Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I vote to cut Bowser, since no matter what Mario will still Go-Karting with Bowser the next week before having a party with him.

I also vote to cut Bowser.

Regarding Bowser, I don't know if bad writing could disqualify him, but I'm agreeing with Shaoken at 4401, cut him.

There's no way that I could ever consider Bowser a CM, especially after playing Super Mario RPG. In the platforming games, which usually have little to no story, he's more of a straight villain, but even then, he just does basic "bad guy" stuff. The worst thing I remember him doing was bombing the Mushroom Kingdom at the beginning of Super Mario Galaxy.

M. Bison/Vega doesn't come across as a Complete Monster to me. Throughout the Street Fighter games, Bison doesn't really do anything that screams "Unholy despicable bastard". M. Bison founded Shadaloo to Take Over the World. So far, Generic Doomsday Villain, but not Complete Monster. He wields Psycho Power, which he can use because he cut his own soul in half between his good side and his evil side. So, sure he's pure evil in a literal sense. But in the end, the fact that Bison had to remove his good half (Rose) means that Bison had a good half to remove. If he never had a good half and could wield the Psycho Power naturally, then I'd be more inclined to keep him, but the fact that he needed to artifically remove his good half is what convinces me he doesn't count.

In regards to the literary examples that Ambar brought up in #4364:

If the movie is at least relatively following the book I don't think that James' Aunts qualify. Douches surely but not C Ms

The Power Lines is really too short to tell either way. If nobody can explain it should be cut.

John Alpha: Dear God those question marks are annoying. Definitely needs a re-write at the very least and I still think that we need a little bit more details to make sure that there isn't a good moment that is being overlook in favour of the most evil thing evar tract of the example.

Howard De Vore: Not really specific enough

Chane Andraso: if the example can't make up its mind he probably doesn't count

Richard Laymon's: I am wary of the claim that all of an author's villains are complete monsters. Some of the bullet points contain no real information at all. Definitely needs to be either repaired or trashed.

The Ritual Of The Bones : No groups. Cut.

Brian Keene: Very badly organized. If they count as examples then they can be full examples and not bullet points. First of all name the characters second of all list their crimes. Needs a lot of work. If there isn't anyone familiar with the series I say cut.

Have cut James' aunts. Am awaiting further votes for the rest.

Wait, someone thought Bowser was a monster?

Ah, no. Look at the RP Gs, he clearly has standards. He's a Jerk with a Heart of Gold, plain and simple. His minions serve him out of respect, not fear, and he treats them fairly well. Bowser is not and has never been a Complete Monster.

Yeah, if he was, would Mario really go karting with him?

I am joining the chorus that says Bowser in not a Complete Monster. I say that he is more absurd than anything. I think that we should look at the Live-Action TV. We never really pay attention to this page and there are certainly lots of poor examples in there.

And I will say that all the hostility that I received for cutting King Candy was kind of unfair. I know that I can't jump the gun and I don't usually, but as I said and made it clear; I made an exception for King Candy because he was such an obvious non-example that the sooner he could get removed, the better. And if anybody wants to have such a comedic, absurd, kiddie villain, he can always easily be added back in. The only problem that I see is that it might cause an Edit War. Is that a reason why you guys are so against jumping the gun?

EDIT: Oh, I saw that The Master has been added back to Doctor Who page. I thought that he has been disqualified already in this thread. Please correct me if I am wrong.

edited 7th Nov '12 6:56:19 AM by Krystoff

The reason you got so much backlash is because this isn't the first time you've done this. You're a repeat offenderand that's what got you banned.

So seriously, any thoughts on M. Bison?

Alright, briefly surfacing from my Assassins Creed III induced fugue, it looks like the Suikoden examples I brought up have been largely voted for cutting:

• Cut Gorudo: Aqua Regia (4198), 32 Footsteps (4224), willthiswork (4225).
• Cut Childerich: Aqua Regia (4198), 32 Footsteps (4224), Irrose (4230).
• Cut Valfred: 32 Footsteps (4224), willthiswork (4225).

Including my opinion, that’s four for removal on Gorudo and Childerich and three for Valfred, with zero keep votes. Unless there are any objections for cutting them, I’ll cut them midnight tomorrow and add the Neclord rewrite.

@4225: Thanks for the bit about Neclord reviving Viktor’s girlfriend for sadism, I’ll add that in when I switch out the current example for the rewrite. Side note, I haven’t actually played the games, my info’s based on the wiki and based on that it does look like the effects of Neclord’s actions are seen by the player. I saw screenshots of Hidden Rune Village in flames, and of the party being attacked by North Window’s zombified inhabitants. I believe it was agreed that if the effects of the actions are seen they can still be listed.

Also, does anybody else have an opinion on Windy? Two tropers have stated they didn’t think she counted (willthiswork @ 4225, and Aqua Regia @ 4198). Particularly willthiswork gave info here that shows, at the bare minimum, she could use a rewrite, if not a cut.

@4368: I agree with cutting all of those Red Vs Blue examples.

@4364: Literature examples:

• Aunt Spiker and Sponge: Cut. They’re abusive but that’s not enough for the trope.
• Shepherd Howling: Possible keeper but his entry needs a rewrite. If no rewrite, then cut.
• John Alpha: Sounds like a definite count, but needs a rewrite.
• Howard Devore: Rewrite or cut.
• Chane Andraso: Agree with his being cut.
• Montague School Faculty: Cut for being a group.
• The Rising Series Examples:
  • Siquissm: They’re a species and fall under Always Chaotic Evil. Cut.
  • Ob: If he stands out from the rest of the Siquissm, he needs a serious, serious rewrite to explain why he’s worse and why he counts. If not cut.
  • Human Antagonists from 1st book: Zero Context Example. They’re not even given names. Cut.
  • Racist Cannibals: Rewrite or cut.
  • Paula: Very poorly written example. Rewrite or cut.
  • Frankie: I don’t even know if they’re trying to list him as an example or not. Cut, just cut.
  • Pennsylvania National Guard: Group. Cut.
  • Kramer: Rewrite or cut.
  • Miller: If that’s all he does, cut for not being heinous enough.
  • Gonzalez and Mc Farland: Rewrite or cut.
  • Schow: This is the only example I’d keep for sure.
  • General Dunbar: Rewrite or cut.

@4387: I agree with all of that regarding the Dragon Quest examples.

@4405 & : I know nothing about M. Bison or his series, so I’m not sure I can weigh in on whether he counts in particular. However, I will say that he shouldn’t be disqualified just for forcibly removing his good side. In some ways, this is worse than just being born evil because those characters, sociopaths or beings Made of Evil, were born with a natural inclination towards evil. Meanwhile M. Bison actually had the choice between being evil and good (or at least morally complex), and willingly chose evil. There's been some discussion over whether characters who were good or sympathetic in the past can become a Complete Monster. I believe there was a consensus for yes but only if all of the character's good qualities had been removed. That seems to be the case with Bison, who went about it a bit more literally than most examples.

edited 7th Nov '12 10:44:03 AM by OccasionalExister

I just realised that I have in fact, read the first book of The Rising, years ago (I would have been in the eighth grade). With that in mind, Ob probably does qualify, since if memory serves, he's the king of the zombies, and every godawful thing they do (don't ever read that series, it's stupidly miserable) can be traced back to him.

I'm thinking everyone other than he and Schow should likely be cut. In a series that lasts only a few books there just isn't time for anybody else to qualify.

@4388 I'm done addressing things that are not nominations up for debate.

For Vanitas, two strikes against him, both on the "heinous" scale. One he personally isn't nearly as heinous as Xehanort. Two, to be honest, I don't recall him doing anything all that heinous even if Xehanort isn't considered. I vote to cut.

