Duplicate Trope: Crouching Moron Hidden Badass Vs Lets Get Dangerous

I'm seeing either descriptive equivocation or definitional creep in Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass and Let's Get Dangerous! thats making it difficult for me to differentiate any subtle trope distinction between the two, and the Canonical List Of Subtle Trope Distinctions only confused me further.

Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass begs not to be confused with Let's Get Dangerous!, but undermines itself:

"At first glance, he's The Fool. She's The Ditz. And no, it's not Obfuscating Stupidity — they're really like that... If intentional, then it might be a case of Obfuscating Stupidity"

Which is it then?

"Basically, the individual has access to superpowers of some sort... and they either don't know they have the power, or don't know how to control it."

Okay, there's a thing, so Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass would be in effect an explicitly "idiot is suddenly superpowered" subtrope of Let's Get Dangerous!?

"Common triggers include a friend or loved one in danger (see Mama Bear and Papa Wolf), a Million to One Chance scenario, or just a "worthy cause." Sometimes, just getting 'em really, really pissed off will do the trick — although their easy-going personalities make that a rare occurrence."

But this makes it more Obfuscating Stupidity again. I understand if including both the oblivious and the willful concealment of power is part of the trope, but the text is written ambivalently.

"The main point, however, is not the powers, but the radical change in personality that comes with them."

That's confusing me again. All Hidden Badass tropes tend to hit that mark.

Comparing Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass's

Laconic: An idiot becomes more competent when using their superpowers.

Playing With: A seemingly dumb or incompetent character is revealed to actually be very strong or skilled.

Subtle Trope Distinction: Someone who really is stupid/incapable, until the right button is pushed and they start kicking all kinds of ass.

Only the Laconic specifies powers. The Playing With implies Obfuscating Stupidity while the other two seem to require sincere stupidity.

Now moving on to Let's Get Dangerous!, its Laconic: A character typically not fit for fighting pushes the "Kick Ass" button, sounds a lot like Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass's Playing With and Subtle Trope Distinction listing.

Furthermore, Let's Get Dangerous! specifies itself as applying to supporting characters and namedrops Plucky Comic Relief for an ideal perpetrator, but so does Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass.

This is further muddled by the fact that Let's Get Dangerous! as Trope Namer was used by a main protagonist Darkwing Duck, and I see quite a few lead characters, sometimes titular ones, in the examples.

Let's Get Dangerous!' Subtle Trope Distinction is "When someone who has the reputation of being a badass but doesn't normally act that way finally shows off why he's got the reputation." but the actual trope makes no real note of prior reputation, and even runs along the same "surprise! hidden superpower nobody knew about!" theme Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass does.

I see, in Western Animation alone, some instances of overlap: Listed in both Popeye, Tex Avery's Droopy Dog, Justice League Unlimited's the Flash, Teen Titans' Beast Boy, Darkwing Duck, Jonathan Long from American Dragon Jake Long, Fluttershy of My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Scooby Doo of Scooby Doo Mystery Incorporated, Iroh of Avatar The Last Airbender, Ron of Kim Possible.

So what is the real difference between these tropes?

edited 22nd Feb '12 8:41:00 PM by Aiguille

CMHB: Character is normally an idiot, suddenly becomes badass (distinct change in personality)

LGD: Character becomes more competent under pressure (no change in personality)

The name, page quote, and page image for Let's Get Dangerous! all reference the same thing (they even all have the words "let's get dangerous"). That is obfuscating, not clarifying.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.

I always thought Let's Get Dangerous! was mainly about supporting cast members, not the main ones. Though that's probably due to how we normally see the main characters actually using their powers. The trope is where someone basically has an Informed Ability that's suddenly shown. There has to be some hints as to their actual strength. Being a combat teacher who's never in the main action counts. This is a good trope.

I've never really liked those Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon snowclones. They're mostly just unclear. Anyway, this is about someone who's normally incapable of holding their own, and you have no reason to expect it either.

There is overlap, but only through character development. They shouldn't be both at once.

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.

I always thought Let's Get Dangerous was where a character would basically turn into a fighting machine/Blood Knight, whether they were average or established to be a Badass beforehand.

Case: Gogo Ubari from Kill Bill. You're told she's pretty dang crazy, but you never see it until the actual fight between her and The Bride. There's slow walking, and talking, and it's pretty boring... then BAM LETSGETDANGEROUS BITCH.

Come sail your ships around me, and burn your bridges down.

Let's get dangerous is not just about support characters, the Trope Namer was a main character. The description just used seemingly incompetent supports as a potential example. Crouching Moron hidden bad ass is when a seemingly harmless idiot has access to great superpowers. Let's get dangerous is when goofs off turn out to be very good at what they do.

One problem is you think that the two tropes never overlap, all the page is saying that they are not interchangeable, every case of one will not be a case of the other. The biggest difference is that moron to bad ass requires superpowers, lets get dangerous does not. Duplicate they are not, but crouching moron needs a new name change, this site always uses "bad ass" like everyone will automatically understand.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

The main difference I see is that Let's Get Dangerous! has a line of dialog as a title, whereas Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass is just a generally bad title. These are the same trope; Let's Get Dangerous! supposedly does not involve a personality change or powers, but simply getting dangerous is a personality change for this character type, and fighting skill is a power. So...

There doesn't need to be a personality change from lazying around Laharl's castle while he's out handling his own, and then go out and save him when he actually needs it. Or any similar situation.

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.

They strike me as different, just with poorly written descriptions.

Fight smart, not fair.

Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass is a normally stupid/incompetent character who turns into a badass when their Berserk Button is pressed.

Let's Get Dangerous! is a normally goofy/ridiculous character who can be badass when they feel like it.

Both have terrible, terrible Example as a Thesis descriptions as currently written.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Kaiser Mazoku: Your description doesn't really address Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass's emphasis (two paragraphs worth) on superpowers, that also made it into the laconic, and I'd argue that the performative nature of badassery (its always competent) would constitute a personality change in either case.

Feather 7603: If Let's Get Dangerous! is really supporting characters exclusively, the name and examples need a looking at, because Darkwing Duck, the Trope namer, was quirky, narcissistic, foolish, comedic, and a heroic main protagonist, who spoke the phrase when he got down to the brass tacks of fighting Supervillains instead of screwing up royally or complaining about his lack of media exposure. (His quirk was he was a pre-internet fame-whore) Popeye and Droopy Dog, also leads, show up in the examples too, probably because the name puts people in mind of an eccentric lead.

Cider: Look at Let's Get Dangerous!' description: "A moment in the story when all the quirky, eccentric supporting cast stop being quirky and eccentric and start demonstrating why you should respect your elders" It confines itself to them, but says the trope namer is "Darkwing Duck a bumbling hero." The phrase "bumbling hero" potholes to, you guessed it, Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass. Darkwing has no superpowers, (he's a Coat, Hat, Mask) but appears as an example there, as well as on Let's Get Dangerous!, further muddying the waters on whether Crouching requires superpowers or not. (As does the Scooby Doo example that occurs on both)

Native Jovian Here's my issue, "stupid/incompetent" and "goofy/ridiculous" go hand-in-hand because each creates the impression of the other. It's an archetypical trope, The Fool.

edited 23rd Feb '12 5:39:34 PM by Aiguille

Uh no, fighting skill is not a power, fighting skill is skill.

That's crouching moron hidden bad ass, Let's get dangerous is just the goofy guy showing that they have skill, it is not about triggering some hidden super power. Let's Get Dangerous! has more in common with Beware the Silly Ones than crouching moron hidden badass, the only reason people are even making the mistake is because crouching moron hidden badass is a non indicative title, most of the "badass" index are pages with titles that really don't tell you anything.

Change crouching moron hidden badass to Superpowers Hidden In An Idiot. Contrast, say, Darkwing Duck, the trope namer of lets get dangerous. He has no superpowers, he's a bumbling goof...who happens to be pretty good at subduing criminals. Taichi and Zero from Digimon V Tamer 01, two dancing, carefree goofs who happen to be a tactical math wiz and a highly trained fighter with a high pain tolerance.

The crouching moron trope is more like, Goku Jr from the Dragon Ball GT movie, a wimpy kid who unbeknown to him, and everyone else, had the power to turn Super Saiyan. He didn't even remember anything he did while using his powers and his personality while using them was much different.

edited 23rd Feb '12 5:48:26 PM by Cider

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

Cider: I do suspect that Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass should be a trope about an oblivious fool's Berserk Button triggered, hidden superpowers. But that being said, this would mean a page overhaul. Look at the page quote. Danny Phantom's Jack Fenton is a nonpowered Badass Normal Genius Ditz. (And an idiot.) Also, superpowered fools with no "hidden power" aspect are present: The Flash and Beast Boy. Dunno why Droopy and Scooby are there.

In such a case, Let's Get Dangerous! should expand its description to protagonists, as that's how its being used....but now I look at Beware the Silly Ones and I wonder...how similar is that to Let's Get Dangerous!?

That's the description. The examples are the problem, them and the trope name. Let's get dangerous is the one that needs a tweaked description.

Anyway, Beware the Silly Ones is mostly about dangerous villains being overlooked, though I'm not sure that's enough of a distinction from Lets Get Dangerous myself. My point was if you wanted to find a duplicate trope that's what you should have been looking at.

edited 23rd Feb '12 6:26:01 PM by Cider

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

What's the issue? The distinction between the two tropes isn't stupid/incompetent vs goofy/ridiculous, it's "can be badass when they decide to be" (Let's Get Dangerous!) vs "become badass in reaction to having their Berserk Button pressed" (Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass).

Superpowers or lack thereof don't really factor into it. That part of the Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass's description should really be removed.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

No, Superpowers are important, as the description mentions Power Incontinence might be a cause, "berserk button" need not be the trigger. I really think the description is fine, I think the problem in Crouching Moron is the examples(including the page quote), and the name(which should be changed).

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

Outside of D&D and Champions message boards, fighting skill is a type of power. In fact, it's a power commonly cited in the examples on the page in question.

edited 23rd Feb '12 6:43:53 PM by pawsplay

Let's look at the very beginning of the description.

Emphasis mine. Berserk Button required, superpowers not.

edited 23rd Feb '12 6:50:35 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

If you're basing an entire page off the opening line you're doing it wrong, those words are there for a reason, if you want the short version, read the laconic.

next paragraph-block

Laconic

Mass Misuse is generally a special effort's issue, the description is fine, all repair shop should really be concerned with in this case is the name.

edited 23rd Feb '12 7:04:44 PM by Cider

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

Cider: Again, I lean towards your school of thought, re: Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass but its not just the examples that confuse the matter. While the opening lines actually exclude the possiblity of Obfuscating Stupidity, a latter paragraph brings it right back in:

This reintroduced implication of deliberation and intentionality really, really screws with the "Oblivious fool has superpowers unawares through Power Incontinence or a Berserk Button" definition, and is almost certainly aiding in the conflation with Let's Get Dangerous!.

Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass is all over the place, and should probably be narrowed, whereas Let's Get Dangerous! might be better off expanded.

Native Jovian: If I might paraphrase your position: Does it run like this?

Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass: The Fool's Berserk Button gets pressed and he's revealed as a Badass

Let's Get Dangerous!: The Fool is revealed as a Badass.

If I haven't over-reduced your argument, I'm back to wondering if Crouching should be a subtrope to Dangerous's supertrope in any circumstance.

pawsplay: And, this is just hurting my head more, because I understand your point. Heck, Crouching's name even primes us to consider normal fighting a superpower. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon's Magical Realism makes normal fighting into a superpower, and the kung-fu associations of that wuxia film are carried though to the trope name.

All I've figured out for certain is that both tropes probably need a rename.

edited 23rd Feb '12 8:18:53 PM by Aiguille

My $0.02:

Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass is a character who is usually ditzy but has a Superpowered Badass Side that sometimes manifests. They may switch back and forth repeatedly. (The oldest Internet Archive cache of the page, from Oct 2007, has almost the same description as now.)

Let's Get Dangerous! is a plot development, as the description says: "A moment in the story when all the quirky, eccentric supporting cast stop being quirky and eccentric and start demonstrating why you should respect your elders."

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

I'd rename Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass to Atomic Ditz Bomb or something like that, and let the powers be skill-based, metaphorical or otherwise, as long as they fit the trope of becoming an exploding badass.

Let's Get Dangerous! needs to be broadened. I think it can keep the name, as long as it covers all quirky characters. It's probably not prone to dialog-title abuse. I'm thinking of the final invasion of Casanova's mansion in Mystery Men as an archetype of this trope.

lebrel: So for you, Crouching is The Fool with a hidden Superpowered Alter Id/Super-Powered Alter Ego/Super Mode?

The definition of Let's Get Dangerous!, as written in-page, gives me pause, however.

This actually reads like Misfit Mobilization Moment (Ragtag Bunch of Misfits transform into Badass Crew) with a presumption that all the Rag Tag Bunch Of Misfits are in the Badass Grandpa age demo.

pawsplay: I kinda like Atomic Ditz Bomb. Is this moment in Mystery Men a Misfit Mobilization Moment?

EDIT: Works page says yes, indeed, the charge on the mansion falls under Misfit Mobilization Moment.

edited 23rd Feb '12 9:33:53 PM by Aiguille

Misfit Mobilization Moment it is... but Mister Furious pulls a Let's Get Dangerous! at the end versus Casanova. So... Let's Get Dangerous! could be the singular, and Misfit Mobilization Moment the plural.

Laconics should, as a rule, never be used when discussing trope definitions. Over 95% of them are dead wrong. (We did a check on this a while back.) Thus if it's the laconic definition, then most likely it has nothing to do with the trope at all.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick