Lost in Space
I'm not sure that Muppet as a trope is even definable. It might be better suited for a Useful Notes page.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Nah, it's a trope. A very broadly defined trope, but that does not make it not a trope.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
So, you mean any Puppet? Why not just call it "Puppet", then?
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Because you don't blow your nose with tissue paper. "Puppet" is much broader than "muppet-style puppet".
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Zzzzzzzzzz
The puppets in Avenue Q are not, technically, "Muppets" because they are not Henson products. But they're indistinguishable from Muppets in construction and operation. It's a trademark thing.
If we wanted to be absolute purists, "Muppets" would only be Henson creatures, and all other similar puppets would be "Muppet-like". Personally, I think leaving the page called "Muppets" and making the distinction on the page between Actual Muppets and Muppet-like is sufficient.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
But how does R2-D2 qualify as either of those things?
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
I don't think it does. The Muppet wiki says they're robots
. I don't think they even count as puppets.
That's the trouble with this page; the description is vague enough to include anything you want.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
You're exaggerating, especially since you used a non-puppet (description specifies puppet) to make your case.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
But it's a symptom of a vaguely-defined trope. "If this page misuses the term, then why can't I?"
It's like if we had a page called "Disney" that was about all kids' animation. That wouldn't be accurate at all, which is why we have All Animation Is Disney debunking that myth. It's the same deal here, but a bit more obscure.
The page tries to save itself by mentioning the non-existent Brand Name Takeover, which in reality seem to be either Role Association jokes ("Count Dooku fought a Muppet!") or Cowboy Be Bop At His Computer (instead of All Animation Is Disney, It's All Puppets Are Muppets).
edited 14th Dec '16 6:43:33 PM by TropesForever
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
The majority of modern puppets are "muppet-style puppets". That's why Henson is said to have revolutionized the puppet industry. Modern puppetry mostly imitates his original style.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
I know, but that doesn't make them Muppets. Disney revolutionized animation, but we call all animation Disney.
Muppet is not so much a trope as it is a technical term like Bullet Time, which is actually a trademarked term but that doesn't mean people don't utilize similar techniques. Trademarks are different from copyrights, as non-Henson Workshop people can't use the term Muppet but they can create Muppet-like props all they want. I don't see much purpose in creating a new page for Muppet-like props.
Note that this can be serious business, Hasbro has taken pains to ensure that Transformers doesn't become a genericized term to describe any toy that changes appearance in a similar manner, and so instructions use the term "to convert" instead of "to transform." Aspirin was originally a coined term for acetylsalicylic acid by Bayer, but entered general vocabulary for that type of headache medicine and cannot be trademarked in the US anymore, and any drug company can call it aspirin.
I know it's a trope, I just don't like the name. But if no one else cares, fine. That's why I opened this as Trope Talk instead of TRS.
Taking a moment to focus on Franchise.The Muppets, I think the Creature Shop stuff should go to Creator.Jim Hensons Creature Shop, which would include both Henson-created shows like Farscape, Dinosaurs Labyrinth and others, along with other produtions like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Five Nights at Freddy's.
Also of interest: an old thread. It has several good reasons for this case, but the crowner inexplicably voted not to rename it.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Considering the majority of posters disagree with your rationale, it is not inexplicable.
On the flip side, I do think we should have a page for Creator.Jim Hensons Creature Shop because they're not part of The Muppets as a franchise.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
If no one else thinks it's a good idea, then I concede defeat on the issue of the name.
edited 14th Dec '16 6:49:12 PM by TropesForever
I don't know if this warrants a TRS thread, but there needs to be some discussion of it. Does the trope Muppet refer to any advanced puppet, a puppet made by Jim Henson or his company, or specifically characters from The Muppets?
The description begins with the legal definition, mentioning a Brand Name Takeover which is no more a existent than Mickey Mouse being a Brand Name Takeover for animation. Then it goes into the "marionettes + puppets" misconception, links to the (specifically Henson) Muppet Wiki, and talks about the completely unrelated British slang.
The examples are a mix of actual Muppets, Creature Shop characters, and whatever the hell Tropers feel like throwing in (R2-D2 is a Muppet? really?) The whole thing just makes me feel like screaming "Stop Being Wrong
."
I think this trope should be about advanced puppets and animatronics (including but not limited to Henson-created ones), while actual Muppets go to Franchise.The Muppets if they're major characters, or Muppet Cameo if they're only cameos. Speaking of the former page, it contains its own unorganized list with several Creature Shop productions that aren't part of the Muppet Franchise.