Five-Man Band cleanup

As stated in the OP, the ruling about The Chick having to be female is from Fast Eddie. It's not changing unless you convince him. That said, The Chick is an Always Female trope; a male equivalent would fall under The Heart.

@Tel: Could you write up the example for Pair of Foils and a Mediator for Big Bang Theory, then? I have no familiarity with the series beyond recognizing the name.

Added without discussion: Pokemon - During the Advance Seasons

The Leader	Ash
The Lancer	Pikachu	And also a Team Pet
The Big Guy	Brock	And a Rare Male Example Team Mom
The Chick	May
The Smart Guy	Max	And also a Tagalong Kid

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And from the FiveManBand.Comic Books discussion page:
The way the Founding Teen Titans are here is very arbitrary. Kid Flash was never known for Smartness, Wonder Girl as "The big Guy" is random and pointless when she's The Chick, no one really works as The Lancer. Speedy is considered part of the core Five if if he wasn't there originally (But neither was Wonder Girl is the very original founding story).

If there are no objections, I'll cut the example from the page within a few days.

edited 23rd Nov '12 12:46:49 PM by Nocturna

I don't think I've ever seen that yellow rat described as anything remotely like a lancer...

Check out my fanfiction!

If adding examples without discussion is a problem, I think we should just lock the subpages and force people to discuss the examples first, like with Complete Monster.

I find it utterly ridiculous that someone thought Pikachu is The Lancer.

We were trying to go the less drastic non-locking route first (leaving commented out notes at the tops of the pages), but I'm beginning to think that people entirely fail to read commented out notes. Either that or they (almost) all think they're above them.

I think that the biggest issue with the trope is the current formatting. All examples end up as Zero Context Examples because it's become accepted to list just the role and not how the characters fit this in relation to the other members of the group. I propose that we change the format some to force people into explanations:

• Alice And Bob Show:
  • Alice - The Heart - Alice always looks after everyone.
  • Bob - The Hero - Bob is one who is always leading the group.
  • Carl - The Smart Guy - Carl is a hacker and serves as tech support.
  • Don - The Big Guy - At 6'8", Don is the largest member of the group. While normally a Gentle Giant, he's dangerous when you threaten his friends.
  • Eve - The Lancer - Bob's second in command Eve is the one who makes sure that Bob's brash personality is kept in check and leads the b team when the group splits up.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Actually, as part of the cleanup, we're trying to change all the examples over to match the supertrope format (emphasizing the foil pairings), so:

• Alice And Bob Show
  • Bob and Eve: The Leader and The Lancer^note The trope is The Leader, not The Hero: Bob leads the group. Eve, as Bob's second-in-command, leads the b team when the group splits up. She's also the one who makes sure that Bob's brash personality is kept in check.
  • Carl and Don: The Smart Guy and The Big Guy: Carl is a hacker and serves as tech support, whereas Don is a 6'8" Gentle Giant who turns dangerous when you threaten his friends.
  • Alice: The Chick^note By word-of-Eddie, The Chick is the only possible role for the mediator in the Five-Man Band: She always looks after everyone.

This isn't set in stone, especially as the handful of example that got sorted and edited were lost with the sandbox wipe, so feel free to critique/discuss.

edited 23rd Nov '12 9:33:38 PM by Nocturna

I wanted to discuss the Zero Context Example issue a bit as well. Yeah, shima's idea is right.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Another example added without discussion:

Homestuck: The B2 session

The Leader	Jane Crocker
The Lancer	Dirk Strider
The Big Guy	Jake English
The Smart Guy	Lil' Hal
The Chick	Roxy Lalonde

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So you prefer shima's version? We can run with that, if others agree; it will make the supertrope and subtrope have different example formats, though.

It's not all just about foil pairs though. They have to all work as a group. Not just two pairs and a random chick. The descriptions need to show that.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I have to admit that I don't see how either format conveys that particularly, and I don't see that one format conveys it more than the other, either. If you can find a method that works (maybe require a brief explanation of how they work as a team, placed after the name of the show?), I'm certainly all ears.

Mandatory descriptions is the important part. I have no preference between the three-line version and the five-line version. The latter seems more susceptible to abuse, but the former seems harder to explain, so I really can't name a favorite.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

This post was thumped by the Eldritch Flyswatter of Horror

Both versions are better than what we have right now but I like Shima's version better. A rule requiring a justification of how the character fits their role will weed out misuse.

Okay, so shima's version seems to be slightly preferred, so we'll run with that one. I'll add it to the OP.

