Is this really a trope?: Bi The Way

Bump for the sake of resolving the issue in some way.

Why makes "character is quite unstereotypically bisexual" untropeable, BTW? We have No Bisexuals and Everyone Is Bi as two extremes, with the former being the current norm for mainstream works due to (paraphrasing from the article) a combination of not understanding real-life bisexuality and the common opinion that bisexuality is weirder/more perverse than "mere" homosexuality (which has its own Unfortunate Implications, see bisexual erasue); and then we have the bisexual stereotypes of Anything That Moves (which technically includes pansexuals as well) and Depraved Bisexual. Why not a Straight Gay-like trope for bisexual characters that avert all the aforementioned stereotypes?

Urgh, too sleep deprived to respond well, but there are many bisexual stereotypes. Anything That Moves, that we have to be polyamorous to be happy, that since some sociopaths are bisexual, all bisexuals are some sort of sociopath, that bisexuals can't commit, that there are No Bisexuals, and we're all just gay/straight and in denial about it... I can't think of what else I might have run into. I hope I remember this topic later.

There is also Situational Sexuality and a few others.

However there are a few that are not Anything That Moves nor Its You So Its Ok or anything else so I think this trope does have a place. If only as a supertrope with a few non-standard examples and an index.

I really can't see how this is not a trope, really. Seeing as all the different things around on this site, this is no different than another element of storytelling. It's a character who the Bisexual stereotypes are avoided on and character in confirmed bisexual. It's an element of the character which makes up who they are, reason enough to not rid it.

I will admit some of these are ambiguous examples that need to be cleaned, but trope itself should stay and seems fine to me.

The difference between Bi The Way and Straight Gay is that people, rightly or wrongly, associate dozens of stereotypes with gays. The pitch of their voice, the volume of their voice, the cadence of their voice, the cut of their clothes, the color of their clothes, their obsession with clothes overall, their taste in music, their taste in theater, the way they walk, the way they move their hands, their reduced masculinity, their extreme masculinity… and various other stereotypes that a fictional portrayal might be expected to use or exaggerate. Straight Gay consciously eschews ALL of these stereotypes, subverting the audience's expectations of how a gay person will appear.

Bisexuality has ONE stereotype: bisexuals are promiscuous. That's it. Depraved Bisexual, No Bisexuals, Everyone Is Bi, Sudden Sexuality… those aren't stereotypes. Those are tropes.

If we had a page describing aversions of that stereotype, it'd be Non Promiscious Bisexual, which would make the page's pointlessness more clear.

edited 7th Sep '11 12:57:09 PM by Routerie

Bisexuality has more stereotypes than that. They tend to get a water down version of a lot of gay stereotypes. They tend to be treated as having no standards at all in who they'll sleep with. They tend to be treated as if they have no morals what so ever (Depraved Bisexual). Or they're treated as if their sexuality is a just because they're bored.

Yes, their stereotypes are more behaviour based than appearance based, but that doesn't mean they aren't stereotypes.

edited 7th Sep '11 1:07:44 PM by shimaspawn

"They tend to get a water down version of a lot of gay stereotypes."

By whom? Which stereotypes? For instance, does the public at large say bisexuals are "kind of" interested in show tunes but not too much?

"They tend to be treated as having no standards at all in who they'll sleep with."

Yes. Bisexuals are promiscuous is a stereotype.

"They tend to be treated as if they have no morals what so ever (Depraved Bisexual)."

If you mean bisexuals are promiscuous, then again, I agree that that's a stereotype. If you mean that bisexuals are Ax-Crazy, which is what Depraved Bisexual is about, then no, that's a media trope. No one expects bisexuals in general to be like that.

"They're treated as if their sexuality is a just because they're bored."

Yes, that's a stereotype, but as you point out, that's different from appearance or mannerisms. That's a stereotype that some people believe about bisexuals, but would you say that's a typical or expected part of bisexual portrayal, or bisexual caricature?

Media perceptions are all that matter. It doesn't matter if real bisexuals are axe crazy or not. Media tropes are the only stereotypes that matter. Bisexuals tend to be well groomed and effeminate. Camp though they tend to be less camp than actual gay characters.

If you read the thread, I think Daremo covered the various stereotypes already back in post 52. It's a lot more than just "Bis are promiscuous".

Heck, thanks to the pansexual folks, you could probably also add on "interested only in rigid gender stereotypes and sex instead of love".

edited 7th Sep '11 2:55:02 PM by Jeysie

Media perceptions absolutely matter. But tropes don't always point to wider perceptions. Depraved Bisexual is a thing, as is Asian and Nerdy or Magical Negro. That doesn't point to a gerneral media perception of bisexuals, Asians or blacks, and we needn't list examples of "normal" (non-depraved, non-nerdy, non-magical) bisexuals, Asians and blacks.

Read the entire conversation on Straight Gay from here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13151603990A91527300&page=1#15 all the way to https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13151603990A91527300&page=2#35 as this would just end up being the exact same progression just in a different thread.

edited 7th Sep '11 3:04:55 PM by Jeysie

What he said.

edited 7th Sep '11 3:04:13 PM by shimaspawn

Yes, I saw that post, but it does just add up to Bisexuals Are Promiscuous.

1. Anything That Moves —> Promiscuous
2. "that we have to be polyamorous to be happy" —> Promiscuous
3. "that since some sociopaths are bisexual, all bisexuals are some sort of sociopath —> Depraved Bisexual, but as I said, where's there any assumption, in fiction or otherwise, that bisexuals are probably serial killers?
4. "that bisexuals can't commit" —> Promiscuous
5. No Bisexuals —> That's not a stereotype about them. That's… a denial of their existence. And any bisexual, no matter the portrayal, breaks that.
6. "We're all just gay/straight and in denial about it." —> Yes, that's a stereotype. Shimaspawn mentioned it too. But again, is that a typical part of bisexual portrayal/caricature anywhere or just a prejudiced attitude? There may be a "stereotype" among bigots that people of X race smell bad without it ever being part of a media portrayal.

edited 7th Sep '11 3:09:30 PM by Routerie

That's an interesting thread, and I think that we have an answer to the question in the title. Can an aversion of a trope be a trope itself? Yes — if by "aversion," you mean the inclusion of one part of the trope without the expected associated parts, if the trope itself is sufficiently common and understood, and if you can describe this independent trope partly by describing what it is rather than what is isn't.

So yes, Straight Gay is a conscious aversion of various gay tropes. You may even call it a subversion, if the very presence of a gay character suggests some of many possible stereotypes.

But is Normal Baby is conscious aversion of Enfant Terrible and Doorstop Baby? Is Normal Maid a conscious aversion of French Maid and Robot Maid? Aversions are only portrayals when "played straight" is very much the norm. What is the typical played straight portrayal of a bisexual? Does it more than "promiscuous character" or "promiscuous gay character who likes both sexes"?

Going back to Straight Gay, we can describe it by what the character does rather than parts the characterization leaves out. A Straight Gay character, as Shimsaspawn said in that thread, may drink beer, play sports, and wear (though later posters mocked this) tshirts and jeans. And yet that doesn't make a bisexual character Bi The Way. We haven't defined Bi The Way as "acting straight" at all, have we? Would a stereotypically gay character who is bisexual be an example of Bi The Way - he or she isn't acting like a bisexual, whatever that entails.

edited 7th Sep '11 3:33:52 PM by Routerie

Bi The Way is a bisexual acting straight/gay in the sense that people are surprised to find out they're bisexual instead of straight or gay.

I mean, speaking as a bisexual, I actually got "Huh, I thought you were straight" said to me.

edited 7th Sep '11 3:40:27 PM by Jeysie

Sure, I'd bet many expect bisexuals to act as "gay" as gay people. In fact, bi who acts straight might be a trope. Bi who acts gay, I'm a little less sure about, because I don't think there's an expectation that bis wouldn't appear gay, but if we did treat it as a trope, it would be separate from Straight Bi. However, bi who doesn't act bi doesn't work as a page because it assumes some false agreement of what "acting bi" is.

