During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
....weak ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Relius
To Lightysnake...Rock really orchestrated a armed conflict? (That's what someone else who watched the series say me)
If that's the case then...why that's not in his entry. That's definitely more "Bastard" than manipulating single individuals.
edited 24th Jun '18 6:00:47 AM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Just lean yea on Relius, assuming he doesn’t delve into cowardice trying to save his own life, it doesn’t sound like he crosses lines that would kill the magnificence for me.
Kaz, He included his schemes in Roberta’s attack on Roanpur. We can see what others say but I think this one is fine the way it is man.
Goku Black
I'll give a slight to Relius.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Tentative yea to Relius...Probably he's Shou Tucker but even more likable than him 
Kaz, if anyone else has an issue with it, I'm fin to discuss changing, but I think Rock is fine how he is. I'll yes, Relius.
New EP...
What's the work?
''Castlevania is a long, long running series of video games with a pretty simple plotline: the warriors of the Belmont Clan fighting Dracula who returns every century. Now, the series received a reboot/alternate continuity I'm here to discuss: Lords of Shadow.
Now, Lords of Shadow is set in medieval times. The hero is Gabriel Belmont, a member of the Brotherhood of Light, whose wife was murdered by the forces of darkness. The world is besieged by the three Lords of Shadow, terrifying monsters who were once the founders of the Brotherhood of Light....Gabriel sets off on a quest with his friend, the knight Zobek, and learns he is but a player in a dark game that is run by Satan himself...Gabriel defeats Satan, being forgiven by his wife's spirit when it turns out Gabriel was controlled into her murder.....unfortunately, having to fight evil more...Gabriel is forces to turn himself into a vampire and succumbs to darkness, becoming known by a new name: Dracula.
Having grown...dissatisfied with the world, Dracula sought to remake it...being opposed by the Brotherhood.
So, who is Dracula?
As said before, Dracula was once the heroic Gabriel Belmont...upon becoming dissatisfied with the Brotherhood of Light who sought to slay him, feeling responsible. He...continuously outwitted and killed the knights they sent, until they sent a young knight known as Trevor. Dracula bttled Trevor and mortally wounded him, whereupon Trevor, seeing Dracula's tragic past revealed he was Dracula's own son, born in secret to his wife Marie while Dracula was on campaign and hidden by the Brotherhood. A furious Drcula, blaming the Brotherhood, enacted holy vengeance and drove them underground, with Trevor's son Simon surviving, later returning to defeat Dracula for the first time...however, Dracula opted to play the villain with his grandson, being a sort of Stealth Mentor, alongside the now vampiric Trevor, known as Alucard now. Dracula faked his demise....and became the ultimate lord of darkness for the next 500 years, almost dominating the world itself. Lords of Shadows 2 opens with knights laying siege to Dracula's castle, resulting in their utter destruction....and then Dracula awakens in modern times later, guided back to life by the immortal Zobek, who was in truth the evil third Lord of Shadow, who tells Dracula that Satan is plotting a return (And Zobek is FAR from his good books)...they work together to take down Satan's children/acolytes and then Zobek will kill Dracula, ending his long, painful life....Dracula agrees.
Now, Dracula hunts down the acolytes...and it later becomes revealed? The entire game is a plot...by Dracula and Alucard. 400 years prior, Dracula and Alucard got together and Dracula realized Zobek and Satan were hiding in fear of him...and he was only spinning his wheels with this lord of all Darkness thing...so he and Alucard make a plan: Alucard stabs him with the Vampire Killer cross, knocking him out for centuries. Eventually, Satan makes a plot to return and Zobek, terrified, will revive Dracula to deal with it with an offer to kill him...Alucard and Dracula handle things behind the scenes and Dracula relies on how he'll react....and at the end, when they've dealt with their enemies? Alucard will kill his father and set him free for good nd all.
