The Scrappy Cleanup

Honestly the worst you could say about Shadow in the Boom game is that They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character. Anything else is stretching it.

edited 14th Mar '17 11:32:29 PM by Karxrida

Not really. It's not a stretch to say he's pointlessly dark for no reason whatsoever. He has pretty much zip motivation.

For whatever reason, they took his personality and removed anything that actually made him likable for the Boom series. Although he wasn't too popular for being too dark in his own game, it at least had memes and such to counteract it. This dropped all of that.

The show copied over his personality, but also didn't make anything better at all. As my edit noted, he had zero motivation "I'm here to defeat Sonic" and was left at that. At best, his motivation is barely better, since he thinks that everybody else is too damn silly and that the show needed real seriousness, but that didn't do much other than completely kill the tone of the show. It wasn't even played for laughs once he hit the scene. His entire purpose so far is to be extremely dark and lacking in any comedy or real personality. And yes, the pointlessly dark bit is a major reason why he's disliked. Lacking motivation isn't the biggest deal in the world, but forcing a shift in tone along with it really hurt the characterization. Especially after regular Shadow is pretty much known for having motivation for doing just about anything, being one of his biggest and most important characterization points.

Nobody is exaggerating the issues with the character.

The only real point to consider is whether people warmed up to him or not among the fandom. If not, throw him in the scrappy section that he earned. If so, base-breaker.

x6 IMO they should be listed. The Scrappy should list the who what where when why and which works and Rescued should state the changes made, when and what effect it had.

For example

The Scrappy

• Metal Gear Solid 2 Raiden was seen as The Scrappy in the game due to how he Replacement Scrappy for Snake, His dislike was so prominent that for the next game they turned him into a joke. In the Metal Gear Solid 3's secret theater he is turned into The Chew Toy as he time travels in attempts to hijack that game too, including a Prison Rape Rape as Comedy joke.

• Metal Gear Solid 4: Raiden is heavily retooled from a massively hated emo Bishōnen into a Cyborg Ninja killing machine non player character. His role in the game is pretty small but resonated with the fans so much he got his own chance for the spotlight again in his own spinoff game Metal Gear Rising Revengeance.

edited 14th Mar '17 11:55:01 PM by Memers

I think we're watching a differnt cartoon here because literally EVERYTHING in Sonic Boom is played for laughs. The show is literally fueled by Rule of Funny and the absurdity of Eggman's villian worshop of Shadow was part of the joke.

His edgy personality is also a parody of not only his own game but the fandoms views of him. Please tell me how his crack about "bringing shame to all hedgehog kind" WASN'T meant to be absurd.

On top though, we need a clear line of whose staying in the game folder so I can clean it. We have Big (with the note this only applies to his SA 1 appearance) and Navi-Chao for sure and so far the discussion is split on Marine and Charmy. Who else remains?

edited 15th Mar '17 12:22:01 AM by shoboni

Shadow himself was still played seriously entirely. It's other characters who tried to keep comedic, but the episode was overly dark due to one character.

Definitely watching the same show, but he himself is never played for laughs, unfortunately.

But as I said, unless people warmed up to him, he should be thrown into the scrappy section that he earned. If not, base-breaking. There has been zero attempts at redeeming him either way.

Marine should be base-breaking unless a lot of people actually thought her coming back during the final story redeemed her(it wasn't a very good redeeming point, but if was that opinion, then yeah, base-breaker now. She definitely started off as a scrappy, but apparently is redeemed?)

Charmy doesn't belong in the scrappy section, though. He's a base-breaker at best. It was mainly his overly childish appearance in Heroes that got a lot of ire, but he wasn't unpopular in other areas, and this isn't even his first notable appearance.

You covered Big pretty well, so let's stick with that plan.

Thus far we seem to agree on removing Charmy, Cream, Silver, and clarifying Big was only a Scrappy in his first appearance (I think being a member of Team Rose in Heroes and his hidden depths there displayed with defending Cream redeemed him for a lot of people) So I'll do that right quick.

Marine though, I can't seem to recall seeing ANY legit hate for her so I'm wondering it was a vocal minority that mellowed out over the years?

I think we all agree regardless of personal stance Elise got a bad enough reaction to stay.