To take the examples other people mentioned, I'm sure no one ever told you "You're bi? I wouldn't have guessed it because you're not a sociopath." Or "You're bi? I wouldn't have guessed it because I thought there are No Bisexuals." Or "You're bi? I wouldn't have guessed it because you act so sure rather than trying it out from boredom or indecision."

I've certainly been told that someone wouldn't have guessed I'm bi because bisexuals don't exist outside of television. I've been told in real life that bisexuals are all serial killers. I've been told in real life that people are only bi in college and that I'll just grow out of it. I've been told that I'm only bi because I haven't found anyone interesting. I've been told I'm only bi because I have too much time on my hands and I should find a real job.

These stereotypes are alive and well in the real world as much as I wish that they were confined to media.

In addition to what Shima's said:

edited 7th Sep '11 4:30:11 PM by Jeysie

Yeah, there's a considerable (if not majority) portion people from both the het and gay camps accuse bisexuals of being closet straights/gays respectively, essentially asserting that bisexuality is nothing but either self-deception or an attempt to hide one's true sexuality.

From an official report on the treatment of bisexuals in society:

So basically, all those things you say only exist in TV, are the real world perceptions of bi people. They're done studies that prove it.

Looks like I was totally wrong with that last paragraph. I shouldn't have appealed to your personal experience at all. But we're dealing with three things here. There's the popular media depiction of bisexuals (if any one such depiction even exists!). There's popular belief about actual bisexuals. And there there all the beliefs some people have because they're just ignorant.

We care most about the first, and if the third affects neither of the other two, we don't care about it at all. Take the stereotype that Jews Have Horns. Not heard of it? You're lucky. But some people actually tell their children that, enough that I've met two different people who really believed it, at least till they reached college. Is that enough to make a Jew Normal trope, which features the characteristic "doesn't have horns"? I hope not.

I might have drifted a little from the topic, so let's go back to each of those stereotypes.

No Bisexuals - If someone believes bisexuals exist only on TV, not in real life, that speaks against the No Bisexuals being a media stereotype. But no matter how many people think bisexuals don't exist (a recent Northwestern study actually sought to determine whether they do!), that wouldn't be a component of a Bi The Way trope. Any portrayal of bisexuality averts No Bisexuals. A bisexual who appears at first to be straight or gay does not avert No Bisexuals. That more closely plays No Bisexuals straight.

Depraved Bisexuals - Though the trope certainly exists, people overall don't believe it applies in real life. Some people do; some people think Jews Have Horns. More relevantly, fiction: bisexual serial killers are a trope, but they aren't the norm. No one writes a story saying, "let's try and play up the not-a-serial-killer angle. Y'know. As a twist."

Bi Till Graduation - This could be its own trope, if we could scrape up the examples. But are there enough to suggest that a bi character will probably grow out of it, so their not doing so is notable?

Bi Till Met Bob - I don't even understand this one. You could be straight till you meet an interesting person of the same sex, or gay till meeting one of the opposite sex. But bi till you meet someone? How does that work? Or is that like "uncommitted till you found the One"? Regardless, have you ever seen this fiction?

Bored Bisexual - Again, people say random things. There's no assumption in fiction that a bisexual character probably just needs to find a job.

Even if we let the page exist, you see that it's currently broken, right? It's largely just a list of bisexuals. And the wicks are even worse. I haven't done a formal check, but it looks like they almost ALL just use Bi The Way for "bisexual."

edited 7th Sep '11 5:14:59 PM by Routerie

No, it's being used for bisexuals that are completely normal and straight acting. Which is a trope. It's rare that bisexuals are portrayed in media at all. To have them not demonized is not yet People Sit On Chairs. I wish it was.

We do have tropes for other minorities. Just look at the Token Index for a whole long list of them. If we were doing this wiki during the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's you'd find people troping the fact that we were moving away from vilifying blacks in media and showing that they are actually normal people.

We as a society have not yet reached the point where this isn't a new thing to show bisexuals as normal people. This is a new, emerging, and positive trope.

