Opening.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
"The Juice is Loose."
My personal preference, is we go with my first suggestion. Rework the description. What does everyone else think? Any other ideas?
Edited by Bullman on Mar 22nd 2021 at 10:30:26 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Discarded and Feeling Blue
I'm game for that. But my experience has shown people don't read descriptions, so stronger measures are also necessary.
An alternative is to redefine it so that the misuse isn't misuse anymore.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Any MLPEG related stuff there?
"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”
"The Juice is Loose."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I mean it has an entry on Animated Films. I don't think it's listed in my original post, but from my research it would be valid.
Okay let's redefine it.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 22nd 2021 at 10:40:54 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
How are we going to redefine it? Will it just be any ship that's popular within the fandom. I feel like that would be chairs.
"The Juice is Loose."
Good point. Some tropers already seem to think it's that. Which lead to missuse in the first place.
How about we just either fix the description? Alternatively, maybe a new title will help?
Edited by Bullman on Mar 22nd 2021 at 11:01:14 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
New title, yes!
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Not sure. I feel like we could define in a way so that Rarijack counts, since it is pretty popular even though Rarity is implied to be straight, if you geddit.
Edited by Delibirda on Mar 22nd 2021 at 5:05:14 PM
"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”
Would redefining it so that it's any ship that's significantly more popular than the canon ships, even if the ships aren't with the same characters, work?
If not, let's just rename it and refine the description.
Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Mar 22nd 2021 at 12:03:59 PM
Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
"The Juice is Loose."
I don't know. Personally. My thing is that we already have several tropes for popular ships, like One True Pairing, that cover the most popular non canon ship even if it's different characters from the canon one. However, I am not opposed to it.
I feel like a title change would still be needed then.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 22nd 2021 at 11:19:36 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Current misuse involves a lot of listings of any non-canon ships, even if they’re not particularly popular, ones that are less popular than the canon one, or ones that aren’t officially canon but are heavily implied, making it questionable if they’re fan-preferred. I will say that the current trope description doesn’t specify needing a canon-preferred couple, just as long as it isn’t an Official Couple and is the most popular ship for one of the characters, but we could add that unless we think it’s too restricting.
Definitely needs a rename, I think
"Let’s see who’s stronger: someone that has something to protect, or someone that has nothing to lose."
"The Juice is Loose."
I mean I would be fine with adding it to make it more clear. Might stop a lot of missuse.
So if we do rename it. Any good suggestions?
Edited by Bullman on Mar 22nd 2021 at 12:41:45 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Discarded and Feeling Blue
Settle down a little Bull, these discussions take a lot of time. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
"The Juice is Loose."
Sorry my bad. This is my first one of these.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Thinking about it, I'd be fine with defining this trope as any ship that's more popular than the canon/creator-preferred ship. However, we should require tropers to provide evidence that the ship is more popular.
"The Juice is Loose."
Yeah. I agree thinking it over. We definitely should require some form of evidence. Like more fan art, fanfiction, fanvids, or more discussion on a particular website where fans gather to discuss the work/ships. However, I feel like we should add a thing that Implied Love Interests or character's given legit Ship Tease shouldn't count. Which you think would be obvious, but entries for those are littered through the pages.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 22nd 2021 at 4:31:02 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Should it also be limited to finished works, or at least those that have wrapped up their romance arcs, to ensure canonicity? Eg. the second example in the wick check admits Naruto and Hinata were teased for 15 years before getting together near the end.
I've also seen it used in an episodic troping or temporary way - eg. "In season 1, Alice/Bob was the FPC vs. Alice and her then-boyfriend Charlie" and then Alice and Bob get together in season 2. Do examples like that count?
"The Juice is Loose."
I definitely say it depends. At least until the romance arc is over. Are they given Ship Tease. If not then yes. However if yes then no. For instance there was at one point an entry for Austin & Ally for well Austin/Ally. Which was basically they didn't get together at the beginning. However, from the very beginning of the show it was clearly teased, and eventually did happen with the two eventually getting married and having kids.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 22nd 2021 at 5:07:52 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Discarded and Feeling Blue
We have a temporary example on YMMV.House Of Anubis, about a relationship the fans were rooting for in between Seasons 1 and 2, but it vanished come Season 2 because one of the characters got a wildly popular canon love interest.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
"The Juice is Loose."