Needless to say? Things go exactly as planned. Dracula handles things with Alucard, destroying most of the Acolytes...after regaining his memory, Zobek discovers the deception, and Dracula faces and kills his old enemy for good....only for the final Acolyte to summon Satn himself. In the ensuing fight, Satan possesses Alucard, forcing Dracula to defeat his own son. At the end, Dracula wins and Satan relies on Dracula not being able to kill his son...Dracula proceeds to rely on Satan's natural cowardice and inability to understand good, stabbing at his heart....terrified, Satan flees Alucard, just as Dracula knew. Dracula seizes him, and stabs Satan through the heart, destroying him for good. At the end...Dracula opts to live on with Alucard, repairing their relationship and facing a new future.
Is he charming? Charismatic? A good planner?
Oh, hell to the yes on all of them. As Dracula, he is full of dark charisma and charm, with amazing lines, a whole Tragic Villain thing at his worst and he belives totally in what he's doing. Also, he relies on an exemplary Memory Gambit with Alucard that works like a charm, utterly dominates forces of light and darkness and tricks and destroys Satan flawlessly at the end. Yeah, nobody touches Dracula except Alucard.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Gabriel starts as a heroic knight who gets darker...as Dracula, he's flat out evil. He wrecks the Brotherhood, massacres heroic warriors, kills innocent people to feed, which he justifies s 'sending their souls to a better place', but freely admits he doesn't bother to get to know his victims. When he realizes he's killed his son, he flips out, blames the Brotherhood and launches an attack that kills a lot of innocent people, and almost kills his grandson without his knowledge. So, he is in effect, the evil lord of darkness.
However, LOS 2 is basically kind of his redemption song. even at his worst, he's got redeeming qualities. Dracula truly loves his dead wife Marie, and when he finds out Trevor is his son, his reaction is to scream out in grief, rush to Trevor's side, frantically feed Trevor's corpse his blood, sobbing "Live!" before breaking down crying "my son"...while he tries to kill Simon years later, it's strongly implied that he's just playing the villain for that to strengthen the Belmonts.
He also truly believes he sends his victims to a better place, and in modern day, Zobek actually heals him up by feeding him an innocent family; father, mother, and a young girl. When he realizes what he did in a blood-frenzy, he does not look happy at it....and even he thinks Satan is too evil, while his grudge against Zobek is more of a personal one.
Conclusion?
I think Dracula keeps with flying colors. Alucard would be a contender, but I think he's ultimately too heroic as he doesn't do anything evil after becoming a vampire and feeds on other monsters to avoid harming humans. He's charismatic, bold, and has lots of decent qualities to him.
Classic, yes there.
Goku Black
dracula
His VA Robert Carlyle also gives him a beautiful amount of charisma and awesomeness.
edited 24th Jun '18 2:21:18 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
One other EP tonight...
What's the work?
''Final Fantasy XV is the revival of the famous Final Fantasy games by Square Enix. We are taken to the kingdom of Lucis, governed by the mysterious Crystal that selects the 'Chosen King' every so often...now, Lucis is undergoing an invasion from the expansionist empire of Nifleheim, prompting its prince Noctis to flee with his closest friends. The capital of Lucis falls and Noctis's father is killed, prompting a journey as they look for Noct's betrothed, Lady Lunafreya and a way to deal with the current crisis, including the Starscourge, a plague that turns others into Daemons...and they are soon met by a mysterious fellow named Ardyn Izunia, secretly the high chancellor of Nifleheim, who claims he is just...a man of no consequence.
Who is Ardyn Izunua?
Born Ardyn Lucis Caelum, the brother of the first king of Lucis. Ardyn was once a healer who roamed the land, saving people from the daemons by taking them into himself. However, such things corrupted his very nature and Ardyn ended up ostracized and demonized, even by his own brother, who was chosen as the king. The Astrals, the deities who govern the world, rejected him and Ardyn left Lucis...over time, Ardyn's love for the land he had saved turned into pure hatred. He began to hunger for revenge, not just against Lucis, but against the Astrals...the Crystal itself...he devised a plan to bring about the True King and destroy him, ending the Crystal to bring himself peace.
