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Why does Ned refuse Renly's offer to take Joffrey prisoner?
- Firstly, this would prevent the little sociopath from ascending to the throne. It would also give the Lannisters some pause about making a move on King's Landing, giving Stannis (Ned's preferred successor to Robert) time to rally his forces. Yes, Ned, taking children prisoner is in morally grey waters - but do you remember a certain Theon Greyjoy?
- It's one thing to take the son of your enemy as a ward as a consequence for rebellion against the throne, so as to breed them into the man the mentor wanted them to be for the future, and another thing entirely to seize the heir to the throne, almost universally recognized as such (with a few who knew what was actually going on), and hold him outright hostage. Do remember that Theon was Ned's "Ward", this case would have been "Kidnapping a young child", especially one who had yet to commit any crimes worthy of being imprisoned. Far less honorable.
- The North, the Riverlands, the Reach, the Stormlands, the Iron Islands and Dragonstone all rose up against Joffrey. They certainly didn't universally recognize him as heir.
- The North and Riverlands only fought against the Crown after Ned was killed; The Reach and Stormlands did so to back Renly, but the Reach later changed their minds; The Iron Islands fought against the North, not the Crown; Only Dragonstone didn't recognize him as heir to begin with. Besides, Ned's main issue was the safety of the children and the idea of shedding blood during the mourning period.
Why didn't Ned tell Robert about Cersei & Jaime?
- Why didn't Ned simply tell Robert about his wife, then stand up for the kids and protect them with his very life? The kids are innocent, but their mother isn't, and there's no reason for him to give her a chance to save herself (and cause a war with Castelry Rock). And it's not like he hadn't taken hostages before, such as Theon.
- The kids were the product of incest (abominations in the eyes of the faith of the seven), and the product of the queen cheating on the king with a member of the kingsguard. Everything about that sentence equates to all of them needing to die by law. Also, Ned's track record with convincing Robert that killing kids was bad was 0-2 at that point. He couldn't do anything to convince Robert not to kill Dany, he had no reason to think he'd be able to convince him not to kill the Lannister bastards.
- Yes, but Dany is the sister of the man who had (in Robert's eyes, anyway) abducted and raped the love of his life. It stands to reason he'd show her no mercy, and it makes even more sense he'd dispose of Rhaenys and Aegon due to their even closer connection to Rhaegar. I'm sure most people would agree that it's a darn sight harder to kill three kids you've thought of as your own for thirteen-plus years.
- Kids that you suddenly learn are not only not yours, but are your brother in law's bastards hidden and lied to you by your wife, who stand to inherit everything to your name in a society where your name is everything. Dubious parentage like that is why we have Jerry Springer.
- If Robert's reaction was to have them all immediately executed (and he seems like the type who might), it'd be a little late to then protest that the children were innocent of any treason (which would ironically save Joffrey).
- Well, keep in mind, Robert eventually does relent and regrets his choice to attempt to execute Dany. If Ned had waited till Robert was on his deathbed (which he couldn't do to his friend, but say hypothetically), I think Robert would only have raged at Cersei and Jaime. I don't see Robert ordering the deaths of the children, even Joffrey at that stage.
- His regret comes at his deathbed (when he's probably in a more reflective mood than usually) and doesn't help anything. Ned's distrust for Robert didn't come exclusively from the opinion of the king's morality (and keep in mind that Ned loved Robert and saw the best he could in him), but rather of the knowledge of his temper. He could just execute the children and come to regret it when it would be too late.
Why did Varys put out the hit on Dany?
- ADWD reveals that Varys' plan, at the time, was for Viserys to join The Golden Company with Khal Drogo's khalasar (the price of which was Dany's hand in marriage), so wouldn't her death pretty much put an end to the pact? I understand he didn't want to support Ned in front of the Council so as not to draw attention/suspicion to himself, but, why not just take Robert's orders, tell him the assassin failed? Why actually send the poisoner?
- According to Jorah, they didn't so much send the poisoner as they put out an open bounty; kill one of the Targaryan siblings, get a lordship. Dany even joked that Robert owed Drogo a lordship for killing Viserys. Varys seemed to be betting that any attempt made would simply fail; Dany was the most protected person in what was suggested to be the most powerful khalassar in the world, sending anything less than a Faceless Man would most likely result in failure. On the other hand, he did have the ace of "Aegon" up his sleeve; maybe he was planning on killing Viserys and Dany as a way of putting Robert into a false sense of security. Varys' plans have to be flexible.
- Also, while he didn't actually say (I think?) that "Go slowly, you say - move faster, I reply" line from the TV show in the books, it does make sense that his goal would be to get Dany moving for Westeros instead of allowing her to settle contentedly into Essos and maybe be less likely to want to leave later. Remember: that assassination attempt was the thing that really got the Dothraki fired up for an invasion. Without it, Dany might still be chilling in the grasslands.
- I was under the impression that Varys sent the poisoner to build trust between Dany and Jorah. He told Jorah about the poisoner so that he could save her and she would see that he saved her life.
- Varys had only warned Jorah that attempts would be made. Having just received the warning, Jorah would be doubly suspicious and so insisted the wine seller taste his own product first.
- Not to mention that if he were caught not obeying Robert's order, he would probably end up losing his head. Varys has repeatedly been shown to have a very keen sense of self-preservation.
"Lord" Commander of the Night's Watch
- If the men of the Night's Watch aren't meant to hold titles, how come they are led by a Lord Commander rather than, say, just a commander?
- "Lord Commander" sounds cooler.
- Commander is a title as well, so I don't see the difference here. At any rate, the oath they swear about holding no titles surely mean no titles external to the Night's Watch. An organization which ideally employs several thousand people can't work if there is no sort of hierarchy.
- In a feudal context, a "title" is more than just an appellation in front of your name; it's actual lands and authorities for yourself and your heirs. Lord Commander is just a rank (the lord part being relevant partially because it's just a generic term for a ranked person, and partially because the Night's Watch as a whole possesses lands).
- The Kingsguard is also led by a Lord Commander. Also, both Varys and Hallyne are Lords even though they hold no lands or even a house.
- Varys 'isn't' an actual lord, he is only called 'Lord Varys' out of respect.
- If i recall correctly, it started out when Littlefinger referred to him as "Lord Eunuch", and people started using the "Lord"-part in public. In that case it's more of an ascended joke than respect. (Most everyone openly dislikes Varys anyways...)
- It has nothing to do with Littlefinger's nickname for him; any member of the Small Council is granted the ceremonial title of "lord" whether they hold lands or not. Sort of like how the commanding officer of a ship is always referred to as "Captain" in that capacity, even if they actually hold a lower rank.
