Five-Man Band cleanup

Just so you know, I'm not actually advocating any renames of anything for which Sailor Moon is the Trope Namer. I'm just a bit frustrated about the whole naming thing, and also wondering whether In the Name of the Moon would be called, well, In the Name of the Moon if it were in YKTTW today.

I certainly hope it wouldn't.

See? My application of the Slippery Slope Fallacy with my worries that Sailor Moon is too obscure to us Westerners to be a good Trope Namer has at least some basis. So I may be Properly Paranoid here.

Except you're approaching it from the wrong direction: generally speaking, Trope Namers aren't thought of as "good" by the wiki today period, and the existence of counterexamples from an earlier time - that only survive due to the Grandfather Clause - is not reason to change that. It doesn't really have to do with the specific obscurity of any individual work.

edited 14th Sep '14 8:34:14 PM by nrjxll

Jiminy H. Christmas... I have a feeling it's going to be I Eat Metaphor For Breakfast all over again.

It has come to my attention that we have a Four-Man Band comedic trope, so since Tropers Dont Read, we'll have shoehorning of Five-Man Band's into that. Someone could go down and check. The Four-Man Band archetypes are Only Sane Man, The Smart Guy, The Pervert and The Butt-Monkey. Other uses are also something we could clean up, but we're only looking for this thread's remit (misuse of Five-Man Band) in this thread, everything else should go elsewhere.

While trying to clean-up all the Four-Man Band used for Five-Man Band -1, I found Shaman King. Five Man Bands containing Six or more members.

I checked for misuse. Deleted all non-relevant Square Peg Round Trope entries. The Four-Man Band needs looking at, but shoehorning in the ensembles will get there eventually.

edited 15th Sep '14 8:53:36 AM by TheOneWhoTropes

The Dagger and the Coin has both a Five-Man Band and Five Bad Band example, both of which are Square Peg Round Trope.

To begin with, both "groups" aren't really bands- it's just that there are two opossed political conspiracies and about 5 people of prominence on each side. The Five-Man Band also has a male Chick example.

Besides the above, I can't really argue against the Five-Man Band characters sort of fitting in those roles, but I think the Five Bad Band is stretching things. Issandrian is the leader of a conspiracy, but he is a good guy whose intent was to bring about political reform and was totally oblivious to the plan by the other members to assassinate the King. And the character Alan Klin is a Jerk Jock soldier, but he doesn't do any "brute" things in service of the conspiracy- he's really just a pretty face, which I think makes him a better fit for the Dark Chick role. The character listed as the Dark Chick is female, but she really isn't involved in the conspiracy other than being the wife of one of its members.

I wouldn't say that shoehorning in the ensembles will get there eventually. It's pretty much stalled since The Three Faces of Eve. Four-Man Band could use a rename since it sounds like a bad snowclone of Five-Man Band.

found this example for a Yu-Gi-Oh series, there is some explaination, but it seems a little scant. What do you think?

• Five-Man Band
  • The Hero: Don Zaloog, as he leads the Dark Scorpions.
  • The Lancer: Cliff because his title is "Trap Remover".
  • The Chick: Meanae, as she is the team's girl.
  • The Big Guy: Gorg because he is the largest of the Five Dark Scorpions.
  • The Smart Guy: Chick because he seems smart enough to rob places at a young age.

That example seems lacking, mainly in the context department.

• Five-Man Band
  • The Hero: Don Zaloog, as he leads the Dark Scorpions. (The Hero needs to be changed to The Leader, otherwise seems fine.)
  • The Lancer: Cliff because his title is "Trap Remover". (How does being a "trap remover" make him The Lancer? Doesn't make sense to me.)
  • The Chick: Meanae, as she is the team's girl. (Insufficient context. Being the Token Girl is not enough. Does she fit the character type or not?)
  • The Big Guy: Gorg because he is the largest of the Five Dark Scorpions. (Insufficient context. Being "large" in and of itself doesn't tell me enough. Needs details about the character's physical strength; that's the important part.)
  • The Smart Guy: Chick because he seems smart enough to rob places at a young age. (This one seems fine.)

edited 17th Sep '14 5:31:11 PM by MyTimingIsOff

Whacked a full of shoehorning example from Videogame.Gadget Trial and a no-context wrongroles from Characters.Super Mario Bros Mario And Friends.

