During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Now about the votes. I'm going with a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on Garrosh for a lack on consistency with his portrayal, but I'll give Cronus a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
. Also, I think the anime version of Junko got cut for lacking consistent characterization, lacking in heinousness, and possible moral agency issues. She's a vile villain yes, but Shaoken pretty much said why she doesn't qualify best here.
While I'm at it, Garrosh is a from me, Cronus is a .
@30706: Okay, that explains a bit. The twist of Foyle murdering Burton's wife may be not enough to count as a hidden spoiler for that entry, since it happens on the first episode.
Aside from that, I should probably make a case here arguing as to why he may or may not count, before we get any further.
Reasons for:
- Nobody else in the story matches the heinous standard, which in this show he sets the bar for. Everyone else's crimes basically amount to getting criminals off on a technicality, which is their legal job in the first place. There's one count of murder, but it's Foyle himself and he's an Asshole Victim.
- A significant number of his crimes, or at least the creepy results, are onscreen, such as stalking Jamie (Will's son) out of spite. I think there's a scene where Will discovers his wife's dead body but I don't remember the murder itself being shown. I need to rewatch the first episode, since it's pivotal to the plot.
- He doesn't feel remorse for his crimes, and argues that society should stop discriminating against him for being the way he is. In a dose of Insane Troll Logic, he argues that he is essentially being treated badly for being born a lion.
- A serious case of Evil Is Petty and Ungrateful Bastard, Foyle hurts those who have helped him because of his It's All About Me complex.
Reasons against:
- The murder of the wife may or may not be offscreen. Again, I need to rewatch the episode, because I think the result, which I think is sometimes allowed on here, might be shown.
- Only one person is shown at his funeral, but it's implied to be his mother, who is sobbing uncontrollably. With that said, there's too much ambiguity and we have no idea whether he treated her well or not.
- He may or may not have a crush on Maggie, which may be why he gifts her stuff. However, I'm aware that we've allowed other Stalker with a Crush villains before.
I appreciate it's not much to go on until I rewatch the episode. If anyone has feedback for my draft entry, that'd be appreciated.
edited 16th Sep '14 6:01:37 AM by captainmarkle
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Well, we aren't looking at the anime, we're looking at the sequel to the game. And yes, she shows up, and it explains exactly what the calamity mentioned in the first game was. What Genocide Jack said in the first game sounds about right to me: It makes a serial killer look tame in comparison.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
If the result is shown, that's fine. As for his mother, unless it's clear ether way, that's not disqualifying (not to mention, just because she loved him doesn't mean he loved her).
edited 16th Sep '14 6:46:19 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
K, an update for Dick Reed from Blue Bloods
- Dick Reed, the Serial Killer/rapist in "Re-Do", is a thoroughly misogynist Smug Snake who gets his conviction overturned because a lab tech screwed up the protocols. He scares his surviving victim into silence and lets one of his fanboys have her. He also beats his sister and ties her up for saying something she "shouldn't have". He shows zero remorse and no redeemable qualities and after slitting a janitor's throat, he finally attempts to perform his usual MO on Erin Reagan, the ADA who convicted him. This backfires fatally. Toby Leonard Moore's performance is so good that it's also the show's first major dose of Nightmare Fuel.
edited 16th Sep '14 8:54:08 AM by TVRulezAgain
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, so we don't see any rapes, but we see a murder and an attempted rape...yeah, I think that's good enough...
- Dick Reed, the serial killer/rapist from season 1's "Re-Do," is a thoroughly misogynistic Smug Snake who gets his conviction overturned because a lab tech screwed up the protocols. He scares his surviving victim into silence and lets one of his fanboys have her. He also beats his sister and ties her up for saying something she "shouldn't have." He shows zero remorse and no redeemable qualities and after slitting a janitor's throat, he finally attempts to perform his usual MO on Erin Reagan, the ADA who convicted him, before she is saved by Frank.
edited 16th Sep '14 9:53:56 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
A Serial Rapist named Dick? That's bound to be intentional...
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
Doesn't even like this username
Not sure if we should include judgement on actors' performances in CM writeups.
We definitely shouldn't. It's metatexual and irrelevant.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
ACW, how is my Byakuran write-up?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll submit it tomorrow morning.
Also...these questions...
1. Splitting into 2 will be fine for now.
2. Fuhito is the primary antagonist in Before Crisis -Final Fantasy VII-.His hero is mad scientist Professor Hojo, as the both share a similarly deranged view of science.
3. I guess it's closer to the Klinefelds , considering that her sister is an accomplice to The Carver's murders and helps him escape at the end of the season.
edited 16th Sep '14 11:51:15 AM by VeryMelon
The two do seem to share a rather close relationship
Actually, for Dick Reed, we do see one of his rapes. The episode opens with his surviving victim having a flashback to what he did to her
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Even, um, "better." Carver and his sister? Okay, stay cut then. Thanks. I slightly tweaked that entry to pothole "one of the prequels" to that game. I also created the new Lit breakouts. Just need indexing and locking (request sent). The next one to keep an eye on is Video Games And Visual Novels.
edited 16th Sep '14 12:23:44 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Writeup time
- Arrow: The Ultimate Weapon:
- Prince Dorgon, the leader of the Manchu forces leads his men on a brutal campaign through Korea s they slaughter and burn whatever they encounter. After having a village put to the sword, Dorgon has the women abducted and made to travel with his personal company. Each night, Dorgon selects a different women to force himself on, until the heroine is the last one left. Dorgon enjoys a game of making them submit to him 'willingly' and attempts to starve her into submission.
- The nameless dead-eyed Manchu commander shows himself as a sadistic brute who loves to subjugate and murder the Korean people. Unlike his rather noble superior Jyuushinta, the commander delights in killing his victims and gathers a group of civilians heedless of age or gender, promising them they can return to their homes. After having them run, he sends his men on horseback to butcher all of them while he looks on with amusement.
- Class of the Titans Cronus of the Titans, when released from his prison in Tartarus wastes no time in seeking to resume his dominance over the world and all in it. With nothing but hatred for his children and the other Gods, Cronus is utterly brutal and merciless in his tactics which include torturing and trying to kill his own children while throwing the world into chaos and disarray. Cronus eventually gets tired of the human heroes resisting him and makes it a point to attempt to exterminate the entire human race in retribution. At other points, Cronus releases the savage werewolf Lycaon from imprisonment to eat 'whomever he may please' and tries to get his mother Gaea to kill Zeus for him. Sophisticated, suave, seemingly polite and never at loss for a vicious plan, Cronus repeatedly proved how nothing would stand in his goals of domination and destruction.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll work on those tomorrow? and submit them Friday. Lighty, about Cronus...
All those questions can be found answered in my previous posts
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, looks like it's not based on the myth...Cronus just doesn't care for his kids.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Thinking about it, live action Jagi probably counts due to committing the largest share of atrocities, and having no sympathetic qualities.
By comparison, Shin is mostly Orcus on His Throne, and convinced that Might makes right After the End. Shin genuinely loves Julia, and believes that he's reviving human civillization. His orders to Jagi asking for the conquering of more territory, the killing and torturing of innocents Jagi does without instruction. Jagi even convinces Shin to conquer more territory, and is shown to be secretly disloyal to him.
The other baddies are just unaffiliated thugs led by perennial Giant Mook Zeed who robs a man at gunpoint and attempt to rape his wife before Kenshiro stops them. As well as Southern Cross thugs working directly under Jagi. While they have no issue killing adult civilians for Jagi, they refuse when it comes to hurting a little girl While. Jagi isn't shown to have such reservations, and beats them for it.
All we need is a write up for Live action Jagi, maybe I'll do so later.
Currently for Hades its:
- 10 Cut
- 9 Keep
I still stand by my vote for the reasons I've stated about him being Played for Laughs, and having a redeeming quality.
If we're still discussing the Mazinger examples.
Baron Ashura is a cut for me as it has a tragic backstory involving two Star-Crossed Lovers cruelly forced apart, and mummified alive. Was later sewn into one body and revived, Ashura works for Dr Hell out of gratitude for reviving them, and even does a villainous sacrifice, dying in Count Brocken's arms!
Count Brocken likewise doesn't look like an example to me either. While his backstory as a bloodthirsty fascist who was decapitated, then revived as a dullahan-like cyborg is much, much less sympathetic then Ashura, Brocken isn't totally without all redeeming qualities. Brocken willingly works under Dr Hell out of Gratitude for reviving him, and has a friendship with the other villains. Brocken mourns Ashura's death, and calls out Hell for wasting the lives of his men.
Short version, is that while they're depraved maniacs, they are depicted to have human qualities deep down.
Dr. Hell could possibly count, depending if his friendship with his underlings is genuine, and if his Freudian Excuse holds up. There are also multiple versions of Dr. Hell in different continuities.
edited 16th Sep '14 8:58:42 PM by Monsund
I concur entirely on the cuts. The biggest issue with Dr. Hell, is there are like 5 different continuity versions of him. Several of them care for their men.
Quick question on the Bravely Default rewrite: where should I put spoiler tags?
Should I save them for concealing that the game goes into a massive groundhog day loop beyond chapter 6? Or should I also use them for surprises, such as: killing Qada and leaving the area while Kamiizumi is still alive, has the former reveal he faked his own death, only to be cut down by the latter for planning to kill everyone?
Or is this going somewhere that spoiler tags aren't necessary for?
If everyone were normal, the world would be a dull place. Like reality television.
Hades votes
- Yes: Austin DR, Sterok, Some New Guy, toonyloon, Klavice, Very Melon, Scraggle, doineedaname, Beast, Sanfranman91,
- No:Monsund, Occasional Exister, Irene, Anbar Sonof Deshar, holders, Hodor, Morgenthaler, rexpensive, Kyle Jacobs, A New Man, nrjxll
So, still 10-11 like I said earlier.
edited 16th Sep '14 9:02:43 PM by VeryMelon
edited 15th Sep '14 11:55:05 PM by ekimmak
If everyone were normal, the world would be a dull place. Like reality television.