I still disagree on Shadow, in the cartoon he's almost like The Comically Serious where being so serious and absurdly edgy in such a comedic setting IS the joke. Especially with his over the top dialog and contrast to the wacky villains.

I know nothing of lost world, so can some verify The Deadly Six?

We also still have the example with the fanboys from Olymipic Games to discuss because it seems like the obnoxious is an intentional plot point from what I'm reading.

edited 15th Mar '17 12:53:32 AM by shoboni

Most of it was her being an annoyance and people were very glad that Blaze called her out on it. Base-breaker would be most accurate if anything. Also, any hate is legit anyway. They're either hated or they're not. Base-breaker just means they're both. Being a vocal minority means she'd really be a base breaker instead. It's been a long time since the game happened and she never appeared since then outside of a tiny cameo in the Olympic games, so there's not much reason for them to think of her. Many fans probably didn't play Rush Adventure as well. I'm guessing they mellowed out over the years since she's the opposite of prominent. Hence, base-breaker is the only one that could make some sense.

Regardless, Shadow was not very well-liked in Boom either way. Base-breaker seems accurate here at this point. And likely will in the future with his later appearances and all.

Current removals I've made:

• Cream the Rabbit is quite popular in Japan, but opinion on her is very mixed in western territories, due to her soft and always-happy nature. To some she's a Badass Adorable for being a Game-Breaker in her debut game, but to others she's simply a Cousin Oliver thrown in the mix as an additional Kid-Appeal Character.
• Charmy Bee is widely disliked due to his bratty characterization and irritating voice.
• Silver the Hedgehog, also from Sonic '06, qualifies as well. Mainly for taking everything an Obviously Evil Devil in Plain Sight says at face value and causing Elise to get kidnapped over and over again, forcing Sonic to spend nearly the whole game rescuing her. Not to mention, That One Boss battle against him in Sonic's story. (IT'S NO USE!!!!!)
  • He was Rescued from the Scrappy Heap in Sonic Generations, where he was given a great boss fight and a much better voice, courtesy of Quinton Flynn.

So, cut or keep with Marine?

I'm leaning cut because people seem to not react badly to her appearances in the comic.

Other matters in my post need handled as well.

Can I have permission to cut the Ao St H entry in TV/Animation right now? It lists Sonic himself for complainly reasons.

• Sonic sadistically tortures Robotnik, Scratch, Grounder, and Coconuts. Even when Coconuts decides to run away and possibly be good, Sonic tells him to stay with Robotnik, since he wouldn't have anyone to recharge his batteries otherwise.. Not to mention he slams on bar tables, insults the bartenders, and whines while he waits. What a jackass!

edited 15th Mar '17 12:59:07 AM by shoboni

Cut that last Sonic entry. Oy.

Marine would only apply in her main video game appearance if at all. Keep in mind she was not liked in Rush Adventure. Her Comics appearance is an entirely different character version overall and pretty irrelevant. But yeah, she's still a base-breaker if anything, which works fine in the Rush Adventure entry and nowhere else(it could be mentioned on the general YMMV, but only if it mentions that particular game, as she's liked in the comics).

Other entries look fine besides the AOSTH one.

Example cut:

• Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog:
  • Sonic sadistically tortures Robotnik, Scratch, Grounder, and Coconuts. Even when Coconuts decides to run away and possibly be good, Sonic tells him to stay with Robotnik, since he wouldn't have anyone to recharge his batteries otherwise.. Not to mention he slams on bar tables, insults the bartenders, and whines while he waits. What a jackass!

Now what about the Deadly Six and the Miis? I think the Miis are disqualified for being intentionally obnoxious for plot related reasons.

The the animation front we have Dulcy that seems question to me, Sonic and Manic also say right on the entry "heavily YMMV" which raised red flags for me.

In Comics I'd like out to cut Drago because he's an intentionally hatable bad guy that's treated as a complete scumbag even in-universe. Dulcy and Antione also seem questionable because they seem both liked by the comic's fandom.

edited 15th Mar '17 11:31:44 AM by shoboni

Shadow is much more well-received in the show, with general consensus that the only real bad thing about him is a dislike of Thornton's method of voicing him. While he is still a Base-Breaking Character, he is most definitely rescued.

EDIT: Also, anything on Dusan and Lenni?

edited 15th Mar '17 12:38:00 PM by Riley1sCool

Cut Sonic and Manic from the Sonic Underground entry. No way that makes sense with that kind of entry. Even if it were possible(but doubtful), the entry would need a serious rewrite. Base-breaking I could see, though.

It's hard to describe Dulcy and why she's hated, but I do remember there being hate. Research that one first, but base-breaker might be more accurate.

The Deadly Six I don't know enough about, though. Can't really speak on it.

I've definitely heard people complain about the Deadly Six for having very shallow, stereotypical, and one dimensional personalities. That said, I think there's nontrivial amounts of Deadly Six fanart.

Should I nuke the Underground entries altogether?

The characters themselves don't seem to be hated so much as they're part of show that had poor reception do to distance form the source material.

Sonia and Manic as characters seem to have neutral-to-positive treatment form the fandom.

Cut the random sub-bullet about Sonic and Manic, at least because it IS a zero context example just complaining about the show and it's stupid to complain about a kid's cartoon from the 90s using the Totally Radical trope since it was par for the era and genre.

• Sonic and Manic, of course, due to Totally Radical personalities, though YMMV as well due to some character development.

edited 15th Mar '17 4:17:57 PM by shoboni

If you look up opinions on the Deadly Six, you're bound to get plenty of results of them receiving flack for problems like their one-dimensional stereotypical personalities, their oni-inspired designs being out of place in the Sonic series, or lackluster boss fights.

And while they do have fans and get a good chunk of fanart, it's overshadowed by the criticism they have received. It's the same case with Bubsy, who has his share of fans and fanart, but all of that is overshadowed by his dubious reputation of being one of the biggest Scrappies in video gaming.

I've doubts about Saint Seiya scrappy list. While Saori qualify because she is also a Damsel Scrappy, the rest of the characters are more a Base-Breaking Character (and Seiya an example of Americans Hate Tingle).

Still working on the Sonic Page.

What does everything think of Drago in the comic and the Mii characters The Olympic Games? Both sound questionable.

edited 18th Mar '17 5:23:13 PM by shoboni

Miis are just generally popular as is. Feels like a shoehorn. Maybe base-breaking for being everywhere, but they weren't added "just because" but because they're extremely popular characters to put into games due to the Wii's huge success and how well they worked in tons of games being used as more "generic avatars"(and not just because that's their base purpose as an avatar itself, but because it worked great for tons of games).

The Mario & Sonic games are like Mario Party, nobody is particularly more than just a different model in the same weight class and a bunch of stats related to that weight class.

This was for the fanboy Miis, where the entry discredits itself by saying there was a plot-related reason for them being obnoxious.

• It's easy to come to dislike the two Miis wearing Mario and Sonic suits respectively in Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games' "Road to Rio" mode. The two are nothing short of shallow Mario/Sonic fanboys who immediately try to drag you into their feud the second you arrive. After that, the two will constantly badmouth the other team and blame the other side for everything from their team's captain being inactive to stealing their own medals from the Hall of medals. It's no surprise to learn that they're working for Bowser and Eggman. Though, given that Eggman brainwashed them in the first place you can't blame their actions.

Okay, the context changes a lot. That said, I could see it being a proper example... but it needs rewriting. It's far longer that it needs to be and not all the information is relevant. We don't need to know about the brainwashing, since it's trying to make us feel sorry for them. Due to this, it may seem more like a Hate Sink, since they're designed to be annoying.

IMO as someone that hasn't played the game, that sounds to me like a disqualifer if they were DESIGNED to be obnoxious and have an in-story reason for it.

edited 18th Mar '17 10:41:54 PM by shoboni

Eeyup. No way this wasn't intentional in some way, but they have a legit excuse.

Should I slice it off, then?

Make like Omega and fire away.

It's been destroyed, entry re-post for posterity

• It's easy to come to dislike the two Miis wearing Mario and Sonic suits respectively in Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games' "Road to Rio" mode. The two are nothing short of shallow Mario/Sonic fanboys who immediately try to drag you into their feud the second you arrive. After that, the two will constantly badmouth the other team and blame the other side for everything from their team's captain being inactive to stealing their own medals from the Hall of medals. It's no surprise to learn that they're working for Bowser and Eggman. Though, given that Eggman brainwashed them in the first place you can't blame their actions.