---

Added without discussion:

Paw Paw Bears

The Leader	Princess Paw
The Lancer	Brave Paw
The Smart Guy	Trembly Paw
The Big Guy	Mighty Paw
The Chick	Laughing Paw
Team Pet	Pa Pooch and the flying horses
Big Good	Wise Paw

---

Another example added without discussion, this time on Comic Books:

Secret Siz from Villains United

The Leader	Scandal
The Lancer	Deadshot
The Smart Guy	Catman
The Big Guy	Parademon
The Chick	Ragdoll
Sixth Ranger Traitor	Cheshire

edited 2nd Dec '12 2:09:20 PM by Nocturna

Added without discussion:

Children of Time

The Leader	The Tenth Doctor
The Lancer	Sherlock Holmes
The Big Guy	The TARDIS
The Smart Guy	Sally Sparrow
The Heart	Dr. Watson
Sixth Ranger	Beth Lestrade

Considering that The Smart Guy character is potholed to The Chick, I'm guessing this one's a shoehorn.

I agree. Also, when you have people like The Doctor and Sherlock Holmes in the same group you're not going to have a designated Smart Guy. Third, why is the TARDIS the Big Guy? Without context I have no idea.

I would like to nominate Drowtales as a candidate for inclusion on the Webcomics Five Man Band Page. This Webcomic in fact is unique as it actually has three separate Five Man Bands within the confines of the main archive (it gets more complex if you diverge into the sub archives).

But in the main archive the two five main bands are basically divided as such:

Chrys'tel's Five Man Band:

• The Leader: Chrys'tel Vel'Sharen, she is the typical Rich Bitch character who leads the popular clique at her school. She is literally a Princess, title and everything.
• The Lancer: Shinae Vel'Sharen, Chrys'tel's Protector Twin, basically a glorified slave that acts as a body double and body guard. She isn't very good at her job. She is also capable of a Mach 5 Scream.
• The Smart Guy: easily Naal'suul Val'Beldrobbaen, basically she is what happens when you open a gate to hell inside of a little girl who is smart enough to know what the consequences of the actions are.
• The Big Guy: Kiel'ndia Vel'Vloz'ress (though Naal'suul qualifies as well by the sole fact that she is immune to damage). Kiel is basically a ready made tank. She is also the only sane character in the entirety of that website (regardless of which incarnation you find her in). Which is saying something seeing as how she suffers from serious split personality disorder. She basically becomes the sole guardian and protector of perhaps the strongest demonic entity in the main archive TWICE. Thus setting her up to be perhaps the most influential character in the story if she really gave a damn about inter-clan politics.
• The Chick: despite the fact that all members of this five man band are female, the role of the chick goes to Kyo'nne Val'Illhar'dro. All you need to know about her is that her special attack is singing. And yes, it has saved the day at least a few times. Oh she is also capable of Kitchen Kung Fu apparently.
• Also associated with this group is the Sixth Ranger Traitor: Faen'arae Val'Sullisin'rune. Faen is a special case. She was befriended by Chrys'tel with the sole intention of making Faen tougher. Turns out its kind of hard to make an individual who can sense the emotional pain of everyone around her into a tough guy. Fortunately then along came Ariel Val'Sarghress who somehow mysteriously negated the emotional stress that Faen was feeling at the time. Didn't help that the majority of the students walking around their school were possessed by demons.

Unfortunately this five man band began being disolved prior to the time skip and is now composed solely of Shinae and Chrys'tel.

Ariel Val'Sarghress' first Five Man Squad: This group was assembled for the sole purpose of rescuing Faen'arae and as such no longer exists.

• The Leader: Ariel Val'Sarghress, daughter of the second best shapeshifter in existence. Uses her hair as a weapon. and she can enter an eldritch abomination mode and scare the hell out of humans. She was only 15 years old at this point and not very wise in the ways of the world up till then.
• The Lancer: Chiri'nide Val'Kyorl'solenurn, wise beyond her years. Chiri'nide is close to the same age as Ariel, yet somehow she has the wisdom and intellect of someone who is vastly older than her. Might have something to do with the fact that she is a precog. her special attack is pyrokinesis. Unfortunately she can't control that attack very well.
• The Smart Guy: Shan'naal Kyorl'solenurn, Again, vastly wiser than his years would let on. Chiri's right hand man, and potential love interest (also sadly a love interest for Kyo'nne). His special attack is an enchanted bow.
• The Big Guy: Rikshakar, a Half-Drow, Half-Dragon hybrid. Unfortunately due to her naivety, Ariel appeared in front of Rik in the form of a Half-Dragon (despite actually being a Drow herself), this caused Rik to decide to make her his mate. Thus he ultimately betrayed the group and ended up getting eaten to death by a Cthulu reject after being soundly beaten to a pulp by Ariel.
• The Chick: ironically, Kyo'nne Val'Illhar'dro, see above.
• Big Sister Mentor: Vaelia, the only main character thus far to actually not be an Elf in some way shape or form. Vaelia is a Halme (Drowtales lingo for Human). Thus she cannot use magic of any sort, she ages faster than the elves, and she is far more mature than the Elves. She is essentially the voice of reason in a group largely composed of immature children.
• Tag-along kid: Liriel is technically Ariel's slave, but Ariel doesn't want her. Liriel is a staunch drunk, totally useless, and completely incapable of doing anything other than complaining about the conditions which mainly involves a lack of beer. (later subverted when she transformed into the reincarnation of the 1,000 year old Empress of all Drowkind who retained all her memories and became the best Mentor a 15 year old elf could ever ask for).

Ariel's Second Five-Man Band:

• The Leader: Ironically it isn't Ariel XD it is in fact Sarnel Sarghress. Sarnel is the level head of the group. Unfortunately he is also the weakest link of the group as he promptly gets his ass handed to him less than 2 chapters after his initial post time skip introduction and is now waylaid in an infirmary, making Ariel acting squad captain.
• The Lancer: albeit reluctantly, Ariel Val'Sarghress, basically the premise of this five man squad, is that Ariel's adoptive mother, the ruler of the Sarghress clan wants Ariel to learn how to be a soldier from the ground up. So Ariel was placed at the lowest rank possible in a Military Unit, and is being forced to work her way up the chain of command. Unfortunately Sarnel, the actual squad captain, gets massive full body third degree burns shortly after the resumption of the story post time skip. Thus he is no longer capable of leading the squad. And because none of the other squad members want the job, Ariel gets elected.
• The Smart Guy: Shala Val'Sharen, she is an expert at sealing demonic energy, she is also a skilled combat medic. Normally I would put Sarnel in this role, but since he is technically the leader, I put Shala here.
• The Big Guy: Kau Val'Sharen, he is the groups Giant Mech Pilot... so... does that qualify?
• The Chick: Faen'area Val'Sullisin'rune, technically I don't know if she actually is part of the squad in any vital capacity. But she tags along and provides pain relief to fallen troops via her empathic abilities (ala Zan from Farscape). Unfortunately her empathic abilities more often pose a hindrance to the squad than an outright benefit as she has an unfortunate bad habit of going into Empathic Shock.
• The Mentor: Former Empress Diva'ratrika Val'Sharen (but she just wants to be called Diva). She has the memories of someone who has lived over 1,000 years. Do I really need to explain how this is useful for the role of a Mentor?
• Possible Sixth Ranger: Chrys'tel Vel'Sharen who is currently acting as a spy for Shala and Kau's mother Sillice, against her sisters (who are also ironically the daughters of Diva'ratrika). If she is discovered she will either have to escape with her life, or will end up dead at the hands of her family.

edited 7th Dec '12 11:20:11 AM by DalkonCledwin

Can you explain how the characters you're describing fit into the archetypes of the Five-Man Band? That's important in order to add to the page.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

you do realize that this webcomic has 41 chapters in the main archive alone. It also features intensive plot development for these characters. Explaining each character I just listed in a few short words is not going to explain them properly. I basically did the best I could given the amount of space that I had available.

Seriously using sub tropes to explain why characters fit into a super trope is actually a good way to describe these characters. Trying to explain it any more would require serious research on my part and would likely result in a 10+ page long essay.

edited 7th Dec '12 10:28:57 AM by DalkonCledwin

You didn't explain anything. You just gave the characters and their roles. You gave no explanation of how the characters fit those roles nor how they work together as a team. You don't need a ten page essay, but you can manage a sentence or two for each of those things.

edited 7th Dec '12 10:30:07 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I think you can write it much longer than that.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Ummmm, it's not necessary to write an essay. What I mean is a short description, like any other example. For instance:

• The Lancer: X is stoic, a loner and hard to get along with, in contrast to the upbeat hero.
• The Chick: Z keeps the group together with her cheerful tone and ability to bridge the gaps between them.
• The Smart Guy: F is a Gadgeteer Genius who makes the plans and possesses hreat intelligence but ultimately follows the hero.

Like that. It's pretty standard.

edited 7th Dec '12 10:34:13 AM by lu127

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

wow, seriously guys Drowtales is one of (if not "the") longest webcomic in the world at the moment. looking at just the archives that aren't the main archive there are approximately 4,815 pages of storyline on that website. The Main Archive by itself has 1809 pages of actual canonical storyline. Further complicating matters is that one of the sub story archives has information in it that complicates the explanation of these characters in a way that is difficult to explain to anyone without a subscription to that site. You are basically asking me to remember everything I have read on a website that vast about what is in essence a minority group of characters in what amounts to one of the greatest epic war comics in existence.

EDIT: I guess I can edit such descriptions as the last post suggests into my original post in this thread. Just don't expect it to do any real justice to the characters in that webcomic.

edited 7th Dec '12 10:52:52 AM by DalkonCledwin

You don't need all things that they have done to make an example. Just a few sentences.

edited 7th Dec '12 10:53:15 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman