Rename: Has Japanese Word in Title: Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere

Actually Toph wouldn't fit under either. She's not a Tsundere, because she doesn't have a distinctly mean or Ice-Queen side, actually. She can be stern and harsh at times but that's not the same thing. Neither does she fit any of the physical requirements apart from being small. As for the other, she's not dominating, commanding and tyrannical. She tells Aang what to do sometimes but that's when she's teaching him earth bender, and those times aren't actually a big part of her character. She just happens to be an especially small and young Ladette who acts older than her age.

So far, this trope is a Japanese only trope about characters in Anime, Manga and especially Japanese Light Novels and I feel like it should stay that way. If and when a case ever appears in media outside of that, then it can be revisited, but I don't think the trope should be expanded based on a very weak hypothetical, especially when those cases which share certain traits from any media will now fit into a supertrope being created.

edited 29th Jul '11 3:21:45 PM by NoirGrimoir

One question - are we gonna be able to get the page back in the first place to rename?

There's a draft of it sitting in the YKTTW. It's safe enough there for the meantime.

Tiny Tyranical Tsundere is far, far more clear of a title than "Shana Expy", and considering that this is an entirely Japanese media specific trope, and that even if you don't know what a tsundere is off the top of your head, its still better than not even knowing who "Shana" is.

Also, while Shana may be one of the earliest examples (a position I'm not going to make a firm statement on, I really haven't looked into it that much), she's a bad choice to name a trope after, since there are a number of major aspects to her character that are not shared among the expy's.

To qualify for the trope, a character has to meet three conditions.

A) Tiny. They need to be noticeibly smaller than their peers, both male and female. This may be due to them actually being younger than most of the cast, or simply being short.

B) Tyranical. They have to have an overbearing manner. They will always try to take charge, despite what other characters may think. They may or may not actually succeed, but they have to be the kind of person who likes bossing people around

C) Tsundere. They need to have a tsundere personality. I think some confusion comes from the fact that its quite possible to by Tyranical but not Tsundere, or Tsundere and not Tyranical. To fit this trope they have to be both.

There are some other, common features, but these are not required:

1) Zettai Ryouiki. Very common, possibly the most notable consistent appearance for these characters

2) Long hair. Almost always have hair below the shoulder. Sometimes in twintails, generally will be either blonde or red/orange, but sometimes will have dark hair. Shana herself actually has jet-black hair, that turns flame-red when she uses her powers

3) Love Interest. Almost always the main love interest, but not absolutely required.

Closed the crowner. The proposed title is not acceptable.

Why?

This is 100% a Japan only trope, the proposed title describe the trope in its entirety, and there is no good reason why the name of another existing trope can't be used in a related trope.

Also, while you are here doing things by fiat, go stop by the Dumbledore thread, please?

I don't like the title either, but I'm curious as to your reasoning when that I have never seen anything close to this trope outside of anime.

Also, yeah, go check out the Dumbledore thread. If you don't want to go do something there that's fine and we can just do a new crowner, but if you just decided it yourself that might save some time.

edited 29th Jul '11 5:38:13 PM by Arha

Someone going to put up a crowner for alternate titles, since the consensus has been overridden and Fast Eddie is unlikely to be changing his mind?

Someone needs to suggest a good alternate title.

Crowner hooked.

Well, I guess you could go with something like Tiny Tyrant or Loli Tyrant but that doesn't capture all of the trope.

"Loli" will fly in the anime fandom and nowhere else.

Yeah, I know. Deadpan Loli was renamed a long time ago, after all.

What do you think of "Remake as a section under Fountain of Expies"?

Disappointed in Fast Eddie. Why are you allowed to contradict consensus? Looks like I need to start my own wiki. Also: Breaking your own rules.

edited 29th Jul '11 6:22:35 PM by jcdietz03

Omg WTF there is no other title that will not lead to misuse... Anything that is not Tsundere.

Speaking frankly here Closing a crowner because it's not going your way is really bad form... It's really coming off very badly.

Can I open a rename thread for The Libby Lovable Libby and about 400 other tropes that are related and have related names? As well as all tropes with a tropenamer or character named trope or ya know 95% of the tropes on this site.

edited 29th Jul '11 6:32:38 PM by Raso

The right way is to use arguments to sway people to your point of view. I suppose the point is moot, though.

Someone else already set up the TV Tropes Mirror, which is mostly the front page, where the wiki designers bitch about how Fast Eddie is a tyrannical wee/a/boo who gives anime special privileges.

Just for added irony.

(I strongly oppose Eddie's action here, but whining and threatening to Rage Quit is not the right way to deal with that. There's more effective ways to fight back if you actually want to do so.)

edited 29th Jul '11 6:48:20 PM by Ramidel

Can't think of a way of replacing "tsundere" in one word "unstable" perhaps?