Yeah, it's the exact same reason why Straight Gay is a trope, which is why I linked to that conversation in that other thread to forestall retreading the same ground. (Well, I tried.)

Since being gay or bi is still notable and not yet People Sit On Chairs, being a gay or bi person that isn't a stereotype still qualifies as a trope. It's kind of like how, say, Action Girl has progressed over time, from being a deliberate and stereotypical subversion or aversion that was definitely a trope to being commonplace enough that it's starting to lose trope status. Straight Gay and Bi The Way are nowhere near that end point yet.

edited 7th Sep '11 5:36:52 PM by Jeysie

As to purposely Subverting Depraved Bisexual, it happens far more than I'm comfortable with. It's almost creepy how they tend to set up the idea that everyone should assume that the bisexual is the depraved one even if the killer turns out to be someone else.

All right, just going through the works that I know:

• Five Hundred Days Of Summer - Hints of BUG
• Easy A - Definitely BUG
• Buffy The Vampire Slayer - Willow's alter ego, who's a Depraved Bisexual. Willow herself, who actually claims to be full out lesbian after she comes out.
• Chuck - Hints of Anything That Moves, but Anna never actually has a relationship with a woman, is seen with a woman or explicitly says she's been with a woman.
• Heroes - Claire thinks Gretchen is a psycho stalker before learning the truth.
• Glee - Brittany is indeed bisexual, though also mentally deficient.
• True Blood - Eric is bisexual. Also a vampire mass murderer...
• Friends - Phoebe's occasional hinted bisexuality was never more than a joke.
• How I Met Your Mother - Again, just a joke. Lily is not portrayed as a bisexual.
• Fallout - You? I guess that could be an example? Also one NPC, who is indeed bisexual.
• Family Guy - Again, Lois is only as bisexual as the joke demands.

NONE of these examples talk about an actual bisexual character and then mention why then they avert bi stereotypes.

Random wick check:

• You Must Be Cold - Misuse. Potholed into "bi," acting straight is irrelevant.
• Unseen Academicals - Misuse. Speculation on whether a character is bi, acting straight is irrelevant.
• Video Games - Misuse, potholed from "bi" again.
• Weeds - I'm going to say "misuse" because it's about someone who was with a woman in prison but never otherwise.
• VC Andrews - Misuse. Specifically about someone who was temporarily bi.
• Vanessa Carlton - Unless this can apply to a real person, misuse.
• Triang Relations - Misuse. Used for "bisexual," acting straight is irrelevant.
• The Sky Tides - Misuse. Potholed to explain innuendo, acting straight is irrelevant.
• The Office (US) - Misuse. The resident crazy talking about how a man might have slipped into orgies he intended, "there was no way of knowing."
• The Host Of Seraphim Character - Can't tell, X Just X
• The Diary Of Anne Frank - Misuse. She's real.
• The Conformist - X Just X
• The Big Bang Theory - Misuse, potholed from bi.
• Street Fighter - Misuse, potholed into a theory hoping for lesbian action.
• Spit Take - Misuse, references to having slept with someone, acting straight is irrelevant.
• So Deal With It - Misuse, potholed from bisexual.
• Slut Girl - Misuse, promiscuous bi.
• Namir Deiter - Correct use, I think.
• Love at First Sight - Misuse. Potholed from someone's bi attraction.
• Masters Of Horror - X Just X
• Overlord Academy - X Just X
• Revenant Two - Misuse, Anything That Moves
• They Are My Noble Masters - Misuse, someone's "possibly" bisexual.
• Porn Stash - Misuse, potholed for bisexual
• Evan Rachel Wood - Misuse, real person.
• Dummied Out - Misuse, bisexuality not even associated with anyone in particular.
• Conversation Room Of The SOCIETY - Misuse, potholed by an editor looking for guys
• Greek Mythology - Misuse, talking about promiscuous men
• I Banged Your Mom - Sinkholed into the same word as Depraved Bisexual
• Bi The Way - Misuse, mistaken for Informed Sexuality

So that's, what 96% misuse? That's a problem.

edited 7th Sep '11 6:26:23 PM by Routerie