That was agreed on upon the thread at the time as a short of historical example. Similar to Harry/Hermione, which is no where near as popular now as it was when the books/movies first aired. Rather we still do that after this I will leave to others to give their opinion on.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 22nd 2021 at 4:47:42 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Yeah, I agree with historical examples being allowed as long as it's clear they weren't being set up as endgame from the beginning.
I also think a pairing can have some Ship Tease as long as it's clear it's more popular than another pairing that's being teased more. Or it could even be previously canon as long as endgame ends up being something else. Like how in How I Met Your Mother, Robin/Barney and the Mother/Ted are the most popular ships and were canon, but in the end, the show breaks up Robin/Barney and the Mother dies so it can set up Robin/Ted.
"Let’s see who’s stronger: someone that has something to protect, or someone that has nothing to lose."
"The Juice is Loose."
Another example of this is. That '70s Show. Where as mentioned in the original post. Jackie/Hyde where dating for a bit, but when the new showrunners took over they hated them together and broke them up for Jackie/Fez getting together. But Jackie/Hyde remains the most popular ship for Jackie. So it counts in my opinion.
Or the original Ghostbusters, Egon/Janine where given legit Ship Tease in the original movie, but Harold Ramis did not like the angle. Leading to Janine getting with Louis in the sequel. However, Egon/Janine remains more popular.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 22nd 2021 at 6:26:44 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
A lot of misuse also list pairings that are creator-preferred because apparently some tropers think that any pairings that are popular among fans will do. The name doesn't really clarify that it is preferred "over Canon" I think.
"The Juice is Loose."
Yeah I noticed that as well. Look at most of the Comic Books page. Which mostly lists stuff like Lois Lane/Clark Kent, Dick Grayson/Barbara Gordon, Dick Greyson/Starfire, Bruce Wayne/Selina Kyle, Peter Parker/Mary Jane Watson (this last two is a bit more forgivable in my opinion), Wally West/Linda Park, and Rogue/Gambit. These are popular, but all are canon, with some even married or amoung longest Will They or Won't They? pairings in the whole medium.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 22nd 2021 at 7:55:13 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Crown Description:
Fan Preferred Couple is too narrow and faces a misuse problem where tropers list it for official/canon couples, despite the trope being about noncanon couples that the fans like. What should be done to fix it?
So on the Fan-Preferred Couple thread we found that the description of the trope was vague, and lead to people either listing canon ships, ones that weren't as popular, or ones that had no canon computation. Some suggested that we start one of these in order to work out how to fix it. As well as it being misused a lot of the time. Plus some found the title misleading. War Jay 77, Oshawott 337, Tropers/Crossover-Enthusiast, and myself did a Wick Check.
Wick Check
- YMMV.Twilight:
- Fan-Disliked Explanation: A few of Meyer's attempts to explain things in the series weren't appreciated by some readers, mostly because they tended to open up a whole new can of worms in regards to the logistics of the world. Team Jacob especially did not like the explanation that he apparently only loved Bella because he was subconsciously waiting for Renesmee, as they felt it cheapened the bond between their OTP, essentially made the love triangle that had dominated much of the series pointless, and/or because it had weird implications that Jacob had somehow imprinted on Bella's ovum. I (Crossover-Enthusiast) don't know much about Twilight and don't know where to start searching, but considering the context it seems correct.
- Jacob/Bella, though the official couple has its own vast devoted fanbase. Team Jacob supporters cite that Jacob usually comes off as far more warm and compassionate towards Bella (at least until Eclipse) compared to Edward (who's a stalker and a bit of a jerk to her at times), and that their bond is built upon a genuine friendship rather than infatuation. Bella and Jacob actually have hobbies and interests in common and she is generally more relaxed and carefree around him (probably because she doesn't have to worry about him wanting to eat her all the time). Team Jacob also point out that when Edward broke Bella's heart in New Moon, it was Jacob who emotionally supported her and helped her out of her depression, and that while Edward has a habit of lying to/keeping secrets from Bella, Jacob is usually very honest with her (sometimes brutally so). In the films, some fans and reviewers feel that Bella and Jacob appear to have more onscreen chemistry and believable development than Bella and Edward (the wedding dance scene in Breaking Dawn Part 1 being an oft-cited example). It doesn't help that Bella herself eventually admits her feelings for Jacob are stronger than she initially thought and that before Edward came back, she'd at least entertained the thought of having a relationship with him. Stephenie Meyer has stated that Edward/Bella were always going to be the Official Couple even after she added the Love Triangle, but Team Jacob still generally feel they was robbed, or that it's a severe case of Relationship Writing Fumble. Again, seems correct.
- YMMV.The King Of Fighters:
- Fan-Preferred Couple: Iori and Kyo are the most popular ship in the fandom, despite the fact that Kyo has a canonical girlfriend named Yuki who features in the plot. It's gotten to the point that the games themselves take cracks at it sometimes. Depends on what "the games themselves take cracks at it" refers to, but otherwise I think it's correct.
- ShipSinking.Comic Books:
- Normie's marriage to the Romantic False Lead killed the then-Fan-Preferred Couple Normie Osborn and May, after years of Ship Tease. I (Crossover-Enthusiast) think it fits.
- DieForOurShip.Western Animation:
- Over the Garden Wall has a truly bizarre example with Fan-Preferred Couple Wirt/Beatrice vs. Maybe Ever After couple Wirt/Sara. Because the entire show takes place in a Dying Dream and/or afterlife, with Wirt eventually returning to his old life and his schoolboy crush Sara, the fashion is to kill off not Sara, but Wirt, ensuring him a permanent place in the Unknown and leaving him free to court Beatrice (or Lorna). A common AU starting point has Wirt either make a Heroic Sacrifice to save Greg's life or consent to take the Woodsman's place as the Lantern Bearer. Sounds legit.
- CriticalDissonance.Live Action TV:
- The fifth-season How I Met Your Mother episode “The Rough Patch” exemplifies this on a single-episode scale. It was the culmination of the writers’ attempts to break up Robin and Barney throughout the entire season after the entire fourth season had been spent getting them together. Critics lauded the episode for the exaggeration by future Ted’s narration in the form of Barney’s fat suit and Robin’s haggard appearance. This undid over a season’s worth of Character Development for Barney and broke up what many fans considered the Fan-Preferred Couple because the writers wanted to prove that the relationship wouldn’t work, despite the chemistry Cobie Smulders and Neil Patrick Harris displayed.This is correct, Barney/Robin is indeed more ppular, and is the most popular from the show.
- HoYay.Victorious:
- Definitely the Fan-Preferred Couple. Jori has been one of the top trends on Twitter.Correct use. Jori is indeed the most popular ship.
- TearJerker.That70s Show
- Just about every break-up on the show from Eric and Donna's (save for the last one done offscreen) to Fan-Preferred Couple Jackie and Hyde's. Jackie and Kelso's break-ups were also rather sad as well.Correct use. Jackie and Hyde are more popular then Jackie's endame ship.
- YMMV.Bend It Like Beckham:
- Fan-Preferred Couple: Jess and Jules are such a popular ship that it led to rumors about this being the original plan in the script (As Told by Ginger enjoyed a similar bit of Fanon thanks to the popularity of the Courtney/Ginger ship). Even Keira Knightley gave her approval, saying she'd do a sequel where Jules and Jess become a couple.Correct use. From my research they have a creator preferred one.
YMMV.Charlie And The Chocolate Factory:Total ratio: 47% misuse, 40% currect use, 5% zero context, 25% unsure of. Plus a lot of the first two and last one were listed together.
I have a couple of suggestions on how to fix this trope, or at least make it more clear:
- Rework the description so the rules make it more clear that it needs a creator preferred pairing to overshadow, and must be the most popular for a character with one.
- Make a concrete system to tell when a pairing is more popular than the others.
- Change the title to something less misleading. Then cut the misuse.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread