Real Life section maintenance (New Crowner 19 Feb 2024)

Jealous Parent still hasn't stabilized, now at 1.5:1 (15), but still doesn't clear the minimum vote ratio. One more day to be sure it won't make it to 2:1, or just call it for keeping RL examples? Added 21st Feb '17 at 02:46:06 PM

I'd say give it one more day.

It now has a 2.17:1 ratio.

edited 27th Feb '17 8:04:07 PM by MitchellProductions

So another day to see if it stabilizes, I guess, since 1.5->2.17 isn't exactly static.

And on another note, am I just in need of more sleep or do the RL examples in Afterlife Express read like shoehorning? Especially given the part about there being uncertainty if there actually is such a thing as ghosts or an afterlife...

The Real Life examples of Rope Bridge are mostly treating the trope as "they exist", when in actuality the trope required the bridge to break during a crucial moment. Should the trope bar these examples?

An idle question (this seems to be a good place to ask it, since the people following this thread are very familiar with the rule):

How do we deal with real-life things addressed in fiction? For example, would it be appropriate for an article to mention a movie or piece of literature that portrays a real-world president as a President Evil, or a real-world religion as a Religion of Evil? Currently, it looks like Religion of Evil is completely purged of any references to real-world religions even in fiction, whereas President Evil has a few references to fictional representations of Nixon (although it's the Futurama version, which is more clearly distinct from the "real" Nixon than eg. a historical novel would be.)

My feeling is that it has to be decided on a case-by-case basis according to the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment, but it might be worth clarifying the description. At the very least, including a fictional representation of a real-world thing on something that falls under this rule should require that it be 100% clear that the work is deliberately invoking the trope (otherwise it's just the judgment of editors, which is the same as putting it in the real-life section directly.)

For example, it's completely clear that Futurama is presenting Nixon as evil for laughs, whereas including Frost/Nixon, which unambiguously shows the historical Nixon, might be more of a problem... oh, hey, that page has Nixon listed as Affably Evil (the film's version of Nixon - but the film is directly based on real history). Anyway, it shows that it might be worth clarifying.

edited 28th Feb '17 9:31:21 PM by Aquillion

On Afterlife Express, the first seems like shoehorning, but I have no idea what it actually means (didn't click the link). The second seems like it should be in the Oral Tradition folder. The last one seems like it kind of fits as much as a real life example could fit, but it's probably shoehorning. It's related enough to the trope that I wouldn't mind keeping it, though.

I cut the folder on Rope Bridge. They were all generic "examples". Not a single bridge was specified.

Works are allowed to portray real people in various ways that we don't allow on tropes for the actual real people. I would say it falls on a case-by-case basis where it's actually a problem. It's important that the example writeup makes it clear it's about the work's presentation of the person, and that it's not aimed at describing the real person.

edited 1st Mar '17 2:33:59 AM by AnotherDuck

The general rule is that a fictional depiction of a real person or real event is still fictional, so it can be troped, even if the trope is NRLEP. For example, if president Trump appears as a character in a novel, that is a fictional character who just happens to be based on the real Donald Trump.

But the law of cautios editing judgement applies. And troping the fictional character should not be used as an excuse for troping the real person. And what Another Duck said.

edited 1st Mar '17 3:46:08 AM by GnomeTitan

For example: Trump has appeared on The Simpsons several times over its run. Those can be troped, including the show where he preceded Lisa to the presidency.

But troping him, or tying his current RL presidency to those examples, is don't do that.

I think Afterlife Express should be NRLEP, since it's part story-telling element, and part uncertainty if the afterlife exists.

Rope Bridge, I recommend scrub and observe. It happens again, we can see about NRLEP it.

Easily Forgiven was reported in ATT, but I haven't had a chance to look at it yet.

Edit: Looked at Easily Forgiven.

The trope definition says that it applies to characters, but some of the RL examples are applying it to whole groups of people -the US South, post-apartheid South African government, post-WWII Germany. (The two Mandela examples also need to be merged if they're kept.)

The Burt Pugagh doesn't seem to understand the concept of of domestic abuse. The complex psychological aspects also don't fit the trope, besides having potential ROCEJ issues.

The relationship between Richard the Lionheart and Prince John was far more complex in history then the example lets on. What I've read on the subject leads to the possible conclusion of 'forgiven out of political necessity' rather than Easily Forgiven.

Reagan's and the Pope's examples might qualify.

Not sure about Julius Caeser. The Alexander the Great one seems based on speculation.

At the very least, a clean and keep, with a possible move to a historical folder for some, is needed.

edited 1st Mar '17 9:07:37 PM by Candi

On Easily Forgiven, I did delete two examples from Real Life after I saw the ATT post about because they weren't good examples, even if we do decide to keep the section. One was Coco Chanel, (it listed her as an anti-Semite and Nazi collaborator vs her popularity as a fashion designer; I took that out because it didn't seem so much "forgiven" as "unknown or considered irrelevant by most people" Given the time period, far fewer people were likely to take a creator's political or philosophical leanings into account when deciding whether to buy their creations.). The other was Santa Ana not being legally prosecuted for the Goliad Massacre during the Texan War for Independence. In my judgement, "not legally prosecuted" is not the same as "forgiven." If that is agreeable as a standard, then the one about the Generals in the American Civil War would also be a bad example.

edited 1st Mar '17 9:38:45 PM by Madrugada

At this point I think it's safe to call Jealous Parent as NRLEP, as its ratio has continued to climb even after crossing the 2:1 line.

Added 21st Feb '17 at 02:46:06 PM, 2.33:1 (20).

Cuckold still has an RL section despite being both a sex trope and blatant gossip. Why is this the case?

Should Harsher in Hindsight, Hilarious in Hindsight, and Heartwarming in Hindsight have RL sections?

"Harsher" and "Hilarious" keep attracting ROCEJ-breaking RL examples on YMMV pages, particularly in regards to politicians. From what I've been looking at on YMMV pages (via the Trump and ROCEJ clean-up thread), I'm primarily noticing complaining about Trump, but I'm also finding complaining about Sarah Palin.

Subpages include HarsherInHindsight.Real Life and HilariousInHindsight.Other. Heartwarming in Hindsight seems fine to me, but I bring it up since it's technically related to the other two.

Added Harsher and Hilarious. Holding back on Heartwarming for now since, as you said, there aren't problems there as of yet.

Cuckold still has a RL section because no one's brought it up before, originally or when it ran through TRS.

Yipe, general examples ahoy!

I say make it NRLEP on the basis of being a sex trope.

edited 4th Mar '17 12:25:48 AM by Candi

Do not put multiple tropes on the same crowner entry. If I find that one should absolutely ban real life examples and the other is only questionable, I will vote it down.

Genre Turning Point has a whole bunch of RL turning points that have nothing to do with genres. The whole thing looks to me like a huge pile of shoehorns.

I'm a bit torn on this one, so I haven't adding it to the crowner. It might be acceptable to list real-world events which actually had an affect on genres of fiction. But there don't seem to be any of those at the moment. And leaving it open for RL examples might just cause more shoehorning. So I'm looking for a second opinion.

If there's a real life event that changes a genre, it should be listed as an example for that genre, wherever that fits. It's not a real life example. I don't think there are legitimate real life examples for Genre Turning Point, as Real Life doesn't have genres.

What Duck said.

Wouldn't "RL events affecting the makeup of fiction" go under Discredited Trope or Forgotten Trope anyway? Those seem like better fits than Genre Turning Point.

No, because those apply to individual tropes, not a genre as a whole, and because those are about the condition of the trope, not what might have caused it to fall into that condition. A Real Life occurrence that contributed to a trope becoming discredited could be mentioned on the trope page, or on the entry for that trope on the Discredited Trope page, but it's not itself as an example of a Discredited Trope.