....oh, and along the way he picked up a really awesome hat and car but neither here nor there. Fast forward several thousand years. Ardyn is the true architect of Emperor Aldercapt of Nifleheim's war, manipulating Noctis toward regaining the Astrals and helping him on his journey. Ardyn has Noctis head to meet Lunafreya, who is functioning as a healer in the city of Altissia where they plan to summon the Astral Leviathan...Noctis is left to fight Leviathan...after tricking Lunafreya into summoning Leviathan? Ardyn stabs Lunafreya fatally, informing her before he departs "oh, and do remind him about the Crystal."
With Luna dead, Ardyn approaches Noctis...and uses a spell to make Noctis see his friend Prompto as Ardyn, making Noct attack Prompto so Ardyn can kidnap him and split up the fellowship. With Lunafreya dead, Ardyn lets the Starscourge run rampant and brings the Empire of Nifleheim to its ruin by daemonization, eliminating those who can stop it and leaving it to rot. He manipulates Noctis to the captured crystal, which absorbs Noct, Ardyn telling Noctis everything, and to 'claim the Crystal's power. Arise as its champion." Ardyn then withdraws, leaving Noctis in the Crystal for ten years as he lets the Starscourge and eternal night rage over the land.
Noct returns later as the Chosen King, returning to confront Ardyn, in a final one on one duel in a battle between kings. Ardyn is defeated by Noctis and calmly informs him he shall await him in the next world, fading away. Noctis sacrifices his life to confront Ardyn in the afterlife, with Lunafreya's soul providing its aid. The Kings of Lucis's spirits appear and with Noctis, strike out at Ardyn, destroying his immortal soul at last, as Noctis fades peacefully into death.
Charming? Charismatic? A manipulator?
Oh, freak the hell YES. Ardyn is given an incredible charm and charisma by Darin DePaul...he's pleasant, charming, with exceptional magnetism who steals almost every scene he's in. He's always pleasant, even playfully informing Noctis that he's pretty sure he's earned the right to call him 'Noct,' and when he kills Lunafreya, he still speaks pleasantly to her when she expresses a wish for him to find peace, stating it's very sweet but "please, Lady Lunafreya? You first."
Let me also stress this...the entire game is practically Ardyn's master plan. He plays everyone. Individuals, kingdoms, empires and gods. All are dancing to his tune the whole way. He's never outsmarted, nobody ever comes close to it. He only loses in the end because of the destined duel he wanted and the only thing he (perhaps) didn't see coming is Noctis bringing the Kings of Lucis to destroy him.
So, yeah, great pass here.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Ardyn is...pretty damned evil. He manipulates, murders, brings about a war, lets Nifleheim rot and is fully content to let the starscourge consume the world as long as he gets what he wants at the end. Now, I should note I successfully put him on the CM list, but Ardyn is undeniably complex as hell and the game emphasizes what an incredible plotter he is over sadism.
It's true he was unmistakably screwed thousands of years ago, and while his nature was corrupted, Ardyn is fully aware of it and doesn't care or let it define him. He is fully in control and in command of himself, and while a lot of what he does can be pretty monstrous, it is always with utter purpose behind it, even if that purpose is a very bad thing. He also does have some moments of real depth, when he reflects on his past and how it made a 'true monster' of him, his rage as the Astrals....and there is of course the theory as Ardyn lends himself to a lot of Alternative Character Interpretation that his death and the end to his immortal life is what he wanted all along.
Conclusion?
Frankly, I really, really think he counts. The scope of Ardyn's schemes and plotting,his unbelievable charisma and his genuinely tragic backstory lend themselves well to him as an MB, along with his absence of the more disgusting sadism and omnicidal mania of other FF villains like Kefka...Ardyn acts with more of a purpose, and ends up as an unbelievably talented manipulator who is hands down one of the most complex complete monsters I've ever proposed, who manages to stay charming and even oddly likable no matter how evil he gets. Notably when he confronts Noctis for the last time, he welcomes him with a charming and magnificent bow and even a tip of that amazing hat.
