Five-Man Band cleanup

@Tel: We're trying to structure this clean-up in much the same way as the Complete Monster thread, so yes, all examples need to be discussed here. That said, that example looks like it fits. I'd give it a bit more time to let others have a chance to comment. If/when you add it, please also add it to the sandbox page (see the OP) in the format from this post.

Gundam Wing doesn't work as they don't function as a team; more like 'five individuals with the same goal'. Hero is too much I Work Alone to be a leader and Quatre is hardly smarter than the others, a Five Mand Band can't have two big guys (That defeats the point of the trope), Relena never became one of the group officially and Milandro was never more than a Friendly Enemy.

They worked as a team towards the end of the series iirc, as well as in a mid-series episode. Though Quatre came off as more of a leader than Heero did (and I even think he did lead the others in one episode). I remember Duo being your textbook Lancer, Trowa's Gundam fit The Big Guy mold, but I'm not sure about the character himself (he was more The Stoic, so I guess he could've been a Genius Bruiser), and Heero was the closest thing they had to The Smart Guy.

As for Zechs, that entry may have been referring to his role in Endless Waltz where he was a good guy. But by the time of EW, the team had since disbanded, and one had even underwent a Face–Heel Turn.

I still plan to make a trope to cover the five-girl teams. I just haven't been able to settle on what form it would take or what the five roles should be.

My tentative idea is simply an all-girl Five-Man Band (same five roles, but all female) because there are already so many examples that fit that very well. But I’m not sure whether that's appropriate for a new trope or not. I just haven't come up with anything better yet.

Any thoughts, ideas or opinions?

I'm honestly not sure that that's sufficiently distinct from the supertrope (which is currently in YKTTW under the working title of "Pair of Foils and a Mediator") to be made separate. What distinction would an all-girl group have aside from the shared foils/foils/mediator structure?

I really don't see why gender has anything to do with it. To suggest that a team with a clear-cut Leader, Lancer, Smart Guy, Big Guy and "Chick" of which three or more are female isn't a Five-Man Band just seems like going over the top in pruning a trope which already needs a lot of pruning.

That said, this is long overdue. I'm pretty sure the only groups I've ever noticed genuinely fitting this trope were the Power Rangers and the Enclave Remnants in Fallout New Vegas, but you see it listed everywhere.

Apparently Power Rangers teams (well, most of them) can't count anymore due to having more than one girl.

Yes, they can. See this post.

Well, actually, it wouldn’t just be an all-female "Two Pairs of Foils and a Mediator" (or whatever we're calling it). The way I see it, each member of each of its subtropes must have a specific role or designation. That's why I suggested a Five-Man Band of girls (kind of like how Five Bad Band is a Five-Man Band of villains).

But if there can be two, why not three? Or four? I don't see what about the trope means that it specifically has to be majority-male (and please don't say "because it's a five-man band").

Oh. Well, at least it's an explanation.

edited 16th Nov '12 10:31:06 AM by johnnye

Because the trope originated in the time when fiction was dominated by male protagonists, so that's the "classic" formation. Or so sayeth Fast Eddie. As has been said many times in this thread, if you want the gender-based part of the definition changed, you have to convince Fast Eddie. Arguing about it here is pointless and circular, and thus a waste of time.

Example added without discussion:

Poker Night at the Inventory

Going by genders, definitely not a traditional FMB, but it may fit the supertrope.

edited 16th Nov '12 7:21:40 AM by Nocturna

They are not a team at all, given that the game is about them playing poker against each other.

Another example added without discussion, this time on the FMB Wrestling page:

The Kloiq (behind the scenes) (1995-1996)

EDIT: And another one:

Misfits: Season 4

EDITEDIT: And yet another one:

Capitol Critters

edited 17th Nov '12 4:58:34 PM by Nocturna

Well, I've started a YKTTW called Five Girl Band to cover any all-female examples. It probably still need work, but it's a start. If it works out, it'll be another step towards Five-Man Band's cleanup. Can anyone can think of any all-female examples that aren't on the list yet?

How is this different from "the Team Of Five supertrope BUT THEY'RE ALL FEMALE", exactly?

Or even Five-Man Band as a Gender-Inverted Trope?

A gender-inverted version of Five-Man Band would need to have at least one man filling the role of The Chick.

Plenty of tropes have a Distaff Counterpart.

It's a work in progress, I'll admit, but teams of five girls are common enough to deserve some kind of trope. Unless, of course, we manage to make Five-Man Band gender-neutral. And since that is probably never going to ever happen, this seems like the most logical thing to do.

Look, I don't know how I'm not getting this across: the two foils and mediator Team Of Five is a trope. The classic Five-Man Band is a subtrope, because it represents a specific codified/stereotypical take on that broader trope. A Team Of Five BUT ONLY GIRLS, without something more to distinguish it, isn't a real subtrope, just an arbitrarily narrower form of Team Of Five.

It's not an all-female version of Team Of Five. It's an all-female version of Five-Man Band. If Five Girl Band did not have specific roles for each member, then I'd be inclined to agree with you. But Five Girl Band would specifically be The Leader, The Lancer, The Smart Girl, The Big Girl and The Chick, so it could potentially qualify as a subtrope.

Here it is so far.

edited 20th Nov '12 10:19:15 PM by DouglasFir

Its not a subtrope unless there's something meaningful to distinguish it from the supertrope (two pairs of foils + mediator). "Everyone lacks external genitalia" is not a useful distinction.

All Girl Team is probably a trope. Five Girls With An Arbitrary Set Of Roles is almost certainly not.

(And as I mentioned before, it's not a distaff counterpart, because the distaff counterpart would have to have one man as The Chick.)

edited 21st Nov '12 3:13:36 AM by Xtifr

There's two issues there. Firstly you're questioning whether Five-Man Band is a trope, and secondly whether the gender of the individual members is relevant. Both have been decided by Eddie Fiat. It seems inconsistent to have a specific trope for one potential gender-arrangement of Leader Lancer Smart Guy Big Guy Heart, but not others.

Personally I think we should just make a "Gender Mixed Five Man Band" trope, and move any decent examples of FMB that fall down solely on gender lines to that page. It seems that the only reason for Eddie making such specific guidelines for FMB is that it's a preexisting phrase which he wants to keep its original meaning — surely having a different trope be less inflexible is still an option.

No, I'm not questioning whether Five-Man Band is a trope. I know it is. I've seen the shows. It may seem rather arbitrary, but it was a thing, for a while.

What I'm questioning is whether other arbitrary collections of character types/genders are a trope just because they happen occasionally, at random. We don't need a page for each combination/permutation. Only those that were significant enough to qualify as a trope.

If something's common enough to have a name outside of TV Tropes, like Five-Man Band, then it's not unreasonable to think it's actually a trope, but you haven't demonstrated any such thing for Group Like A Five Man Band But All Female.

Anyway, this discussion should probably move to the YKTTW. But I think you'll have better luck trying to create a more generic All Girl Team trope.

I have to agree with Xtifr that All Girl Team seems more likely to be a trope than Five Man Band But All Girls. A team could fall under both All Girl Team and Pair Of Foils And A Mediator.

Example added without discussion:

The Big Bang Theory

There's no way any of them are The Big Guy, and all the guys are played as The Smart Guy, Sheldon perhaps moreso. Leonard isn't really a leader so much as attempting to keep Sheldon under control. Shoehorning; not an example of a Five-Man Band. It does fit foil pairs and a mediator, though.

Making the chick female misses the point. The chick is about someone who adds some element of diversity the others do not. Being female is not really sufficient, nor is making a duplicate trope "but for women" acceptable. If people are misusing five man band, as in the supposed chick is not adding what something different from everyone else, then just delete the example.

It is like saying the dragon must be an actual dragon. It is depressingly narrow minded on a website that runs on a Tropes Are Flexible philosophy(that and not notability).