dog moments, and a general callous disregard for everything not himself I think may push him just enough to count. Keep in mind this is a twenty minute short film, so Adam really doesn't have that much time to be a dog-kicking bastard. He's as heinous as his screentime allows.
He's got nothing resembling a Freudian Excuse or positive traits, so that's all I'll say on that.
Conclusion?
I don't know. One part of me says "generic supervillainy," but another part of me realizes that still entails a lot of collateral damage for an ultimately petty reason on his part. As is, Adam's a spiteful bastard who'll happily kill or destroy anything in his way so he can have power to himself, all told through a measly twenty-four minutes. He's lower down the ladder as far as these kinds of characters go, but trying to destroy a massive city as a distraction alongside some other bits of pointless cruelty is what clinches his potential inclusion for me.
Thoughts?
edited 28th May '16 11:55:10 PM by Scraggle
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I say keep the pre-Axis label. Ugh, comics continuity can be a pain 
. Makes me thankful for some of the Judge Dredd baddies, like Sabbat (who's done with) and Judge Death (who I...don't see becoming good ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
).
Tyk, so help me, I may actually wanna see the new TMNT movie. Bebop, Rocksteady, Krang, Baxter (played by Tyler Perry for some reason), the Technodrome, and a midriff-baring Megan Fox. Could be fun.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
That's all I'm looking for right now, a really fun, light-hearted cartoon movie that isn't bogged down by all the darkness and angst plaguing certain movie genres nowadays. And Casey Jones. And Bebop and Rocksteady.
@DemonDuck: I suppose The Sopranos. With everything involving the mob and frequent assassinations, you'd think there would be one season including a full-on antagonist like Gyp Rosetti.
@G-Editor: Picasso. Mainly because he's played surprisingly well by Matthew Fox, and because he's the main reason why the movie ended up being surprisingly good when it started off as a rather boring, predictable cop movie. And Curtis Freley, because of how bloody and trigger-happy he is, and for being played by Jack Bauer.
edited 29th May '16 1:57:26 AM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Robin Hood also has another one.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
DDD: for me it would have to be the TV series Vikings. Mainly due to it being set in mid evil Europe, having a lot of violence, sexual scenes, and no clear cut good guys.
True Blood also comes to mind due to similar things mention above except instead of being set in mid evil Europe, it is set in modern Louisiana. Oh and theres vampires, fairies, and werewolves. OH and Seasonal Rot, with MORE SEX!
edited 29th May '16 2:32:23 AM by G-Editor
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Incidentally people, you can submit your own quotes; just make sure they're in the proper format.
I support moving Mick to Other Media FWIW (Jerry and Atkin can stay in Lit).
I don't know if it's a genuine redeeming trait: but when Idi Amin has Nicholas tortured with the hooks doesn't he look a bit sad watching him ? Unless I'm wrong he even sheds a tear.
edited 29th May '16 3:44:01 AM by MovieFan2000
Tentative ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
on Adam.
edited 29th May '16 5:06:57 AM by Awesomekid42
Lizzid people!
Wild Child
Black Adam.
Black Adam
Wild Child
Not sure on Mr. Gryle. It seems his worst crimes are on orders from Richard.
Why so serious?
Black Adam
Foreign Troper
On the Sabretooth inversion thing: Really, there isn't a definite explanation on what exactly the inversion does.
It turned Tony into a self-loving asshole who is still capable of doing good when he feels like it. On the other hand it turned Sam Wilson into a fascist and control freak, completely devoid of any positive qualities.
On the villains side, it turned Loki into a good guy, but for Attention Whore reasons, Carnage into a 'meaning well, but having a majorly wrong definition of doing good' kind of guy and much more.
Nothing of this made any sense when we applied the original meaning of the Inversion to it (literall inversion of ALL the persons morales). It was a not-well-thought-out plot device, nothing more and nothing less (Axis was a horrible story).
But whatever it did, it did trigger the change of heart in Sabretooth, so yeah, this isn't a redeeming qualities of him he discovered on his own.
But yeah, I'd be fine with a 'Pre-Axis' mentioning like in Carnage's case.
edited 29th May '16 8:03:26 AM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
"It turned Tony into a self-loving asshole who is still capable of doing good when he feels like it."
That...doesn't sound too terribly different from, at least, the MCU version.
to Black Adam.
Someone created a page for monsters in Teen Wolf, but it's not indexed, locked and has no quote and no image.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wasn't me, as you can tell.
- At the very least I'd've probably had a quote and definitely indexed it under drafts.
- I'd, if not asked, at least SAID I was creating a page.
- The heading's screwy.
edited 29th May '16 8:30:08 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Adam
Nuke it.
edited 29th May '16 8:32:35 AM by DemonDuckofDoom
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, should we nuke it? Actually, yeah, might as well. I mean, there's probably gonna be enough eventually, but for now, just get rid of it. It's on my list of eventual CM pages to create (along with Daredevil; Dresden and Super Robot Wars are on my list of pages to cut).
Also, what did we decide on Aki Honda?
edited 29th May '16 8:37:59 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@Monessi
Yeah, it says something in the FAQ. Falls under moral agency.
In any case, the problem here is that Sabretooth will probably revert to a villain the moment Wolverine comes back from the dead. Because that's how comic books work.