I think he's a crossover keep.
edited 24th Jun '18 7:38:15 PM by Lightysnake
I'm a bit broken on Dracula. I love LOS 2 to death, but Dracula does spend a good bit of it a broken tragic man. However, I will give him a .
I'll deal with Dusan tomorrow. I'm making sure he doesn't fall into being a Dirty Coward and that he doesn't break down.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Ardyn Lucis Caelum
Geez. I probably couldn't create a CM/MB crossover if I wanted. I'm envious.
Dracula
edited 24th Jun '18 7:42:11 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
I'm always a bit more lenient on spending time broken if they bounce back from it, which Dracula absolutely does.
Yes to Ardyn. And clear yes to Dracula as well, easily one of my favorites to ever apply to the trope. You have to give him points for sheer persistence and the lack of any especially crippling Villainous Breakdown moments, too. As well as his sheer camaraderie with Death (seriously, I can't remember a wide berth of voluntarily executed Devour the Dragon moments in recent media).
edited 24th Jun '18 7:43:08 PM by Scraggle
Actually, slight note...this is only the Lords of Shadow continuity Dracula. I'd need to do another EP for the main continuity one.
The original is a real tough case for me. His gambit to become a vampire is absolute brilliance, but after he does so, he spends a lot of time returning to life and...losing, albeit with some clever gambits along the way. He does have a lot of schemes to return to life.
edited 24th Jun '18 7:44:26 PM by Lightysnake
Oh, I skimmed down there... but, uh, honestly, it doesn't really matter much considering my support for Gabriel as an MB is just as strong there. Personally, I'd heavily, heavily support both versions of Drac.
The constant losses, I admit, I think are offset by his sheer tenacity, charisma, and sense of sense of wealth and taste he retains all throughout. It's kind of a "not for lack of trying" deal, I think.
edited 24th Jun '18 7:49:37 PM by Scraggle
Yes to Ardyn
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Go for it, Sir Dude
edited 24th Jun '18 8:05:13 PM by 43110
Y'know what? I agree with original Drac. Furthermore, he leaves some exceptional contingencies, plans to return to life and his plan to become a vampire to begin with was goddamn brilliant. Anyone mind if we go over the original continuity Drac?
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
yes to Ardyn and Dracula... I also in opinion that Ardyn is one of the most fascinating and complex CM/MB for me
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Hey Scraggle how's it going? It's been a while since I saw you here. I heard from others that you plan on EPing Varrick, is that true?
Oh and to Dracula and Ardyn!
Now then with enough here's my write-up for CM/MB Relius Clover!
- BlazBlue: Relius Clover, "The Puppeteer", is the brilliant alchemist and colonel of NOL. Originally known as The One, leader of the Ten Sages of Ishana, Relius dedicated his intellect to bring the world into a prosperous future. Encountered by Yuuki Terumi, he helped him create The Black Beast. Getting sucked in by The Black Beast and sent 80 years into future, Relius saw the "True Form" of the human soul and thought it to be simple. Disappointed, Relius believed the only way he could achieve his perfect world was to get rid of humans and replace them with his creations, with himself as "The Architect". He would found the NOL Military Academy for this purpose, observing the students' hidden potentials before turning them into his perfect dolls; among them include his own wife and daughter Ignis and Ada. Relius, would also manipulate Sector Seven, fellow scientist Kokonoe Mercury, and Litchi Faye-Ling to create the Nox Nyctores Nirvana and the energy core powering all his dolls. Getting betrayed by Hades Izanami, Relius changes tactics and convince his son Carl to go to the Boundary with him on the pretense he can cure his sister Ada. Upon arriving to the Boundary, Relius abandons Carl before watching with content Hades and Terumi's downfall, knowing that he himself has escaped karmic retribution and can always resume with his plan.
edited 25th Jun '18 3:13:12 AM by G-Editor
Goku Black
Ardyn
And go for it on OG Castelvania Dracula, Lighy. Sure he loses but he always bounces back.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Alrighty:
- The Witcher 2 Assassin of Kings: Letho of Gulet is a talented Witcher who joins with Nilfgaard to create a homeland for his fellow Witchers. Letho becomes the Kingslayer, a feared assassin who uses his wiles to position himself close to the rulers of the northern kingdoms and assassinates them, provoking chaotic reactions in order to weaken the north so Nilfgaard will be able to invade. Against Geralt, Letho shows himself to be a crafty, skilled fighter who even considers the White Wolf a friend worthy of the greatest respect. a brutish looking man, Letho also uses the appearance of Dumb Muscle to his advantage so none know how truly intelligent and dangerous he is until it's too late.
- Gormenghast: Steerpike was once a kitchen boy who rose to become of the most powerful figures in Gormenghast. Scheming to overthrow the Groan family, Steerpike sets fire to Earl Sepulchrave Groan's beloved library, resulting in the Earl's insanity and eventual suicide, setting himself up as a hero who rescued everyone else within. Steerpike burns the master of ritual, Barquentine, to death to steal his position and steadily either discredits or murders those who stand in his path while also seducing Fuchsia Groan, Sepulchrave's daughter. Steerpike then kills Sepulchrave's twin sisters by sealing them in a room and leaving them to starve, murdering the former servant Flay when he and Young Earl Titus catch Steerpike gloating to the corpses years later. Escaping into the castle, Steerpike decides to destroy everyone he can if he cannot rule the castle, being defeated only when a flood ruins his hiding place, dying with a last snarl of hatred at Titus Groan.
- Heat Neil McCauley is a master thief who organizes masterful heists to keep his lifestyle going. Pulling off a daring heist against an armored car to steal bearer bonds and then sell them back to their original owner, things go wrong when the psychotic Waingro executes a guard and escapes Neil's attempt to kill him in retribution. Neil then plans a masterful bank heist, executing it almost flawlessly if not for Waingro and his arch-nemesis Steve van Zant tipping off the cops. After losing his friends and comrades, Neil even forsakes a chance to get to safety in order to avenge them by killing van Zant and Waingro before facing off with his nemesis, LAPD cop Vincent Hanna with whom he shares an incredible respect despite being on the opposite ends of the law.
- Castlevania: Lords of Shadow: Dracula was once the heroic Gabriel Belmont, a champion of the light who succumbed to the darkness. Deciding to remake the world, Dracula completely crushes the Brotherhood of Light and destroys their champion, which leads to his confronting and killing his own son Trevor unknowingly, which later causes Trevor to rise as the vampire Alucard. Playing the villain to strengthen his grandson Simon, Dracula later enacts a plan with Alucard to destroy their enemies, the evil Lord of Shadow Zobek and Satan himself: allowing himself to be impaled and placed in hibernation for centuries, Dracula knows Zobek will awaken him to destroy Satan, and when Dracula regains his memory, he and Alucard can destroy both. Even at the end, Dracula shows why he is the supreme lord of darkness and chosen of God simultaneously by destroying Zobek and even fooling Satan in the final battle before finishing him for good.
- Final Fantasy XV: Ardyn Izunia, true name Ardyn Lucis Caelum, poses as a "man of no consequence", but is far older and far more devious than he initially seems. As the Chancellor of the Niflheim Empire, Ardyn arranges for the invasion and destruction of Lucis's capital city Insomnia, and later reveals his true colors by fatally stabbing the game's heroine Luna upon her summoning of Leviathan, resulting in greater damage and the deaths of nearly everyone in Altissia. With Luna's death, an affliction known as the Starscourge is allowed to run rampant, turning many into monstrous daemons as the nights grow longer. Fixated on his chosen nemesis, Prince Noctis, Ardyn tricks him into almost murdering his best friend Prompto by making Noct see Prompto as Ardyn. Turning on Niflheim, Ardyn lets daemons run rampant throughout the city, annihilating it and turning many of the people into Daemons themselves, leaving them in hideous pain. In addition, Ardyn reveals he is the one who taught Niflheim how to convert people to living weapons to begin with, kills Luna's brother Ravus when he finally had a change of heart and decided to help Noct and tricks Noct into being absorbed by the Crystal that is the source of power for the line of Lucis so Noct may arise as the Chosen King and Ardyn may destroy him.Having once been rejected by the land he served and saved, Ardyn showcases his devious charm in every scene he appears in, manipulating almost every event in the game, rarely ever at loss for a smile and a witty remark as one of the most memorable and charming villains in the Final Fantasy canon.
