Rename proposed: Inspector Javert

Spun off from this thread, where there appears to be support for renaming this to Inspector Templar.

Bad name. Templars have nothing at all to do with the trope. If we are going to remove a trope namer that is an actual example of the trope, we should not replace it with a trope namer that is completly irrelevent to the trope.

Peripheral issue: Does this article require four page quotes?

^^ Good point, and well made. Inspector Templar is a rather tenuous allusion to the existing Knight Templar trope name, which is not itself self-explanatory.

Nevertheless, I think a rename might still be a good idea, as character named tropes are problematic; the character Inspector Javert is hardly one-dimensional, so the specific trope to which the title refers is not clear.

^ Certainly not.

edited 3rd Jan '12 12:16:25 PM by BobbyG

I like Inspector Templar or some variant of it, personally, and I don't recall any suitable alternatives being proposed. That said, I'm not opposed to them. Suggestions? I have nothing.

Unjust Inspector - represents the law, but is chasing someone who has no debt to society, but will force them to pay anyway.

^I don't like that, since they're generally legitimately just wrong.

Mistaken Inspector?

They are unjustly chasing an innocent (either Wrongly Accused or already paid their debt). If they knew their quarry was innocent, they'd be a jerk.

I also want to propose a description revision based on discussion about the definition in the prior thread, with the aim of making it more distinct from its related tropes.

edited 3rd Jan '12 3:47:06 PM by Elle

Reposting from the other thread, for possible renames for 4 of the tropes. I read through them and it seemed to correspond well, but again, the problem with some was that they were more focused on the character than the trope itself.

• Lawful Ally Inspector: The Lestrade
• Personal Ally Inspector: Commissioner Gordon
• Lawful Enemy Inspector: The Zenigata
• Personal Enemy Inspector: Inspector Javert

Zenigata hunts the protagonist because it's the law, not because it's personal. If there were other criminals, he'd hunt them too. If the protagonist is aiding the law, he'd let him go. Compared to say: Lestrade (protagonist is always helping the law, the inspector works with them as professionals), Gordon (Batman-type protagonist is often a criminal vigilante, but that doesn't stop the friendship, and actually may come before the inspector's working for the law) or Javert (It's Personal before all else, so the inspector may seek even extra-judicial options to stop or oppose the protagonist).

I like that description, but make sure you are very careful about checking the description of each of the tropes you are linking to be certain you are using them correctly.

I like it as well; I had just re-read the current description and found it to overlap too much with Sympathetic Inspector Antagonist. Since I had re-written that description, I also edited the Compare and Contrast paragraph of the Inspector Javert. You may want to read that.

Thanks for that. I still like the theme naming you've come up with.

edited 3rd Jan '12 1:46:58 PM by crazysamaritan

Odd, that the first post of that thread refers to Inspector Javert as an "incredibly iconic example" as opposed to Zenigata. Is the Trope Namer "iconic"? I think so, but there is no way to establish that it unless the name has already entered the English lexicon of its own accord. If you haven't heard of Inspector Javert, I have no right to tell you "Go read Les Miserables". But it's not a bad name because individual people haven't heard of it. It's probably not in everyday use, but any character who hews to this trope will inevitably be compared to the character himself if subject to serious examination.

I just want to remind people, we don't rename character-named tropes because they're character-named tropes. We rename them because they're not effective names, same as why we rename anything else. We want trope names to be 1. understandable, and 2. usable. A clunky, unwieldy name is no better than a character name. The longer a character name has been used on TV Tropes, the more chance that it's caught on among the people who care about trope terminology, and the more confusion that is caused by renaming.

I said as much in that thread: if we renamed "Inspector Zenigata", someone would insist on renaming other tropes with similar names and functions. This rename discussion came up because we renamed another trope, not because there's anything established to be wrong with this one. Offhand, the wicks look okay, and it's in use in inbounds from various sites, for 422 referrals this year. Can we not jump the gun on this?

There is a tertiary reason: the desire to preserve Theme Naming in the trope family. If it's not doable, so be it, but for many it would be preferable. In the other thread it looked like there was general agreement to do the whole family, but we need to decide whether that's sufficient consensus for action or not.

One objective problem with the name is that it does lend itself to a narrower interpretation ("characters who are like Javert in personality") than the definition actually gives (and some of the page examples seem to point to that). Keeping in mind Aux's criticisim of Inspector Templar as a name...yeah, not all of them are actually Knight Templar characters, which Javert himself was. (This is a bit of capitulation on my part...I wanted to keep all of the Inspector character trope names.)

edited 3rd Jan '12 2:21:41 PM by Elle

On the trope page (which notably lacks an actual Les Mis entry), it mentions that the adapted works tend to Flanderize the character into a jerkass inspector. Thus, the most common version of the Inspector Javert that people would be familiar with is the wrong character type. Until the previous thread, I thought it was also Inspector Jerkass, instead of Inspector Mistaken.

Note why I wanted to name them all one consistent theme based on current and most prevalent definition instead of "carbon copy of the trope namer".

I believe in the last thread I proposed something like Overzealous Inspector for Inspector Javert.

Unjust Inspector Antagonist crossed my mind. I think any name we use should have the antagonist part to pair it with Sympathetic Inspector Antagonist and to make it distinct from the non-antagonists ("mistaken" alone could describe Inspector Lestrade very often - often the Sherlock Holmes plots would focus on Scotland Yard being sure it was one man and Holmes proving them wrong.)

PS: I'd like to debate *which* quotes are actually the best for the page (I can quote Les Mis songs by heart), but stop me if that will get in the way right now.

edited 3rd Jan '12 5:15:57 PM by Elle

Misled Inspector Antagonist or Mistaken Inspector Antagonist?

edited 3rd Jan '12 5:16:23 PM by Firebert

Than Overzealous Inspector Antagonist. I though the point of Javert was that he was a Well-Intentioned Extremist who would go so far as break the law to catch you and was downright villainous despite being on the side of the law.

edited 3rd Jan '12 5:19:25 PM by NoirGrimoir

Grumble grumble suggested a set of four coordinated, clear trope names, grumble grumble...

In all honesty, your names were ridiculously opaque and not even entirely correct.

edited 3rd Jan '12 5:22:47 PM by NoirGrimoir

Well-Intentioned Extremist, yes. Villian/Antagonist in spite of being on the side of the law, yes. Willingness to break it to get the quarry, optional - even the musical's Javert never crossed that line. Other Javerts have.

Willingness to gloss over or ignore the quarry's innocence, good behavior, acts of heroisim and/or redemption, or the severity/evil-or-not status of their actual crimes is much more central.

Edit: I'm gonna try fishing the most representitive quotes I can from the musical.

The entirety of Stars (Javert's Image Song if this were an anime) but mostly:

And from his Villianous Breakdown:

edited 3rd Jan '12 5:50:23 PM by Elle

The page seems to emphasize that the point is his quarry is innocent. Is that the defining part of the trope or is it his zealot-like dedication? If it's the former than I think we could/should actually split off the latter.

edited 3rd Jan '12 5:40:15 PM by NoirGrimoir

Not necessary innocent. They may actually be guilty of breaking a law. The point is that the quarry is basically a descent person or even heroic, but the Inspector Javert is honestly convinced that the quarry is a evil and must be punished to the fullest extent of the law.