Unstable does not equal Tsundere... Bipolar doesnt work as well. Palmtop Tiger is from Toradora probably one of the biggest standouts out there of this.... so I guess that could work but is way more misleading since you have to get the reference as well as it still doesn't imply the Dere side of the character.

what should we do here then?

Palmtop Tigress is a terrible name for it. I mean, I watched Toradora so I at least get the reference but it gets little about the trope across.

Its better than anything else on the crowner... the rest are misleading, inviting misuse or just flat out wrong. At least this one is related.

We have much worse on the site... IE The Libby and Lovable Libby.

edited 29th Jul '11 9:23:02 PM by Raso

I think the advantage to Palmtop Tiger (since we can't have Tsundere in the name) is that it

1) clearly refers to a specific character without using a name that could be referring to someone else 2) anyone who knows what palmtop tiger is will probably know what we're talking about, and we can at least use the name we like better as a more general redirect 3) even as a nickname it at least vaguely describes the trope even if you don't know what it's referring to. 4) probably unlikely to be misused.

But seriously Eddie, this is just being prideful. I mostly agree with the rules that are being put in place, even this one, except in this case. Tsundere as a word is an accepted term to describe a phenomenon that is otherwise unable to be described succinctly and even though it isn't especially well-known term outside of Otaku culture, chances are that it actually will be eventually because it's the term people are actually using. There is no competing term for it. You might as well act ahead here. I suspect if we name this something else, that eventually we actually will be renaming it with Tsundere in the name and wondering why we didn't in the first place.

without commenting on the wrongs or rights of how we got to this rename, Palmtop Tigress sounds really bad for this. It makes me think of a miniature tiger (or other big cat). The only advantage I suppose is the lack of those in fiction (at the moment). It really isn't descriptive.

For the record, someone said "screw it" and launched the Shana Expy YKTTW as Flat Fearsome Female. Just thought you wanted to know.

And is it just me, or is Fast Eddie's avatar above completely wacked? It's screwing with the readability of his posts.

That said, here are my two cents.

Back when this trope was first launched as Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere, it was promptly cut by Fast Eddie within a couple of hours of its launch, with the stated reason being "English-only titles". Later on, the reason became "no trope name should require prior understanding of another trope to understand it", i.e. "no trope names that contain other trope names unless they are generally understandable at first glance to someone who never read/heard of the name before."

This approach poses several serious problems due to the following:

1. The trope has three indispensable cornerstones:
   1. Tsundere Type A (Tsun-dominant), mix of Violent Approach and Tyrannical Rule, with the special note that "unlike some others whose attitude only stems from their hot temper combined with awkward social skills with boys, hers seems to be an inherently dominant, bossy personality, almost to the point of evoking the attitude of a BDSM dominatrix".
   2. Short stature; the male lead that she is paired with is always at least One Head Taller, and her shortness is usually empahsized with at least waist-length Rapunzel Hair.
   3. Very small to flat chest; almost always comes with A-Cup Angst, especially if there's a well-endowed Miss Fanservice in the cast. Sometimes she might even have what is commonly called in anime/manga fandom as a "loli body type" - even if she's really teenaged/adult, she looks much like a child.
2. On a side note, the character type is often voiced by Rie Kugimiya, and thus is commonly also called Rie Kugimiya Tsundere.
3. The character type is by necessity Japanese media-exclusive, as it's explicitly an Expy of a specific anime/manga character; the only place you would find a non-Japanese media example is in Animesque works, for obvious reasons.
   1. On the off-chance that you do find examples predating Shana, the point still stands, because practically every instance of this character type follows the same mould as codified/popularized by Rie Kugimiya-voiced short and flat Tsundere characters.
4. Flat Fearsome Female fails to describe the short stature and Tsundere aspects, choosing only to focus on the flat-chestedness and the fearsomeness factor (violent Tsundere does not equate to "fearsome", people). It's just asking for Trope Decay, and thus must be changed ASAP.
5. Shana Clone had been rejected by Fast Eddie on grounds that it "[m]eans absolutely noting. It is a named based title", and "[n]ot remotely in the same class of reknown" as Bruce Lee or Elvis.

Side note:' There is already a Tiny Tyrannical Girl YKTTW underway, which should be more or less a Super-Trope of this.

If there any points that I have forgotten to list, inform me and I will add them.

So... Objective: Come up with a better name instead of Flat Fearsome Female. Imperative: Balance between clarity and accuracy; no unfairly biased emphasis of one over the other.

PS: Should we do a separate TRS for Rei Ayanami Expy as well? The basic problem is true for it as well.

edited 30th Jul '11 7:02:51 AM by MarqFJA

Okay, now a question. Should we have the black-launched trope cut?

I'm asking because the consensus will be virulently against any name right now, since the crowner has hit a Writer Revolt by the tropers.

As for Rei Ayanami Expy: No, we shouldn't.

edited 30th Jul '11 7:41:39 AM by Ramidel