edited 25th Jun '18 6:37:01 AM by Lightysnake
Alright now...OG Dracula!
So, who is Dracula?
Dracula, lord of Darkness, master of the night....was once a knight named Matthias Cronqvist. A crusader alongside his best friend Leon Belmont. Leon was the warrior while Matthias was the strategist. A rare genius, Matthias brought them to victory countless times.. Unfortunately, one day, Matthias's beloved wife Elisabetha took ill and died....Matthias was stricken by an illness in grief and collapsed. Some time after, Leon's beloved fiancee Sara was kidnapped...Matthias roused himself in time to warn Leon and direct him...setting off Lament of Innocence. Sara was kidnapped and bitten by vampire lord Walter Bernhard....and sacrificed herself to complete a weapon known as the Vampire Killer so Leon may destroy Walter. Leon did...only for Death himself to appear and take Walter's soul....and at that point, Matthias executes a Just As Planned...he was the one who manipulated everything, all so that Walter could be defeated and Death could give Walter's soul to Matthias, transforming him into a vampire...his ultimate vengeance and rebellion against God for Elisabeta's death. Leon rejects Matthias's offer to rule alongside him and defeats Death, vowing that the Belmont Clan will forever fight against Matthias (and kill an entire time of day!) ...Matthias soon takes a new name....Dracula.
Centuries pas and Dracula is the untouchable lord of evil when he is approached by a woman named Lisa. Lisa is a healer who wants his knowledge to help others and for the first time, Dracula knew love again. They had a son Adrian (who would become Alucard)...but then Lisa was kiiinda burned alive for practicing medicine. her last words were a plea not to hate humans...which Dracula sadly didn't hear. He brought his war against humanity, opposed only by the Belmont Clan. Despite being defeated, he left an elaborate plan to return, barely thwarted by his former Devil Forgemaster Hector. ...Dracula then proceeds to revive every century, constantly finding a way to return, always getting THIS close to winning, with endless tenacity and always coming THIS close to taking over the world and subjugating humanity before the Belmonts or Alucard lay him to rest again. Finally, in 1999, Dracula is separated from his castle in the void and destroyed for good and all by Julius Belmont, with his soul reincarnating into a young man named Soma Cruz in modern day.
So, is he charismatic? Charming? A good planner?
Absolutely. In all his incarnations, Dracula is always refined and polite as hell, Affably Evil at its finest. He genuinely respects his closest minions and (narmy voice acting aside), he waxes philosophy and poetic, always adopting an air of noble superiority as you'd expect from Dracula himself.
As for planning? As Matthias, he was a genius strategist, and his plot to become a vampire was utter brilliance. As Dracula? Well, he does always come within a hairsbreadth from winning again and again and is hinted to only keep losing because God/fate is siding with the Belmonts over and over. And when he wants to plan, he can plan...in Castlevania 64, he manipulates everyone into doing what he wants by appearing as a boy named Malus and damn well near brings them to ruin.
You also have to admire a guy this crazy tenacious who will rise from the dead this many times to achieve what he wants and never, ever submit.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
He's Dracula...his method of becoming Dracula? Get his best friend's fiancee killed, manipulate said best friend into doing the work and when Leon rejects his We Can Rule Together offer, Dracula ordered Death to finish him off. He means to subjugate the world, crush humanity beneath his heel and will happily kill the Belmonts.
THAT said...as a human, he truly, deeply, utterly loved Elisabetha and her death drove him past the Despair Event Horizon. He did consider Leon his friend and waa genuine about his wish to have Leon join him. His villainous respect is often utter truthful and he also loved Lisa greatly, her death setting him off against humanity. He also cares about Alucard and wants to have him back on his side.
He does have a tendency to really like the company of young women and offer to have them at his side, but he's pretty...gentlemanly about it, and seems more a suitor making a proposal when he does than a creepy lech. When he faces Shanoa in Order of Ecclesia? He's an utter gentleman to her and happily offers her a spot at his side. And in Symphony of the Night, he states that he is is ever only called back by humans who wish to pay him tribute.
the other thing? He's also genuine friends with Death, who is utterly faithful and loyal to him, as Scraggle pointed out, in Portait of Ruin, when Dracula and Death fight together, Death loses first and willingly gives himself to a Devour the Dragon scenario to empower Dracula more.
Conclusion?
I think I'm convinced. Dracula is a brilliant planner and one of the most tenacious baddies imaginable. Keeper.
Yes for other Drac
Okay so I’ve been thinking about doing him for a while so after watching the anime adaptation and the playthroughs I think its time I give him a proper EP from the world of BlazBlue.
What’s the Work?
Blazblue is a series of fighting video games taking place in a Science Fantasy world. It revolves around Ragna the Bloodege being hunted down by the tyrannical Novus Orbis Librarium (N.O.L for short) One of the N.O.L’s most prominent members is Relius Clover the baddie I shall be discussing!
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Relius Clover, aka “The Puppeteer”, a colonel in the NOL and its residential Mad Scientist.
Originally a vigilante partnered with Valkenhayn as well as the leader of the Ten Sages of Ishana, he dedicated his life to science and how he can change use it to change the world. He was met by Yuuki Terumi who helped Relius in his research to recreate Kusanagi 100 years ago, while asking Relius to make him a body. Relius agreed to Yuuki’s demands which eventually led to the Black Beast emerging from a Cauldron and Relius being sucked in.
After being swallowed by the Black Beast and sent 80 years into the future, Relius eventually regains his memories. He also saw what he claimed to be the "true form" of every person, their souls and did not like how dumb and simple they all are losing all belief in humanity. Believing the he alone guide the world into what he’s see as a more prosperous future, Relius's plans is to become "The Architect": and would rid the world of all humans, repopulating it with his perfect dolls and would do so with the help of his old colleague Terumi their new partner Hades Izami.
For his goal to come to fruition, He would founded the NOL Military Academy in hopes of observing the students' hidden potentials and turn them into his perfected doll. Among these students include Ignis whom he married and had two children a daughter Ada and a son Carl. Relius would also turn his own wife and daughter, Ignis and Ada into lifeless weaponized dolls which his Carl took Ada away from Relius, in his efforts to turn Ada back to normal.
If that weren’t enough, he also manipulates the likes of Sector Seven and Kokonoe Mercury in recreating the Nox Nyctores Nirvana and producing an energy core that could benefit himself and his visions of the world, while also manipulating Litchi into joining his team on the pretense that he can cure her lover Arakune. With his dream nearly coming to fruition he would decree Arakune as the new Black Beast, and Ignis as the new Master Unit. However, Hades Izami decides to backstab Relius along with Terumi while hijacking his master plan for her own nihilistic desires.
Now at the mercy of his son Carl, Relius manages to convince him to spare his life on the promise that he can turn Ada back into a human. Carl reluctantly complies to Relius where he would eventually corrupt Carl with his twisted worldview to Carl. This leads to Carl to go the boundary and getting his eye shot out, while Relius would use this opportunity to retreat, never really planning on turning Ada back to normal.