Tried to salvage something from the former one (regarding contibution/dynamics of characters), could've messed up the lancer somewhat. There's 6 people, so five-man band doesn't fly regardless.

edited 30th Sep '14 12:29:35 AM by NemuruMaeNi

Four people and a robot in seven zero-context entries in wrong example indentation and only two of the roles that make up an FMB are mentioned in the process. Blasting this out of the LightNovel.Crusher Joe page now.

edited 30th Sep '14 6:31:33 AM by NemuruMaeNi

I've made unhyphenated versions of the Five-Man Band Anime pages:

• FiveManBand.Anime A To D
• FiveManBand.Anime E To H
• FiveManBand.Anime I To M
• FiveManBand.Anime N To R
• FiveManBand.Anime S To V
• FiveManBand.Anime W To Z

I'm waiting on the moderators to do something. I hollered from my own post, about altering the page to point to them and locking, but nothing is happening yet. I figured since they are open at the moment, we could go through and remove the worst of the shoehorning.

edited 1st Oct '14 5:02:22 AM by TheOneWhoTropes

Another random find at Characters.Kamen Rider Fourze Kamen Rider Club:

Fourteen names, nine entries (the heart is together with the chick, not instead this time ), zero context, deprecated Hero lead, in indentation. Cutting without remorse.

^^ I have a sandbox for a single page version of the Anime Five-Man Band. I was going to try and finish it up so you did not have to do the hyphen move but combing the wicks has been taking some time.

Here it is, BTW, if you want to look it over: Five Man Band Anime

edited 1st Oct '14 8:29:36 AM by rexpensive

I didn't know, sorry. I think we should remove them from hyphenated titles or put a mark next to them saying we're cleaning them up and they should stay where they are for now. The new page looks good, apart from two issues:

• The Hero should be The Leader on the ones that use The Hero.

• I'm not sure about the status of including the Sixth Ranger.

ETA: Actually, re-looking at that page I see a number of issues. Use of past instead of present tense (How To Write An Example)

Howls Moving Castle - Being a Fire Demon doesn't make you The Big Guy, having a high physical strength makes you The Big Guy. Not watched it in a while, can't remember the plot.

edited 1st Oct '14 8:43:15 AM by TheOneWhoTropes

^ Yeah, I think Mad was against that as well. If that is how other people feel about it I am not going to put up a fight, anyway.

If you are moving in examples from elsewhere, remember there are other rules other than the FMB ones. The Big Guy is about strength, and The Smart Guy intelligence. Putting someone down as The Big Guy because they are tall or even gigantic wouldn't make sense in say, Macross Frontier, where a gigantic alien race is allied with humanity, unless there was only one Zentraedi (the aliens) on the team and they were renowned for their strength.

There are massive problems with The Leader, the type labels were removed from the description, without changing them appropriately on the examples. Result? I don't know which of the four personality types to change the Haruhi Suzumiya example to, and this may need a thread all of its own, on the Short Term Projects thread.

edited 1st Oct '14 8:55:54 AM by TheOneWhoTropes

Yeah. I have basically been moving over everything that is not obviously wrong at first glance; there is still probably misuse on that list. Once I have combed over all the wicks I will probably go over what I pulled.

Second opinions would be welcome.

The number of replies nears eight hundred. And there's still talk about "high physical strength", "intelligence".

You don't get the metaphor of five-man band. The "band" word there is really from music ensembles. Music ensembles have the obvious product of their collective effort — the music. How do five people stop being just five people and become a band? By making contributions simultaneously to the one same effort — performing a music piece together, the activity that traditionally has each one of them take a single instrument and contribute to the music with that one instrument. Contribution. Contribution. Con-tri-bution. Show the contribution, not the skill. If a one given guy can play drums, bass, flute, triangle, maracas, has an astounding voice, but for this one album all he did was fumbling with keyboard — then that's the only one thing he can be credited as part of the team that made that album. All those The Leader, The Smart Guy, The Big Guy, The Lancer, The Chick — are intended to be contribution-to-the-plot-based tropes (but not the Sixth Ranger, he's defined differently). That is where the context should take its stand as well.

Continuing on, if Example Indentation disallows to group examples the way they have massively propagated thus far, why would the FMB page/subpages themselves be excused from this? There hasn't been a decision justifying this, as far as I know.

The unhyphenated pages of Anime and Manga look horrible. Tables, zero context and other basic rules violations leave some one to two example across them all.

edited 1st Oct '14 10:16:03 PM by NemuruMaeNi

^ Fighteer said the indentation was fine for the trope pages. I have been fixing it on works pages as I see it.

The format on the trope pages was allowed quite a while ago, because it makes sense there. It doesn't work on work articles, though.

As for the other point, yes it is critical to the trope that the five characters in question act as a team.

edited 2nd Oct '14 8:28:12 AM by Fighteer

The very head of my post says "remember there are other rules other than the FMB ones", i.e. it was in addition to having to work as a team, these members must fulfil these criteria, or they are shoehorned into the role. And I haven't been in the thread since the beginning, or if I was, I got sidetracked by the Administrivia.Wick Namespace Migration.

, : I expected something like that, but thank you for an actual confirmation. Now I'll know where to go from here.

edited 2nd Oct '14 11:31:20 PM by NemuruMaeNi