@4390 Seriously, listen to your own argument. You are asserting that Sour Bill, a character that specifically admist and reveals that he along with all of the other characters in Sugar Rush is suffering from Laser-Guided Amnesia, talks about an event that he wasn't there for (the code trawl) and states certainty about an event that was wiped from his memory. There's a reason beyond my own memory as to why I disupte it - because it makes absolutely no sense. It'd be a plot hole the size of an arcade cabinet, and I think the fact that you're the only person apparently finding that plot hole (based on several scans of folks discussing the movie, here and elsewhere) leads me to think that it isn't actually there.

Also, I find it entertaining that I have found a way to fact-check without seeing the movie a second time (which I planned on doing anyway, even before this discussion happened) but nobody else did.

@4394 Oh, I beat Dragon Quest VIII - heck, I even launched the trope page for it. Agreed; the gravedancing about his fate should be removed. Once I have consensus on what to do with the page, I plan on rewriting all the examples before doing a blanket replace.

Oh, that was only for one version of Digimon? My mistake. As for the others... um... mind if I tackle the last few subpages to Monster.Video Games first?

@4397 You brought up a possible new example in a reasonable light and a courteous way. Courtesy should always be met with similar courtesy, even if disagreements are present.

Speaking of, though, I feel that my concerns are still valid. I don't feel that getting a rush from committing extreme acts disqualifies one from being a Well-Intentioned Extremist. I actually expect it - there is a rush to the feeling that you're accomplishing your goals, regardless of what those goals are. Not everyone feels it, of course, but enough do for all sorts of goals that I don't think the argument counts in either direction for determining Complete Monster status.

For the part about believing that Pandora is completely inhabited by bandits... well, to be honest, based on everything I've read, Borderlands 2 is a Crapsack World and that belief is relatively reasonable. His actions do strike me as a bit extreme, but based on what is described so far, I'm not prepared to make a final vote yet.

Instead, I think it really hinges on how much he cares for his daughter. That's the sticking point for me, and I've yet to see anyone show conclusively that he doesn't love her genuinely. That is why I'm leaning to call for cut right now. In short, the arguments made so far are trying to argue the wrong point as to why he belongs.

For the entries on YMMV.Paper Mario... we only considered the examples that were previously on Complete Monster subpages, which would explain why the ones brought up are still there. I think we should just copy the entry we have on Monster.Video Games onto said Paper Mario page and leave it at that. (In other words, cut Bowser.)

@4405 Well, let's see, Dictator is a generic guy trying to Take Over the World in almost all of his appearances, albeit with a splash of Offscreen Villainy in Super Street Fighter II. I don't think we get to him actually doing anything until Street Fighter Alpha 3 (must... resist... Announcer Chatter joke...). Let's see... in Alpha 3, we have him kicking the shit out of people to turn them into a Living Battery, Mind Control on T. Hawk's sister (and one other character, I think)... and that's about it. I discount the whole "Rose is his good half" thing because she was removed, and we do have rare cases of a character that once had good aspects that were completely squelched (Griffin/Femto of Berserk).

That said, I don't think Dictator does anything truly heinous, so he should be cut.

@4412 On Windy... Hrm... well, for one, it's horribly written. Beyond that, I'm under the impression that she's not as heinous as Luca Blight. I'm inclined to cut.

Okay so does anyone else have an opinion on Vanitas?

And I just discovered another potential examples for debate. At best, they need a serious rewrite and they are on Film page.

• Enter The Dragon
  • O'Hara, whose treachery has disgraced us all. It was his actions that led Su Lin, the lead character's sister, to kill herself with a piece of glass when she is cornered by him and his men.
  • Mr. Han. First, he put his kitten into a guillotine with no other reason than to simply show how evil he is ("Very few people can be totally ruthless. It isn't easy; it takes more strength than you might believe.")! He also organized martial arts competitions that involve life and death. And what else? He enjoys trading with opium, and he then puts the poor people affected by it in cages! And that's not even mentioning what he does to Williams.

For O'Hara, has disgraced us all shows clearly oh damn, this guys disturbed me! or I hate him!. So it should be removed. I think that maybe even the entire example might not belong here. He is not as heinous as Han.

As for Mr. Han, the example looks fine but the part about the kitten should be removed. Thats Kick the Dog only and it is not heinous compared to his other actions.

edited 7th Nov '12 12:58:40 PM by Krystoff

Well actually, there is the matter of the town of Overlook in regards to Handsome Jack. See, Overlook is one of the only settlements on Pandora that Jack doesn't want to burn to the ground and butcher its inhabitants (the only others are Lynchwood, which is run by his sadistic girlfriend, and Opportunity, his "capital city"), but that's only because the people of Overlook effectively surrendered to him. Even then though, he treats the people there like complete shit. See, Overlook is right next to a Hyperion facility that is running some experiments, and because of this, everyone in the town has been afflicted with a brain disease that is slowly and painfully killing them. Jack's response to the blight of people who are now supposedly under his "protection"? A single bottle of aspirin. When this naturally does nothing to help the town, he then forces the people to stay in their houses and not go out and find help, threatening to shell the town into ash if anyone steps foot outside. Jack knows a group of his citizens are suffering, but he doesn't care. In fact, he's taken steps to ensure they die.

Also, he forces everyone in the town to participate in an annual "lottery". The "prize"? Being thrown into what the people of Overlook call the Grinder, which is Exactly What It Says on the Tin. Overlook is a prime example of how Jack's claim that he wants to help the people of Pandora is complete bull.

Apology accepted. Now, time for me to have a final say on the Jak and Daxter examples before the subpage gets deleted. I have played and completed the games before, so I should be in good shape.

For Gol and Maia, well they were only present in a few scenes of the first game namely the intro scene, the Volcanic Crater scene, and the final battle. Who knows what they've been doing in the meantime? The other thing, as pointed out, was that they were simply driven insane by being exposed to dark eco and it's unknown if this happened by choice or not. Finally, they were cited as starter villains given that the later villains had more prominence in the plos of the sequels. So, remove.

For Baron Praxis, I agree that he can stay. For one, he had more screentime than the Metal Head Leader aka Metal Kor and the reveal that Damas used to rule Haven City before his banishment caused it to fall into chaos cements how brutal the baron was. He is focused on stopping the Metal Heads solely to keep his city under his suppression instead of care for the citizens. The other characters wished that Haven City got a different ruler and wanted him overthrown. Jak's first words even has him plotting to kill the baron for torturing him for two years. Keep.

For the Metal Head Leader, again, Baron Praxis got more screentime with his true form at least and his seemed to be around just to destroy. He didn't seem to have as much personality. On an unrelated note, his death was embarassing. After losing against Jak, he flies toward the Rift Gate, crashes, and explodes, leaving only his head which gets used as a trophy. Delete.

For Count Veger, he does have good intentions, trying to keep the world safe from dark eco, albeit not above resorting to kill Jak in the process. Although he seemed like a douche when he gloats at Jak after Damas dies without realizing Jak was his son, he got a comedic moment when he is turned into a precursor but the Precursors were actually ottsels much to his dismay and is taken in by Kleiver who keeps him as a sidekick. That and Daxter teasing him with funny names to annoy him. Delete.

That's my say on the matter. Any final objections?

@4414 If it's a Plot Hole, fine, it's a Plot Hole, but don't claim I'm the only one who claims he tried to delete her. I went through the YMMV history on Wreck It Ralph (show all option). Magi Mecha made that same claim on November 2.

edited 7th Nov '12 1:30:15 PM by Peteman

@Vanitas: The worst things I remember him doing was breaking Ven's toy Keyblade and possessing him while wielding the (Pronounced "key") X-Blade. I vote to cut.

@4416 Did you read what I said?

The question isn't establishing whether or not Handsome Jack is heinous enough. It's whether he was truly completely monstrous. You are arguing the wrong point. The matter comes down to whether his care for his daughter was genuine or not. Try to convince me on that point.

@4417 I agree with your assessment of the Jak And Daxter villains.

@4418 Not only is what MagiMecha stating different than what you're stating (Magi Mecha never tries to make the claim that Sour Bill relayed that information... the information that he wasn't there to acquire and the information that would have been zapped by the Laser-Guided Amnesia), but it's still not supported by the movie, when King Candy is shown to be able to completely remove items from the code (as he did with the medal) as well as the ability to completely lock something up via messing with the code (as he did with the memories of the Sugar Rush characters).

Beyond that, though, you still haven't addressed how, even if you give him credit for these crimes, the character in question still falls way short of the "heinous" standard. Maybe it'd be instructive to read over a few weeks' worth of debate here to get an idea of just what folks here are actually expecting out of a nominee for this trope.

@ 4420

He seems to be only able to do that to stuff that's pure code, like memories, or that medal, which was decompiled into a form that no one (except King Candy) had access to.

Furthermore, Sour Bill might have discovered the full extent of what King Candy did at a later date. King Candy's ability to lock away memories doesn't prevent people from forming new ones, otherwise people wouldn't even be able to notice Vanellope since they'd forget her the moment they interacted with her. Alternatively, Bill isn't remembering Vanellope, he's remembering King Candy, and that's why the Laser-Guided Amnesia doesn't affect him, because he saw King Candy doing something, then was able to piece together the information.

And, forcing the evacuation and turning the population of no less than two entire worlds (populations likely similar to cities) into refugees out of spite, engaging in Mind Rape of a third, attempting to murder a little girl (assuming Bill is right), crippling her when that failed, trying to capture her and lock her away in chains at every opportunity whenever she would distract him from his ego trip, getting her ostracized when he's not around, and having an expression named for him that involves screwing over and needlessly endangering countless innocent people for selfish reasons, isn't heinous?

I've taken Grubba, Grodus, Bowser and Huff off YMMV.Paper Mario , and swapped the entries for the Shadow Queen and Dimentio with their current ones, though spoilerified, given that Shadow Queen's existence and Dimentio's backstabbing are plot twists.

I haven't seen this film, but a friend of mine has. When I told him that somebody was trying to add a character from Wreck It Ralph to the Complete Monster list, his reaction was "the King? He's not that bad." With that in mind, I am just not inclined to let him on here. Looking over the list of crimes you've mentioned he a) doesn't measure up to many Disney/other children's film villains, b) doesn't even seem that bad by the standards of his own story. A lot of what you've mentioned sounds like speculation, and that's also unacceptable.

A while ago you said you'd drop it until the film came out on DVD. That sounds like a good idea to me, since you yourself admit your memory is shaky. Ambiguous examples are not necessary.

EDIT: Have cut the Zero Context Example, all groups, and a whole bunch of pointless blather about suitable or unsuitable deaths from the Literature section for The Rising. I would like to axe all the minor examples as well. Nothing that any of the other soldiers do measures upto what Schow does, and nothing that anyone else—including yes, the two rednecks and Paula—measures upto what the soldiers do. Will attempt a write-up for Ob sometime this evening, as he's the only character, human or otherwise, whose evil equals that of Schow, what with his penchant for mocking his victims, luring humans out in the open to be destroyed, and the revelation that he's paving the way for something far, far worse.

EDIT: Have also undone the unauthorised edit to the bit on Pretty Little Liars. Allison is back and Courtney is out until the editor (whom I did PM) comes here to tell us why she thinks they should be swapped.

edited 7th Nov '12 5:35:50 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I guess part of the problem is that I see someone claiming "If he really was so bad, he'd do X", whereas I remember the movie explicitly showing him gleefully attempting to do X, but failing due to circumstance/limitations.

Provoking this reaction.

So yeah, it's not really worth it.

edited 7th Nov '12 6:07:26 PM by Peteman

Handsome Jack is truly monstrous. Literally everything he does is out of self-aggrandizement, and he doesn't let any attachment he has for his family hold him back, not even to spare it from the destruction and suffering he causes for his projects to his ego.

And, yes, it really does all boil down to narcissism. The Well-Intentioned Extremist angle is Jack's own rationalization to do the stuff he wants to do anyway, and the excuse falls through each time he invests time and effort into cruelty that can't possibly further the development of Pandora or the fight against La Résistance, such as going after people's children or their pets.

edited 7th Nov '12 6:35:49 PM by Crowley