Retreating back to the Boundary he decides to prefers to just obverse the ongoing conflict that he help sew because from there he's done/bored with the world. In the end Relius gets to watch Izanami and Terumi/Hazama meet their demise by game's end, with satisfaction because all while his cohorts may die Relius manages to escape karmic retribution, knowing that he can always start again his dream of becoming the world's “Architect”.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
For intelligence, Relius Clover is one NOL’s greatest minds and chief scientist so this is definitely a given. He has manipulated others like puppets and treat it like sheer child’s play, hence his nickname “Thr Puppeteer". He has a number of flexible backup plans for any situations and is capable of improvisation to boot, so he can walk away with at least something learned for the future.
One of many examples is when he once conned Sector Seven into providing him research and materials for the mechanized weapon known as "Fluctus Redactum: Ignis", up to and including manipulating Kokonoe into evoking a larval Black Beast and compressing it with "Infinite Gravity" into a core for Ignis to use.
Granted, he isn't perfect (as are many other MBs) Kokonoe catches on to what he goaded her into doing and cut him down with Nirvana while he was defenseless, but nonetheless he’s hardly ever shaken when his plans go awry. Hell he also faked his own death so that he could enable his placement with NOL and to give him time to complete Ignis without Kokonoe's interference.
The fact that Relius hardly ever looses his cool, also enhances his charisma which Travis Willingham plays him with absolute charm and brilliance. Not only that but Relius is very Wicked Cultured, enjoying watching operas and reading books and is a major Ensemble Dark Horse amongst the fandom.
Really, the only time Relius comes close to loosing his composure is when Izanami, a literal Goddess of Death, betrays him and even then in a similar vein to out Princess Azula, he quickly regains it and decides to manipulate Carl for his own ends while getting to watch with satisfaction that Izamami and Yuuki get their karmic retribution all while managing to escape his own.
What’s The Competition Like?
Now the only ones to match him in terms of intellect and how much influence to the whole story of Blazblue are Yuuki Terumi and Hades Izamami. That said those two have some factors that keep them from qualifying as true MBs.
Yuuki Terumi, also known as Hazama and Susanoo, is shown to be very manipulative and intelligent himself being responsible for much of the hardships Ragna and his friends had to go through. However, Yuuki also happens to be such a needlessly sadistic smug troll, who brags on his self demonstration page on how much better is at trolling than Eric Cartman.
Now Hades Izamami comes off as more pleasant and tolerable than Yuuki. However she was once regarded as a Generic Doomsday Villain who wanted to destroy all life just because and even when given more characterization in Chrono Phantasm and Central Fiction her whole basically just terms to destroying all life because there’s no meaning to it and I’m a nihilist, not really having enough personality flare too truly be magnificent.
Now for Relius he’s never a smug, vulgar, sadistic troll like Yuuki nor a emotionless nihilist like Hades. He’s always Wicked Cultured and Faux Affably Evil to the end and always has style and flare with his manipulations and fighting skills. The fact that he contributes just as much to the plot as Yuuki and Hades, while managing to get away with it all while the other two don’t, while he's only a human with the other two being literal GODS, only make Relius stand out more.
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
Given that he’s list as a CM along with Yuuki and Izami, I’d say he makes it as a bastard. He performs heinous experiments on his NOL students, his own family, and other innocent people, manipulates governments other scientist into carrying out his deeds, and is willing to betray his own son when the time arises.
That said unlike Yuuki and Hades, he does have an goal that doesn’t just border on sadism or nihilism. Also unlike the other two, he really was a genuinely kind, caring, and thoughtful person who did have the idealistic goal of making the world into a better place. He still has this idealistic goal, but its become quite twisted thanks to his newfound sociopathic view on humanity. Even so, he still is much more pragmatic in his operations than Yuuki and Hades and does show respect to his enemies, and at one point called his son Carl his greatest creation.
So yeah compared to the other two CMs Relius really comes across as the least despicable and most charming.
Final Verdict?
This is my first attempt at a CM/MB crossover, so I’m really hoping for the best!
edited 24th Jun '18 2:37:24 AM by G-Editor