Alright, so in TRS Badass Gay came up for discussion and it was agreed that there appears to big problem with the Badass X tropes in general, which needs to be sorted out until something can be ruled on for Badass Gay.
Here's a courtesy link: TRS page
. And Badass page with its subtropes. You can also visit the sandbox page here.
Noted Problems include:
- Tropes are just listings of characters people thing are badass who happen to have a certain trait. (The Badass + Trait Problem)
- Badass X as a naming scheme is actually very vague and doesn't give a lot of insight into what the character trope actually is, assuming it is a trope.
- Badass X as a naming scheme proliferates the use of Badass + Trait 'tropes'.
Suggested things to do include:
- Make it a requirement that a badass character trope means a character is "badass because of a trait", or "badass in spite of a trait".
- Renaming away from the Badass X naming scheme as much as possible.
- Cut, redefine or re-purpose things that are just Badass + trait.
There are also a lot of tropes that seem to be valid character-types, but have the naming scheme 'Badass X', when there's more to the trope than that. There are also a lot of prop or event or whatever tropes that need to be gone through as well.
Edited by Berrenta on May 15th 2020 at 7:39:14 AM
Just a ‘granny be dangerous in other ways, like martial arts, magic, or be a leader of a dangerous gang.’ Isnt a trope in of itself, it would be elements of the other tropes I listed like a genderflipped The Patriarch or Old Master. Like say Cologne in Ranma One Half the undefeated ancient grandmistress of Chinese martial arts, The Matriarch of her Chinese Amazon family, and an Old Master to most of the cast.
The big thing for the elder trope all they need to do is look or assumed enfeebled and then try to fight back. The effectiveness or not is really variable, the examples themselves are really all over the place.
edited 2nd Dec '17 5:57:38 AM by Memers
I actually agree that limiting Never Mess with Granny to "looking weak, but actually strong" examples would be a good move. I disagree with merging the rest with When Elders Attack.
I'm also confused by you keep mentioning the variability of effectiveness? The effectiveness of what?
Right in the trope description
The only difference between your Never Mess with Granny idea and When Elders Attack is literally choice of weapon and one is always female.
It’s essentially the same trope.
edited 2nd Dec '17 8:14:17 AM by Memers
Never Mess with Granny (probably can be expanded to Never Mess With Elders):
- An old person looks weak, but revealed to be actually strong
- Always effective
- Can use whatever means to kick ass
- An old people use stereotypical old people weapon
- Can be either effective of ineffective
- Uses stereotypical old people weapons
A major part of Never Mess with Granny is that the granny kicks ass, but it's optional in When Elders Attack. When Elders Attack is a (usually) comical trope focusing on the "old people do old people things" aspect. Never Mess with Granny can be either taken seriously or comedically, focusing on the difference between appearance and actual aspect of the elderly people.
A granny annoying a guy by whacking him with her umbrella is When Elders Attack. A weak-looking granny roasting a guy with a flamethrower is Never Mess with Granny. A weak-looking granny beating the tar out of a guy with her umbrella is both.
Keep those two separate. Having a few overlappable examples doesn't make them the actual same trope. They're clearly different.
I dont like Can Use Whatever Means and Is Effective - that devolves into "is badass" very fast
I have to side with True Shadow 1 on this one. When Elders Attack strikes me as a comedy trope. It shouldn't be merged with something that is meant to signify badassery or whatever.
The only thing I can see working is like Frail Facade or something. That the old person in question intentionally acts weak (feigning being senile, or walking slowly with a cane even though they don't need one) but then drops the facade and reveals that they've been badass all along. "Looks weak but is actually revealed to be strong when it's actually invoked" Like a fake out on the part of the oldperson, or a Willfully Weak situation.
Either way, that's getting into new trope territory that would have to go to the TLP. The existing Badass Grandpa wicks should be removed and added to the tropes under memer's earlier list.
Just about everything is covered somewhere.
edited 4th Dec '17 7:27:13 PM by acrobox
The Unknown Unknown
Right.
So, shall we begin dewicking?
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Go for it. Remember to add the appropriate tropes to the List of Badass Tropes.
OH MY GOD; MY PARENTS ARE GARDENIIIIINNNNGGGGG!!!!!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That should go as well or rebranded as combatant tropes or something.
That page is just a conglomerate of all the problems here and most of those tropes need to go.
Also for the next target I would bring up Badass Pacifist which we have brought up before.
edited 5th Dec '17 12:10:25 PM by Memers
The Unknown Unknown
Oh, God, Badass Pacifist. *gag*
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
To quote my post on page 87
The trope is about just plain 'awesome moments of pacifism' and needs a rename at minimum. IMO we need to divide it into 3 tropes
- Effective Pacifism, basically awesome moments of pacifism where it works often in a spectacular way.
- Pacifistic Combatant, a person who participates in combat but they do not actually injure, kill or even throw a punch. They may use Deadly Dodging to get enemies to injure themselves or just be really fast to achieve a goal without fighting while the others are fighting to stop them.
- Pacifist Martyr, took pacifism to their grave to prove a point.
The rest would fit in the rest Actual Pacifist, Martial Pacifist, and Technical Pacifist, Obstructionist Pacifist, Pacifism Backfire, Reckless Pacifist, in a Pacifism Index.
edited 5th Dec '17 12:37:30 PM by Memers
The Unknown Unknown
I swear Pacifistic Combatant sounds like a trope we already have...
In any case, I agree with your proposal, Memers. Badass Pacifist is like Badass Grandpa in hindsight, we have more than enough legitimate existing tropes.
Speaking of Badass Grandpa, dewicking begins now?
edited 5th Dec '17 12:46:59 PM by erazor0707
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
yeah one thing at a time, before we start on Pacifist let's finish Grandpa. The problem with clean up efforts is that a decision is made and thn no one actually does anything. Let's get back to dewick updates.
Badass Grandpa: 5695; 264 of which are Badass Grandma. A lot more work to do than even Princess had on it.
edited 5th Dec '17 7:14:39 PM by acrobox
The Unknown Unknown
Not surprised. Badass Grandpa is one of the more popular badass tropes.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
We can discuss it while the wicks are being deleted.
Are we just completely deleting examples or are there any tropes that examples should be moved to?
Likely they would fit into
- Old Soldier
- Perilous Old Fool
- Cool Old Guy
- Old Master
- Old Retainer
- Old Superhero
- The Patriarch
- When Elders Attack
- Retired Badass ( also on the list of things that should be renamed IMO, to something like Retired But Still Got It)
- Never Mess with Granny (also needs a rename and rework.)
If not then they should be ditched altogether IMO. However its highly likely that actual wicks in character pages and such will have those linked as well.
The Unknown Unknown
And Older Is Better.
If an example doesn't fit any of those, cut.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
and Older and Wiser, or human examples of Stronger with Age in rare cases. I also started this TLP if anyone wants to help flesh this out for Frail Facade: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=dzilykpq13pvgyyashq0d18b#comment-section
edited 6th Dec '17 7:38:35 PM by acrobox
would that be a Super-Trope to Never Mess with Granny and Old Retainer, Cute But Psycho, etc
The Unknown Unknown
I'd also say it's a Super-Trope to Pretty Princess Powerhouse and Badass Adorable.
I don't think merging those two will work. From what I understand, When Elders Attack is when elderly people physically attack people with elderly people weapons (purses, canes, umbrellas, etc), emphasis on "physical" and "elderly people weapons". Never Mess with Granny can have the granny be dangerous in other ways, like martial arts, magic, or be a leader of a dangerous gang. There are overlaps between the two, yes, but they're not the same.
edited 2nd Dec '17 5:20:17 AM by TrueShadow1