A dub and localization name problem

I feel like this is a topic that merits more discussion than simply being put in the franchise's discussion page, and moreover it's also something I want the opinion of unbiased third parties who aren't fans of the franchise for.

So, Digimon. The story behind this one: when the anime aired from 1999-2003 it was English dubbed with name changes and all else, like pretty much every other anime around that time. So naturally, for those who grew up with the English dub, the dub names stuck. Fair enough.

The problem is, the anime went on hiatus until 2006, and around that time the general awareness of Japanese anime improved. As a result, the original Japanese version started to get popular - far more than those of other anime from that time - and by the time Digimon Savers came along, people were watching that one originally in Japanese (I think there are probably more people who have seen that one in Japanese than the ones who haven't). Furthermore, after a while the Japanese one had gained enough of a fanbase that eventually all of the old series had been fully fansubbed - some even multiple times - and even among those who had grown up with the dub there were people who preferred the Japanese version for whatever reason. (The difference between the dub and original has been analyzed quite thoroughly by the fanbase; it's quite tangible, far more than the whole "people always think the original is better" sentiment.)

So after the anime went on hiatus again and the franchise nearly died off in the West, we have a serious problem. The dub still latches on in mainstream memory - if you ask anyone who's not into the fanbase, they'll know the dub names far better than the Japanese. (It was one of those anime where the dub names were lightly derived from the original, so they'll recognize the Japanese names, but they won't be as familiar.) But the fanbase itself is in a clean split - there are people who obviously favor the dub and will complain if you're too Japanese-purist, but the Japanese-favoring fanbase is big enough that they can't be discounted, and in addition the English dub has very little influence outside English-speaking territories, meaning that international fans who hang out in English-speaking websites (TV Tropes or otherwise) end up extremely confused.

That would be one thing, but in terms of online database categorization? An abject nightmare - for the Digimon themselves, between different series of the anime or video games there's tons of internal contradiction as to what the localized names and attacks even are, and because half the material never even made it outside Japan, it's hard to pick which dub names should reflect back on them. Furthermore, some of the anime (including the recent Digimon Adventure tri., a sequel to the old 1999-2001 series) has official subtitles now, which uses Japanese human names and English Digimon names, and it's become especially apparent that tri. follows the Japanese version far more than it even approaches the 15-year-old English dub.

The reason I bring this up as an issue is that the franchise pages are a mess. Because both the dub name camps and the Japanese name camps are so significant, whenever people add entries they add stuff with the name set they prefer, and then the page ends up using a weird alternation mix of the two. Sometimes someone comes and tries to standardize the names, only for someone else to come over and decide they don't like it and change it, and then someone else adds another addition with different names - it's basically an ongoing implicit edit war and it's really hard to read it. And the thing is, this happens on almost every page relevant to the franchise. Is there any way we can agree on a standard and plaster it on the page?

Or is this not something worth addressing? I'm sorry for the very, very tl;dr post.

edited 4th Dec '15 1:23:47 AM by AsterSelene

This is an issue very much worth discussing. We have a few rules in place and the Digimon franchise fans have run afoul of this before, but there are indeed several awkward parts of our rules.

The first rule that is relevant to this problem is that this is an English-Language wiki. That means if there is an official English version, we accept that version, not a fan-made version. In cases where there are not an official English translation, we use the closest approximation to the original language. For Digimon, this means we pick the best romanization of the character names we can find. We do not accept a fan translation, or pick the most popular one.

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That looks like most of the problems in your OP... there's some Edit War issues you mention, but that should be cleared up by informing everyone about the Wiki's rules for translations.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

That makes sense. However, if that position is to be taken, then what should we do about the mass inconsistency between official localizations? Although it makes sense within individual pages where the dub pertains to itself, there's a general franchise page where there's obviously going to be mixture, and in the cases of things like Digimon Adventure tri. where there's an officially subtitled Japanese version but no dub, yet succeeds after two anime series with a dub and dub name changes, there should be some kind of enforced standard for how to deal with this, and when to use the dub or Japanese names.

Out of interest:

• Digimon Adventure, Digimon Adventure 02, Digimon Tamers, Digimon Xros Wars, Digimon Xros Wars: The Young Hunters Leaping Through Time, and Digimon Adventure tri. have official subtitled versions with Japanese human names. (Digimon names are inconsistent.)
• Digimon World, Digimon World 2, Digimon World 3, Digimon World 4, Digimon Battle Spirit, Digimon Digital Card Battle, Digimon World DS, Digimon World Dawn/Dusk, Digimon Story: Cyber Sleuth, and Digimon World Data Squad have localizations, with inconsistent use of Digimon names, but mostly (mostly) dub names in regards to humans.
• Digimon Adventure, Digimon Adventure 02, Digimon Tamers, Digimon Frontier, and Digimon Xros Wars have English dubs with English dub names. (It should be pointed out that some of these also have Southeast Asian English dubs, with Japanese names - will have to run through a friend with this since she knows them more closely.)
• Everything else has no localization or dub.

edited 4th Dec '15 9:48:21 AM by AsterSelene

I believe for inconsistencies concerning multiple dubs for the same work, we use the most recent official one. The other names used can be listed in parenthesis.

edited 4th Dec '15 10:18:56 AM by Karxrida

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

When picking the name for the work page itself, we usually prefer the first official title available in English, even if there are later ones that happen to be more popular. If there is none, we use the original non-English title. I think that'd be a good starting point, at least.

Check out my fanfiction!

We have a rule for that as well. Most recent English-language adaptation, unless there are multiple concurrent adaptations. If there are multiple concurrent adaptations (Like Harry Potter had the original British "Philosopher's Stone" and the American localization "Sorcerer's Stone") then we use the first of the concurrent works (In Harry Potter, we have Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone).

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Just to be particularly clear, in the presence of both officual subtitles and a dub, which takes priority (I assume whatever comes later), and in the case of the Japanese version having an explicitly spelled out English title in Roman characters that it uses officially but the English dub using a completely different name, which takes priority (I assume the latter)?

I'm sorry, I must sound like I'm being terribly difficult! But ultimately what's most important to me is that it follows a consistent standard that can be clear to future editors, no matter what we go with.

• In the presence of both official subtitles and official dubs, which takes priority?
  • If they are released concurrently, then the earlier one. If they are released after a lapse of licencing rights, then the most recent release.

• In the case of the Japanese version having an explicitly spelled out English title in Roman characters that it uses officially but the English dub using a completely different name, which takes priority?
  • You are correct that we use the official English dub name. If fans came out and did a fandub of the product, it doesn't affect our website.

edited 4th Dec '15 8:18:59 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I'm finally done with finals, so I can start working on assisting with making the pages look like they should. Would this be an acceptable suggestion for the guidelines?

• Digimon Adventure: Japanese names as per the Netflix license from a year ago. Consistent with Digimon Adventure tri.'s current status of Japanese-only. (The term DigiDestined is still used in "official" materials instead of the more literal "Chosen Children", so using that at least would be advisable.)
• Digimon Adventure 02: Also Japanese names as per the Funimation license from 2008.
• Digimon Tamers: Japanese names as per Hulu license from 2011.
• Digimon Frontier: No official Japanese subtitled version; dub names.
• Digimon Savers: No official Japanese subtitled version; dub names. Needs to be renamed to Digimon Data Squad as per official title. (Note that Japanese materials actually spell out "Digimon Savers" in English and Roman characters, but...?)
• Digimon Xros Wars: Official subtitles were simulcast with the (incomplete) dub three years afterwards. Would three years be considered short enough to be considered concurrent, or...?
• Digimon Adventure tri.: No dub exists, so Japanese names.
• Franchise page and relevant pages should use dub Digimon names and terminology.

Also, would it be acceptable to make separate pages for the three movies that were cut and pasted into Digimon: The Movie? Said "movie" may be their only official English releases, but we do have articles for the works that made up Robotech on top of the page itself...

• Official subtitles were simulcast with the (incomplete) dub three years afterwards.
  • How can you have a simultaneous broadcast of an episode three years apart?
  • I'm guessing you meant the original Japanese episodes were simulcast with English dubs online, and three years later they released a new English dub without captioning that only covered a few of the episodes. In that case, it is clear that additional work was spent over the three year gap, making that one their preferred localization.
• Digimon The Movie may be considered a separate work from the three movies that were cut-and-paste into the English work, just like we have articles for the works that made up Robotech on top of the page itself.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

We are not interested in the Subbing Versus Dubbing wars; this is the context that we are interested in.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.