- That doesn't seem to be the case. Cersei specifically points out that everyone called Varys 'Lord' while debating with Pycelle over Qyburn holding the title, yet she never mentions tradition. Unless there's some small moment where it's mentioned, it seems more likely that Varys was just given the title informally a sign of how much he's respected and feared.
- Pycelle objects on the grounds that Qyburn swore a maester's oath to hold no lordships (note that Pycelle himself never styles himself "lord," although he sits on the small council; his only title is "Grand Maester"). Cersei replies that by stripping him of his chain, the Citadel also released him from his vows. She brings up Varys because Qyburn is taking up Varys' old position as Master of Whisperers, therefore the ceremonial title of "lord" that goes along with the council seat also passes to him. (AFFC, Cersei IV)
- Yes, and from the same chapter there is zero mention of tradition or ceremony by anyone, especially Cersei. Her exact words are "We called the eunuch lord as well, you may recall." So unless there's some point in another chapter or in expanded materials that state that each member of the Small Council save the Grand Maester is given an honorary title of 'lord', we can't just take that chapter to mean that they do.
- Yes, and the clear implication behind those exact words is that, since they called Varys "lord" in a ceremonial capacity despite his not holding any lands, they should do the same for Qyburn, who now holds the same position Varys used to. You know what it's called when you do something because you've consistently done it in the past? A tradition. It's not rocket science. As far as extended materials, from the GoT wiki entry on Varys: "He holds no inherited title, castle or lands in Westeros, but is called "Lord" as a courtesy due to his position on the council, which traditionally is made up of high lords," followed by a footnote citing the HBO web site as a source (with a link I can't follow due to a web filter at work). Happy?
- That sounds less ceremony and more courtesy (the difference being between a rule and being polite), but yes, at least so far as the show goes and we can assume for the moment that the book is the same absent contradictory statements.
- One man is already Commander of Eastwatch for instance. Or any of the other castles. Lord Command is in charge of them all. It's a chain of command rank.
- As far as I've understood, the title of "Lord Commander" is only used for the Night's Watch and the Kingsguard, and notably not of the Gold Cloaks (or maybe once or twice after Janos Slynt has been named lord of Harrenhal). To me, it comes across as a shorthand to say that a Lord Commander has a status equal to that of a regular lord.
Agrarian Economics and the Long Winter
- If a winter can last for as long as an entire generation (20 years +), er, how exactly can they grow food during this period? I mean, in our world, a hard winter can be enough to cause some serious starving, but when virtually the entire continent(?) suffers from extreme temperatures, how in the name of the old gods do they have even a slight chance of making it through a relatively short winter period, let alone a long one? And with this continent wide civil war going on... will a wizard do it all??
- (Placed up here because it answers the original question) They make use of "glass gardens" in Westeros. Such a glass garden is - depending on size and selection of crops) able to feed a whole castle.
- In addition to glass gardens there must also be some sort of trade with the more southern portions of Westeros and the other continents. In winter, not 'all' of Westeros is covered in snow (certainly not Dorne). So some food must get up there. The Riverlands probably get it pretty bad, and everything north of the Neck is probably on lockdown. The people that probably get screwed the worst are the smallfolk, but sadly no-one really cares about them. There's a difference between "winter" conditions and "arctic" conditions. I'm betting that anything south of the Neck doesn't get much worst than "winter" except during the particularly harsh ones.
- Bear in mind that summers last longer than winters, and winters rarely last more than five years, so if they can preserve food they're just as well off as on earth. Also, in the area of Kings Landing it's probably going to be possible to raise some frost-resistant crops even during the winter. The winter that lasted an entire generation was all-around bad news, but that was 8000 years ago.
- Also, Seasons don't last anything like 20 years, in general. In the TV series, Littlefinger notes that they have enough food for a five year Winter, which is presumably a reasonable precaution. A twenty year Winter is more like a thousand year storm (and the effect of which would be apocalyptic, like Dany's vision in the House of the Undying).
- Westeros in general seems to be slightly more tropical than medieval Europe - there are alligators in the Neck, remember. Out on the Wall it is probably fairly grim, but then they can hunt animals and have other food sent up from the southern parts of the North.
- They store what they can (I believe they mention having five years' worth of stores before winter) and probably buy what they need from abroad. Certainly a few traders in the Free Cities have figured out that there's a seasonal gold mine to be had, especially since whether or not the long seasons are an entirely Westerosi concept may mean that Essos has can have regular harvests.
- In short, they can't. Unless something new is given to us with regard to information (Personally I hope there are some crops unique to ASOIAF that can grow in winter) it's unrealistic. In medieval times most people tended to survive an average winter but it still required a degree of hunger and a short Autumn or early Spring could be deadly. A winter that lasted for two years solid would kill masses of people. A winter of five it wouldn't surprise me if it killed well over half the population and a winter of ten or twenty years would lead to almost total extinction. And that level of population loss can't explain why King's landing (Half a million) is so huge or where these relatively large armies come from. You can store grain that long but there doesn't seem to be much indicated there are ten years worth of grain stored about for every town, even if you could live on that alone.
The Westerosi calendar
- How do they measure years in this universe? Actually, why do they measure by years, considering the main cultural point of a year is seasonal shift?
- The seasons are not regular enough to use as years in the Ice and Fire universe. They could use the moon, of course.
- Exactly - why don't they just measure by the lunar cycle? Or say ten lunar cycles equal a year - because ten is a more natural number to use as an increment than twelve is. (On the other hand, what if that's what they've been doing all along? Just when I thought this universe couldn't get any squickier...)
- You're used to the decimal system, so it's understandable that you think people might choose ten months because it is "more natural". Look at stuff like the Imperial system, and you will realize that this really hasn't been the case throughout history. People have used base-20, base-12, base-60... you can't just make a blanket statement like "ten is more logical" and expect it to stick. They could have made it twelve months or even thirteen, because both of those numbers are more "mystical". Without detailed reference to Westeros astronomy, we really can't tell what system they used to decide the year.
- You know who started base twelve (and, by extension, 60)? The Mesopotamians. Not coincidentally, they were the first to mix agriculture and astronomy in a big way. Base ten, of course, came about because humans have ten fingers, and one of the main points of A Song of Ice and Fire is just how self-centered human beings are.
- We can be fairly sure that they use base-10 in Westeros because there were 77 courses at Joffrey's wedding in A Storm of Swords. Eleven sevens would not have been particularly holy (by virtue of 77 having two sevens) outside of base-10. It could be argued that any multiple of 7 would do the job for a wedding, but the fact that 7 is the only number Tyrion quotes as acceptable below 77 when thinking about a cheaper wedding would suggest otherwise.
- Word of God says the Westerosi year is approximately the same length as an Earth year. So if their lunar cycle is the same, 12 months.
- A year is not only seasonal, it is also the time it takes for the planet to go around the sun or, from the POV of the locals, for the sun to repeat its path through the sky (e.g. time between solstices)
- Seasons on Earth are caused in large part by insolation, literally the term for how much of the sun's energy is hitting the Earth's surface. The Earth's tilt causes less or more sunlight to hit a particular area at a particular time, so it is colder or hotter there on average...hence we have seasons. So if the book universe has the same insolation patterns, i.e. the same solstice/equinox timeline, we would expect it to have the same seasonal pattern as well. Clearly it doesn't. The most likely explanation for years being the same is so that we can hear that someone is 10 years old and know what it means; i.e. the author doesn't have to invent, explain, and keep track of an entirely different year system. Or it's possible he just didn't think about it very deeply.
- How do you know that? More to the point, how do they know how long it takes their world to orbit the sun? Do the know that their world orbits the sun and not the other way around? Does their planet orbit the sun or is it the other way around (only one planet in a star system with a moon could be said to be the center of the system)? Are their solstices a year apart, what with the seasons being crazy like they are? Really I'm just curious how you can have a irregular seasonal structure.
- They may not know the orbital mechanics of it but it's trivially easy to make a practical measure of the position of the sun. Stonehenge and various Egyptian structures serve as or have that function included. It's the difference between being able to measure something and understanding how it works. And I'd also point out, the heliocentric model is a lot older than people think.
- The sky does have seven 'wanderers', implying that there are eight planets in total orbiting the sun, like our universe. If all seven are visible to the naked eye, and don't include the sun and moon this implies that the equivalents of Uranus and Neptune are closer and/or brighter than in our universe. Alternatively, the last two may only be visible through telescopes (Myrish lenses).
- When ASOIAF first started being written, the solar system had nine planets, so I wouldn't rely too heavily on the intent being to have an Earthlike solar system. This also, of course, depends exactly which book this was mentioned in.
- False, Pluto was discovered back in 1930. Anyways, it's actually possible that the unusual seasons can be put down to multiple suns (mostly because we don't know how that would work with certainty just yet), only one of which is visible thanks to atmospheric issues or such other crazy things that can distort the light. Is it also possible for there to be a slighter planet tilt on their world, and that their winters are just ice ages like our planet has gotten...?
- Not False, As Pluto is the 9th planet and was considered a planet then, but now it's not. As for the seasons, this troper assumed it had more to do with magic then the planet's orbital behavior.
- No idea how the seasons actually work. Even the author shrugs and goes "magic" on that one.
- To be fair, the seasons and the coming of Winter are big plot points that the author may not want to reveal prematurely, rather than just not knowing how it works.
- The seasons could be explained by an elliptical orbit, similar to Pluto. If the planet orbits the sun slower, then long summers and long winters can be explained by the planet's distance from the sun.
- The seasons would still be regular in that case, just longer.
- He doesn't just shrug and say magic, he says that the explanation for that is magical. That doesn't mean he doesn't know what it is.
- Perhaps they don't actually measure years, and any mention of years is part of a Translation Convention. Alternately, I recall hearing somewhere that Westeros' peculiar seasons are not natural in origin, and may be linked to The Doom of Valyria. In that case, they might be referring to the length of the seasonal cycle before then, which they've been keeping track of themselves, and which no longer has any bearing on the state of the world.
- Translation Convention doesn't quite work because they celebrate birthdays at roughly speaking annual intervals.
- The Doom is stated to have been around 400 years before the series starts, but the seasons have been strange for millennia.
- Though "Linked" doesn't necessarily mean "Caused by"
- Maybe they actually do have regular seasons, but when "Winter" comes it causes summer to be shorter and much cooler, and when "Summer" comes, it causes winters to be shorter and much warmer.
- Or they could just look at the stars. If they have similar zodiac-like constellations, it would be a small matter for the maestars to construct a calendar based on which constellation is overhead at midnight, creating a very familiar year-based unit without worrying about the seasons. Since seasons can last decades, they're a rather impractical way of measuring years.
- Based upon the non-Westeros chapters in the books, it would appear, as many have intimated, that the strange seasonal cycles are unique to the continent of Westeros. There is no mention of the impending winter in the Slaver's Bay, for example. Given that Dany speaks with several different people about their food supply, this would certainly come up at some point if it affected them. Since Westeros was conquered and populated by invaders (three times over), they would have logically brought their own calenders with them. The current "year" is likely based upon a Valyrian Calender, which would explain why characters from Westeros and Braavos, for example, are able to compare ages. It is quite possible that the solstices occur in the other parts of the world as they would in our world.
- Then why would anyone live in Westeros?
- That's like asking why people in our world live in deserts, near polar regions, or places prone to earthquakes and hurricanes. Westeros appears to be at least a quarter of the habitable land in the known world, it would be highly unrealistic for no one to live there. Also, it's usually not that bad. The north is hit hardest by winter, and it is the least populated region in all of Westeros. Down in King's Landing or even Dorne, an average winter (short, not severe) probably just means "it gets a little cooler".
- Winter is simply not as major a concern in Essos, especially Slaver's Bay, which is on the southern coast of Essos. If you look at a map with both Westeros and Essos on it, it becomes amply clear why winter is such a pressing problem mainly in Westeros. The northernmost parts of Essos – for example, Braavos and Lorath – are at the same latitude as the northern parts of the Vale or the southernmost parts of the North in Westeros. The severe North-style winters of Westeros are simply not possible in Essos. Possibly some parts of the northern hinterlands do get badly affected in winter, but these regions are sparsely populated anyway, and that too by the Dothraki, who probably just move south for winter. The southern coast – which includes Volantis, Slaver’s Bay and Qarth – most likely has a Mediterranean type climate, so winter probably makes only a nominal difference there.
- It's been stated that the seasons weren't always messed up. The planet and various civilizations were around long enough for the old measure of a year to stick before the cataclysm that changed the seasons happened.
- As far as I remember, the world DOES have regular seasons - I do remember one character remarking that none of the young characters have seen a true winter. The climate does change and they do have seasons (presumably normally) beyond the Great Winter/Long Summers. Methinks the Great Winter is more likely associated with the coming of the Others, who bring the chill with them, not the other way around.
- Winter is coming to Slaver's Bay too. Towards the end of ADWD, Danys notices that the grass in the Dothraki Sea is changing color.
- We got kinda lost with the seasons when answering the question "how do they measure years?" - ok where to start... First of all not everywhere on Earth the seasons are the same and yet we measure the years in the same way. From the ancient times we got really close with solar calendar and moon calendar giving us 10 or 12 months and a year oscillating around 365 days. This always came from sky analysis and not just counting the seasons or harvests. In fact people knew the year was a little shorter than 365,25 days over 100 years BC. The ONLY thing people of Westeros need to do to count years is to watch the sky - the moon, the sun and the stars. And if you wonder about if they actually do it or not here's the hint: Maesters forge the ring of bronze for astronomy.
- The Qartheen believe that the dragons hatched from a second moon that wandered too close to the sun can cracked. This could be an old cataclysm remembered as a legend, and the instability to the planet's axial tilt (and variable season length I could be result of the lost moon's influence permitting outside influences from resonance with other stellar objects. Or as said earlier, magic!
The Night's Watch's Weirdness Censor
- In A Game of Thrones, a group of mostly experienced rangers of the Night's Watch (including officers), find two bodies in the woods in a very strange state of non-decay: their hair pulls out easily and is brittle, their skin is milk-white, they have dried blood on their wounds and even in their veins (these are described as looking like "iron worms" and the blood as black dust.) Oh, and their eyes are blue now although they didn't used to be. But they are not rotting. This group containing experienced fighters and, presumably, hunters (all nobles hunted), notices only that last fact and stands around saying the men must have been recently killed, rather than being royally creeped out by the weird symptoms, and it is Samwell Tarly the wimp who shows his smarts by pointing these out, complete with a detailed description of the different stages of blood drying, which he knows from watching his father gut deer. Way to go Samwell and all, but seriously, does George R. R. Martin (who normally gives us so much realism) really believe that only geeks notice things? Hunters & fighters who don't notice things get killed.
- A possible explanation is that only Sam knows what to look for - the likes of these two men have not been seen in thousands of years. The hunters and rangers may simply have all had a Weirdness Censor that Sam doesn't have because, unlike them, he knows what he is looking at.
- But he doesn't know what he is looking at. He knows what dead deer look like. Something it's pretty likely at least one (and likely all) of these rangers would know too. Hunting wasn't a specialized hobby in times like those.
- Expect that for Tarly the deer being gutted was a fairly traumatic event and the blood stuck in his head for the hunters the blood is just another part of it and not something they'd pick up on.
- They have no explanation for the state of the bodies other than their having been recently killed except for Black Magic, so they rationalize.
- Or all of them think something like: "Man, those corpses freak me out - better not to mention it cause they might laugh at me..."
- In fact, Jon pretty well explicitly thinks (before Sam brings up the oddness) "these guys were killed by the Others and we all know it". But he represses the thought and refuses to accept it, simply because A) the Others "don't" exist and B) they really, really don't want the Others to exist. Sam, being equally scared of the dead bodies as he is of the Others, is the only one who's willing to speak up and point out what they've all been trying to ignore.
Jaime, regret, and Values Dissonance
- Something I read on the character page stuck me: Jaime frets a lot about his killing of Aerys, but one of his very first actions in the series is to try to kill an 8 year old boy. Now, I'm pretty sure, if it was brought up in the series now, he'd rightly feel like crap, but the fact he's cut up more over killing a batshit-crazy king than an innocent kid (well, attempted killing, but still) is a bit odd. What do other tropers reckon? Maybe the fact everyone keeps going on about Aerys? I dunno...
- Jaime isn't cut up over killing Aerys. Throughout the Jaime chapters he frequently makes remarks to himself that sound like it always comes back to Aerys, but what he's upset about is not that he killed Aerys, what bothers him is that everyone treats him as though he has no honor because he is the kingslayer and no one knows or cares that his actions saved Kings Landing.
- Sorry, you're right - I meant that he's cut up about everyone harping on about his killing of Aerys, but I wrote it wrong. It still doesn't answer though his complete dismissal of his attempted murder of a kid. That's a pretty clear indication of "no honour" if you ask me, but he hasn't even mentioned it in his POV chapters.
- He's bothered about him killing Aerys because everybody but him thinks he did the asshole thing. He doesn't care about crippling Bran because if he hadn't, his sister and their children and he himself would have been killed. He's seen horrible things happen to women and children in war, after all, so he doesn't feel it's any different to kill a child than it is to kill a man.
- It may also be because he sees the Aerys incident as the defining moment of his life, the one which has led to the treatment he receives and his own becoming bitter and cynical and so on. He may feel that the killing of Aerys and subsequent reaction is what eventually led to him becoming the kind of man who would toss an eight year old from a window. Even if he does think that was a terrible thing to do (one would hope he does), he probably feels he never would have done something like that if it were not for Aerys, and since he appears to be in the process of reevaluating himself since his injury, he may be choosing to focus on what he sees as the root cause of him being a murderous arsehole and not specific instances of him being so. He no doubt has plenty of other things he could fret over we haven't heard yet. Although really Jaime, I know most people would probably be disinclined to believe you at the time anyway, but maybe if people knew the exact reason you killed Aerys they would have been less derisive of you.
- It's also worth noting that Jaime goes through a hell of a Heel/Face turn in the novels, and from memory he does express regret about Bran later on. I personally feel that the author didn't plan on Jaime being more than a Dragon
- While it isn't an excuse for his actions, it should also be remembered that, on top of Jaime's belief that he, Cersei and their children would all be put to death if the truth was discovered (which we know would have probably been the case), Jaime himself was knighted at an uncommonly young age, and was fathered and raised by the man who ordered the deaths of Rhaegar's infant son and young daughter and then proudly presented their corpses to the new king as if they were some kind of trophy. While having a shitty father obviously doesn't absolve you of your own actions, a large part of who a person is is how they are brought up.
- I think the reason Jaime didn't tell anyone about why he killed the Mad King was because he made a vow to keep the King's secrets. He failed to serve and protect him because they conflicted with his knightly vows, which he deemed more virtuous, as alluded to when he talks to Brienne in the bath, but the last, non-conflicting vow he could keep was the king's secrets, which he did. Which kind of makes his killing of Aerys truly honorable, if he knew he'd be stuck with the crap but did it anyway to the best of his vows.
- You're not taking the settings values into account- Jaime was a Kingsguard. He killed the king he was sworn to protect, and now everybody questions his honor because of it. Breaking such an important oath in this setting is a bigger deal than just killing a young boy. If Jaime hadn't been a Kingsguard, nobody would be giving him any grief over it.
- Post Heel Face Turn, it seems like Jaime also tends to lump all of the bad things that he's done in his life together and think about them as a unit, instead of thinking about all of them separately. He doesn't mention Bran by name very often, but he seems pretty upset about the realization that if you add up all of the things that he's done in his life, most of them are either terrible or pointless. He has a great passage in ASOS where he remembers to watching his hero The Sword of the Morning kill the murderous and evil Smiling Knight, and then sits there wondering how the hell that kid who only wanted to grow up to be The Sword of the Morning wound up turning out to be the Smiling Knight instead.
- What in god's name possessed Yoren to take BITER to the wall? Surely he would be able to tell after a couple of minutes talking to him that he probably was not exactly Night's Watch material. I mean, Rorge I can understand to a degree - a lot of unsavoury people join the Night's Watch - but... Biter!?
- Haven't you read the Jon chapters? The Night's Watch is going to be attacked by an army composed of all the Wildlings from beyond the Wall and they have absolutely no men to fight them off.If you have less than a thousand men to defend what amounts to hundreds or even thousands of miles of Wall, you're going to take anyone you can, even if they're complete sociopaths.
- Um, did the Night's Watch know about this impending attack around the time they sent Yoren out recruiting, which would have been about half-way (or even earlier) through the first book? I was under the impression they only realized why the Wildlings were all disappearing from their villages when they spoke to Craster in A Clash of Kings. And as far as I can recall - I'll admit it's been a while since I've read AGoT - they only found out something odd was going on with the wildlings near the end of A Game of Thrones.
- Not quite—they were already aware even around the beginning of the book that there were reports of bad things happening in the wild, including the mountain people migrating south in numbers they had never seen before, and reports had come from fisherfolk who worked the waters around Eastwatch of seeing White Walkers on the shore. So while they didn't know for certain that an assault was coming, they had plenty of reasons to be concerned about manpower.
- Just because they didn't know an assault was imminent didn't mean they weren't aware of the problems of lack of staff.
- They didn't know about the others but they were fully aware of Mance Rayder becoming King Beyond the Wall and bringing the Wildlings together for something.
- As a military officer cadet undergoing training, I say that the decision to recruit Biter was idiocy for a large number of reasons. Being horribly under-strength isn't reason to accept anyone into armed service. Would you rather have four relatively trustworthy men at your back, or four trustworthy men and another one who you know will try to kill you when he gets the chance? The magnitude of whatever threat you're facing should never alter the answer to that question. Anyone with half a brain could tell that Biter was untrustworthy, and would almost certainly have killed again and deserted at the first opportunity. If he had done so he would likely have cost the Night's Watch a few other men in the process, and they would have been worse off than they were before. However, while Yoren made a stupid choice, it is realistic that many people would simply take whatever resources were offered when faced with the perils of the Night's Watch. Its not as if the Night's Watch is made up of geniuses after all.
- You seem to fail to realize that Medieval-era troops were largely not trained at all, and they basically put a sword in their hand and said "Get to it". Nowadays, we have psych evaluations and rigorous training for everyone who enters the armed services, not just officers... but back then, and even as said time and again in the books, their military policy is "If he has hands, he can hold a sword".
- Even modern armies still can have rudimentary evaluation, if any - if they recruit by conscription. An example is the modern Russian army, where the rule of thumb is "if you cannot prove that you are unfit for service, you will serve; the only thing you need is ability to understand orders". If someone like Biter was conscripted into the Russian army, the only reason they would reject him would be him not understanding what the military commissar says.
- (cont'd) Plus, the world was confident that the Night's Watch wasn't doing anything, and that there was no threat beyond the wall — they had essentially become a dumping ground for criminals, a place to put some of the worst offenders far out of the way. If Westeros took the threat beyond the wall seriously, they would be sending up a lot more qualified soldiers, rather than just criminals.
- in addition to the above, there is training period on the wall prior to taking vows. As the above poster mentioned, The Wall is a sort of dumping ground for the worst criminals. If Biter couldn't be made to work, one of the ice oubliettes at the wall would probably be better at "restraining" him than anything any castle might offer.
- Well with guys like Biter, a good leash ought to do the trick. Other than that, every sociopath on the Wall makes adds another target to draw enemy fire away from the more important of the Night's Watch.
- It was For Science!. Yoren was curious to find out if the Others were edible.
- Perhaps worth mentioning; Biter worked perfectly well for the Lannisters. So long as he could be made not to bite other Crows, he would suffice.
- It says in there somewhere that Yoren was given his pick of the royal dungeons, and the fact that he chose Biter probably gives some hint of the kind of alternatives he was offered. In a world as crapsack as Westeros where people rape, maim, kill, and torture other people on a daily basis, the King's dungeons are the baddest of the bad, and when you take the least bad of the baddest of the bad, what you get still isn't not bad in any way, if you get my meaning. I think the fact that Biter was chosen speaks volumes about how the A So Ia F world works.
- Maybe Yoren simply wasn't interested in judging the qualifications of the recruits. After all, as we have seen, the Night's Watch accepts literally everyone. There's no such thing as not making it into the Night's Watch. Yoren was just following orders, which presumably amounted to "Get anybody who can walk and hold a sword." Any further judgements could be left to his superiors. If he had in fact made it back to the Wall in one piece, the Lord Commander would probably have taken one look at Biter and stuffed him into an ice cell.
- Maybe he intended Biter to be something of an attack dog. Keep him mostly locked up until the free folk arrived then "Sic 'em!"
- Maybe Yoren thought that Biter might be fine elevator cranker material. The Wall elevator is hand-cranked, and it's never explained if the elevetor cranker post is some kind of punishment or dumping ground for someone who's useless at everything else.
- I really liked A Game of Thrones, but the very end really got to me. Okay, dragons are essentially giant lizards with wings, so I'd assume they'd be classified as either birds or (probably) reptiles. So why are the dragons suckling at a human woman's breasts right after their birth, without any conditioning, when that's a distinctly mammalian thing to do? I suspect it might just be a chance to showcase Daenerys's breasts, but it's still irritating.
- Tis a metaphor for childbirth. Maybe dragons are like platypi.
- Perhaps the dragons of this setting are essentially giant lizards with wings and tits. Also, magic. Plus what the other guy said.
- The Targaryens clearly have some kind of magical connection with their dragons. The fact that Dany was able to hatch dragon eggs that no one else could without being taught suggests that the normal rules of logic should be suspended in this case.
- Maybe they're an offshoot of the warm blooded predecessors to mammals in Westeros.
- There are allusions in the book to the strange duality between Targaryens and dragons, as if they could transform from one to the other or one could give birth to the other. The disaster at Summerhall seems to have been an attempt to birth a dragon that instead produced Rhaegar.
- Dragons aren't lizards. Dragons aren't birds. Dragons aren't dinosaurs. Dragons are dragons. Your taxonomic categorization, ser, may go fuck itself.
marry meAgreed. Dragons are very obviously magical and shown to have more than one dietary quirk in common with humans.
- Indeed. Dragons are not simply biological, although they have been implied to be essentially magical or at least elemental. Isn't it repeated throughout the series that 'dragons are fire made flesh'? It might be worthwhile ponder this is more than just poetic language.
- Well said, ser.
- It's cute that everyone wants to defend breast feeding dragons, but it's really not adding up. The only way that maesters can tell a male dragon from a female is if the dragon had been known to lay clutches of eggs. Surely if a dragon has some mechanism for nursing their young then we would have more to go on regarding their gender. Furthermore, there is no indication that dragons even parent their young. In reality, the breastfeeding was just another excuse to call attention to her naked body. Throughout all Daenerys chapters we have to read about sweat dripping between her breasts (rather than down her back or or face like a normal person), how wet she is during the night thinking about Jorah's kiss or Drogo, lesbian sex with Irri, etc. So why not call attention to the milk from her breasts too? We don't know the biology of dragons but we do know GRRM is fixated on her sexuality in his narrative.
Catelyn, Treasonous Houdini
- So, why isn't Catelyn given a tougher penalty for letting Jaime go at the end of the second book? I can understand why she did it, but sacrificing her son's single most valuable prisoner in the middle of a war? Potentially endangering his life even though his well-being is the only thing ensuring her daughters' safety? The same safety which was promised by the transparently devious Tyrion Lannister? As I say, I can comprehend the purpose of her actions, but house arrest seems like a bit of a light sentence for treason, even if she is the North's equivalent of the queen mother.
- All the below have failed to mention the real reason Robb let Catelyn off the hook: Robb used his mother's mistake to his own personal advantage. When she sees Robb next, he has already married Jeyne Westerling, thus breaking the marriage pact to the Freys that Catelyn had been ordered to broker for him. He knew she would be furious with him, but he also knew that she would be afraid of how he would react to her releasing Jamie. In front of his bannerman, where they can't speak frankly (e.g., he praises Edmure's "folly of the fords" in front of the other high lords), he mentions more than once that he understands why his mother did it. "You freed him without my knowledge or consent . . . but what you did, I know you did for love. For Arya and Sansa, and out of grief for Bran and Rickon. Love’s not always wise, I’ve learned. It can lead us to great folly, but we follow our hearts . . . wherever they take us. Don’t we, Mother?” He gets her to agree with these statements and lets her know that he is not angry with her... and then turns the tables on her by introducing Jeyne Westerling as his lady wife. Catelyn even realizes that he just played her like a fiddle: "Follies done for love? He has bagged me neat as a hare in a snare. I seem to have already forgiven him. Mixed with her annoyance was a rueful admiration; the scene had been staged with the cunning worthy of a master mummer . . . or a king." ~~~~
- Which is why a percentage of his army left him. It's a plot point. -wedekit
- Yes it's a vital plot point, but it also well explained in the first two Catelyn chapters of Storm of Swords. No one wants to punish the queen mother so the job gets passed up the food chain to King Robb. However, Robb decides that he needs his mother to forgive him for marrying a Westerling instead of a Frey, and it probably occurred to him that he would need her help in dealing with Walder Frey. He says he knows what it means to commit a folly for love, and with those words Catelyn knows that her pardon comes at the cost of supporting Robb's marriage.
- A tougher penalty was implied as the norm, given Catelyn's expectations to be locked up in chains. But in addition to her her status, personal affection prevented the steward from doing so, and later on Robb used a little tit-for-tat logic to get some forgiveness of his own. It probably would've been better if Robb punished her as she'd suggested, but that's the human drama element.
- Nitpick: Devious Tyrion may be, but he actually did intend to give Lady Catelyn her daughters back, at least as many as he could manage. The reason it couldn't work on his end is because his father forced him to marry Sansa, not due to any scheming on his own part. He didn't even want the marriage himself.
- Whether or not Tyrion was trustworthy in general has nothing to do with whether Catelyn could trust him to trade Jaime for the girls. As she points out, Tyrion swore in open court while he was acting as Hand of the King for his father that he would return Sansa and Arya when Jaime was released. If he goes back on that, it means that the Lannister side will never be able to conduct a prisoner exchange again. Holding onto Sansa isn't worth it.
- Though it's worth noting that Tyrion didn't hesitate to send a special force team (an assassin, a lockbreaker & a mummer) under cover of envoys to break out Jaime while negotiations for hostage exchange were being conducted. This is an utter violation of the neutrality & sanctity of envoys & cast doubts on whether Tyrion really intended to exchange anyone at all, swearing in open court or no. He even thinks about keeping Ser Cleon Frey ride to & fro carrying offers & counter offers to buy time for Tywin to trap the Starks between 2 hosts. Additionally, Tyrion was only an acting Hand. Whether he had the authority to return any Stark hostages without the sanction of the real Hand & Regent (Tywin), & the Queen Mother( Cersei) is debatable. Add to that the fact that no matter what Catelyn thinks, a lone retainer transporting a prisoner in secret to the enemy stronghold is hardly how a true & formal exchange of hostages is supposed to work. You need the faction heads to decide on a neutral ground, & both parties to accompany their hostages to this location simultaneously on a per-arranged date. Otherwise, it's very logical for the Lannisters to claim that either Jaime escaped or this is a sign of capitulation from a sub-faction of the Starks & thus they are under no legal bindings to release any of their own hostages.
- All reports were that Jaime had escaped, as Catelyn herself lamented. So Tyrion married Sansa. A few days later Robb and Catelyn were reported dead. The fault perhaps lies with Jaime for not pushing the matter, though he did try to make up for it later.
- What exactly could Jaime push? By the time he got back to King’s Landing, Sansa had escaped, and half the realm was looking for her. Arya hadn’t been seen since Ned’s death several months/roughly a year ago, and the general and reasonable assumption was that she was dead. Jaime could hardly go looking for his enemies’ daughters himself. He did the only thing that he could, i.e. delegate Brienne to go look for them instead (or at least for the one who was more likely alive), give her a Valyrian steel sword, and back her up with an official document from the king.
- Because she's the mother of the king and the king loves her. The only person who could punish her isn't going to.
Length of the Westerosi Civil War
- I need to know this: Exactly how long has the war been going on? The official faq is saying that it has been going on for about 2 years by the time the war starts and the Red Wedding happens. However, I have recently been rereading A Storm of Swords, and in an Arya chapter she says that she made her first kill (the kid who was trying to capture her when she escaped while her father was being captured, meaning right at the beginning of the war) when she was eight. But then, there is another chapter where she is questioned on her age, and she claims she is twelve. Can someone explain this to me?
- Nevermind, it seems I found my own answer. As it turns out, Arya was actaully 9 and a half when she made her first kill and she was almost 11 when she said she was twelve. Reading over it again, I notice that exacty wording was "'I'm twelve!' she lied loudly," so, goof on my part. Still, I guess she either forgot the exact age she was when she made her first kill, as she is thinking it to herself rather than lying to anyone outloud, which is understandable, or the author really did make a mistake there. Either way, mystery solved.
- She exaggerated how young she was when she made her first kill to seem more badass.
Xanatos Hairnet Roulette
- How could Littlefinger have predicted that Joffrey would actually be in range of Sansa's hair net? It was complete happenstance that he walked over to rub Tyrion's nonexistent nose in it, IIRC.
- It didn't matter whether Joffrey got within range of Sansa's hair or not. Olenna Tyrell pulled the poison out of the net at the beginning of the feast, when she adjusted Sansa's hair.
- And continued sitting right next to Sansa. ...Though I suppose that she could go see to Margaery at any point, and if that's a breach of decorum, then Olenna Tyrell can ruddy well get away with it. Thanks!
- I always assumed that Littlefinger planned for Tyrion to be blamed for Joffrey's murder. He arranged the dwarf jousting to piss off Tyrion, knowing that Joffrey would take the opportunity to mock him and Tyrion wouldn't be able to resist giving a bitingly witty comeback. So, Joff gets mad, comes over to humiliate Tyrion for his insult, gets poisoned by Olenna, who sat next to Sansa for the specific purpose of framing Tyrion. It doesn't take a Magnificent Bastard on Littlefinger's level to figure out Cersei would blame Tyrion for the murder if there was the slightest possibility of him being involved.
- He didn't need to know any of that. He just made sure Olenna Tyrell had motivation to kill Joffrey, and added the Dwarves to make sure everyone at the party got a front-row seat to Tyrion and Joffrey not liking each other. Then, he sat back and let things take their course.
- Or, alternatively, it wasn't really Littlefinger's plan, and huge chunks of the story that he told Sansa were utter B.S. Remember, he told Sansa that he had masterminded the whole plan to kill Joffrey for literally no reason right after he told her that he'd doinked her mom, which was definitely not true.
- It's implied that he was so doped up/injured that he thought Lysa was Catelyn, which means he isn't lying, he's just delusional.
- Okay, yes, that's possible. Considering how obsessed Lysa was with that night, though, it would be pretty odd if she never talked about it afterwards - especially considering all of the unpleasantness that followed it. More to the point, though, his explanation to Sansa of Joffrey's murder was pretty much, "Oh, yeah, that? I totally did it. No, I didn't have any reason. I just felt like it." I mean, that barely sounds like he's trying.
- Except Littlefinger and Lysa have slept together at least twice - Littlefinger claims to have been the first lover of both Lysa and Catelyn. So when Lysa is going on about their time together, it's likely that Littlefinger is thinking of the time he knew it was her.
- I actually don't think it's all that unreasonable for Littlefinger to have figured that Joffrey would go over to Tyrion when you consider that Littlefinger's specialty is making people do exactly what he wants while them still thinking that they are in control. Littlefinger did come up with the idea of the tilting dwarves and I'm willing to believe that Littlefinger planted some seed into Joffrey's head to make him demand that Tyrion tilt with them, or perhaps he just knew that Joff would do that (he's vile but very predictable in many ways). Littlefinger also knows that Tyrion would completely refuse and that would piss off Joff, who'd end up yelling at Tyrion, providing the perfect distraction while Olenna slips the amethyst into whatever beverage container Joff is holding at the time.
- And why exactly would Olenna choose then to assassinate her son in law? Wouldn't it be better to allow Margery to get pregnant with Joffrey's (or supposedly Joffrey's) child and then kill him? Granted it would mean Margaery having to put up with marriage to a psychopath, but she seemed to be enough of a political operator to put up with him for a few months at least (and it's clear Joffrey can contain himself to some extent if he sees that there are political reasons to do so). It would also have avoided all the trouble with Cersei trying to expose her infidelity - of course she wasn't a virgin, she was married to Joffrey for x months!
- Timing. Olenna had no reason to trust the safety of her granddaughter to the whims of an adolescent sociopath, since even if she was willing to risk it, one incident, and the hot-blooded Loras Tyrell would be replicating the deeds of the Kingslayer. Not very good for anyone involved. Do it during the wedding, and you can pin it on... well, basically anyone. Their entire court was at that wedding. Do it anywhere else... well, that would have been a mite bit more suspicious.
- So do it at the kid's Christening (or whatever they call it in Westeros)- don't tell me there won't be a feast to celebrate that. Yes, it means being married to Joffrey for a year (or thereabouts) but since Olenna seems to be a female version of Tywin, shouldn't she just go "Suck it up, bitch!" (or words to that effect) to Margery's complaints (although Margery seems at least moderately successful at controlling Joffrey). Once she's pregnant, she's the mother of the next King/Queen and in position to become the next Cersei. And while she does go on to become the wife of Tommen, marriage to a boy King is chancy in that Tommen might turn out to be the next Edward V or VI (of England) and never reach his majority. Joffrey, for all his many faults, is (presumably) already capable of fathering children.
- I am less willing than you to believe that Olenna would have allowed Margaery to be married to Joffrey for that long. Joffrey is a monster and she killed him specifically so that he couldn't hurt her granddaughter. She may be a master schemer, but I never saw her as cold, at least not in regards to her own beloved granddaughter.
- Again, Loras Tyrell would have stabbed the King if he did anything during said intervening year, such a feast would not have had the entire court in attendance, (the wedding was a diplomatic bridge for the new alliance as well as a royal wedding), and during the intervening year Joffrey might continue to do absurd, stupid shit like he did when he cut off Ned Stark's head on a whim. Not worth the diplomatic risk for anyone involved.
- We're not party to the circumstances of the planning of Joffrey's assassination, since no POV character was involved in it. Could it not be that Littlefinger insisted on the timetable for some reason or another (maybe even so he could pull out Sansa in the confused aftermath)?
- There's also the fact that after the Royal Wedding the Tyrells would be expected to return to High Garden/the battle field. Mace is supposed to take his forces to capture Storm's End. Oleana might be able to hang around the court longer - she's a dowager and has no responsibilities requiring her to leave - but it's far wiser for her to act now when they've got the protection of a city crawling with armed Tyrell forces, just in case things go ass over tea kettle.
The Ubiquity of Stallions
- Why are all the leaders constantly riding stallions in to battle or tourney!? It makes no tactical sense. In a cavalry setting, you're automatically riding with a mixed bag of horses. What if someone's mare goes into heat on the battle field? Also, you'd think one of the cunning generals would have realized that if they want their enemy's leader(s) they should start riding nimble, female horses and lead them off. It seems that only Ser Loras ever thought about that.
- Up until the 1800s, stallions were considered by all to be the only manly way to ride into battle. Mares were considered frail, feminine creatures not fit for a true warrior, and geldings were a reflection of that, although sometimes used as transportation rather than warhorses. Even into the twentieth century, though, high-ranking officers were expected to ride stallions, which were harder to handle while riding, as a symbol of their stature. Seeing as geldings did make appearances as warhorses in other parts of the stories, I don't think it's too far-fetched to assume that GRRM was playing on those same presumptions for his characters' mounts.
- The above is correct, stallions were often regarded as 'superior' horses in the same way that swords were often considered 'superior' weapons, because they were simply thought to be more manly/noble/etc. Tactical knowledge was often lacking during the medieval era, as can be seen in many of Europe's most famous historical battles.
- Not only that, but the OP actually is brought up has having occurred in the first book. It was actually considered a dirty trick since it maddened the other horse.
- It also works as another layer of commentary, as, for example, Sen Bonifer Hasty ("the Good") has all the men under his command ride geldings instead of stallions. Presumably he noticed that they are easier to discipline than stallions. At the same time, he accepts little plundering and no rapes from the men under his command—their reputation is so sterling that people joke he gelds his men as well as his horses, as if not raping people is something unmanly.
- Exploiting the fact that there's so many stallions around is more likely to cause problems on your side than on the other side of the battlefield. It worked for Loras because it was a ritualized one-on-one sport event. You try getting a bunch of horses into a formation while a bunch of them are trying to mount one another, and then imagine what happens when alpha brawls start happening among them.
- And as for why stallions and not geldings, many reasons. One is historical, in that breeding a big damned horse who could even carry an armored knight around took centuries even after horseback combat has come to dominate Eurasia. If you had something that could take a Gregor Clegane into battle, you wanted that thing to be able to breed. Which was a big deal in tourney's too - winning a prize horse also meant winning a prize breeding horse, and only a bastard would geld something like that. Enemy horses were part of the winnings for the victor, being able to breed them was a big deal.
- At the end of one of the Daenerys' viewpoint chapters (in Game of Thrones), Khal Drogo is apparently very gentle, at least to his new wife. And then in the following one, he would "...ride her relentlessly as he rode his stallion." Which is it?
- Yes. No, seriously, why can it only be one or the other? Most people don't confine themselves strictly to gentle sex or rough sex; they go back and forth, depending on their moods. Khal Drogo's preference for horsie-style isn't surprising, considering the emphasis on Testosterone Poisoning in Dothraki culture, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a sensitive side, just that he's not likely to show it. Besides, it's an important moment of Character Development for both Dany and Drogo, showing that there is potential for love and affection in this Arranged Marriage.
- It's both... sequentially. The first time, Dany is very scared and doesn't know Drogo at all. Drogo can see that she's uncertain and terrified, so he asks her if it's okay, and is gentle. Afterward, he figures she's seen that it's not so bad, he can just take his rights. He doesn't think that she might just be saying yes for her brother's sake, and he doesn't think it might be a matter of the sex itself, just that she's nervous about her first time.
- Also consider that sometimes they have sex in view of the entire khalasar. Drogo is essentially saying, "Yeah, you WISH you were this manly." So, he's not going to be gentle there.
- Khal Drogo is the embodiment of manliness and as such he is able to read his wife's inexperience the first time they have sex. Then, he tries to amp things up, and other times he is gentle. If he were really that bad, Dany wouldn't have loved him, which she does, because Drogo is a wild stallion who is able to be gentle with her when he needs to be. He doesn't have to be one or the other; he acts the way he wants with his wife unless the situation demands differently. "Gentle without strength is just wimp." (Davide Shade)
- How exactly do the ravens know where to go?
- It is mentioned that when people are transporting goods to different cities they often have a cage or more of ravens with them. These ravens would then home to the location that they originated from. So, if you were sending a letter from Sunspear to King's Landing, you'd send a King's Landing bird back to its home with the message. You'd then need to be resupplied with birds from King's Landing. The only way to explain the white ravens is that each city raises a white raven for Oldtown then carries it there, or the white ravens are just damn smart.
- Clever Crows (and other corvids, such as ravens) are pretty damn smart birds. If pigeons can figure it out, they certainly can.
- That's not a sufficient answer. (I'm not the original question-asking-person—what do you call that, by the way?) Carrier pigeons are raised in the location they fly to, and only fly to that one location. They need to be carried by someone else to wherever they're going to leave from. The possibilities for the ravens are: A. One fixed route; B. Two or more fixed routes; or C. The ability to synthesize new routes. Evidence for A would be the two cages of ravens that Sam releases— the Shadow Tower cage and the Castle Black cage. That indicates that the ravens function like homing pigeons. Then again, when Stannis is going all-out on his propaganda, he sends out 117 ravens everywhere, without duplicates (if there were duplicates, then it would be only fifty-eight and one half destinations, and in that case, there would be significantly less thorough coverage than Stannis wants). Whereas when Tyrion sends a letter to Dorne, it doesn't raise any alarms that he wants it sent by two ravens, and Pycelle doesn't object that they don't have two Sunspear ravens (not that he actually sends them both out, but...), indicating that either the Red Keep is more amply provisioned than Dragonstone (quite plausible) or the ravens can be directed to go different places. (Or that Stannis doesn't want to waste birds in case he needs to send more messages.) The only thing that I would think indicates that the ravens can synthesize new routes is the white ravens. They are said to be more intelligent than ordinary ravens, though. Intelligent enough to read maps? Maybe not. But maybe they follow an ordinary raven, and that part's not mentioned.
- The original question-asking-person is usually called the original poster or OP, FYI (at least on most sites/boards). As to the matter at hand, I think we're just meant to take it that these ravens are smarter than the average bird (perhaps something like dog-smart or maybe even dolphin-smart). The fact that they can learn to recite a few words, which real-world ravens cannot do, may be meant to showcase this. They even seem to be aware of what the words mean on a basic level, such as Mormont's raven begging for corn, or Sam's ravens saying "Snow" before a snowstorm (could be wrong about that one). Of course, what would be involved in training and using such birds is beyond me.
- Real-world ravens can mimic human speech, FYI.
- It's magic. The raven system could not work as well as it is described in the book. The logistics are impossible. I'm afraid you'll just have to suspend your disbelief on this one.
- Maybe the ravens of the ASOIAF world are smarter than ours.
- A story is mentioned of how the Crone brought the first ravens to Westeros, and with all the warging and fire-related magic going on, the Seven seem a bit left out on the miracle front - maybe this is their contribution?
- A Dance With Dragons fields this; apparently, pretty much every raven in Westeros either contains the second life of a skinchanger or has its intelligence boosted by being ridden frequently by them. The tradition of using ravens as messangers goes back to the time when the First Men frequently interacted with the children of the forest; skinchangers and greenseers would ride ravens and use them to convey messages (actually speaking them upon arrival). While the techniques to control the ravens have been forgotten, the tradition of using them for messages remains (with maesters probably just assuming that ravens have the intelligence to know where to go).
- When the Watch went beyond the wall and Sam was in charge of the ravens they made mention that the ravens were separated by cages. It was indicated that each cage contained ravens that knew how to get to a particular location. It seems like they keep ravens that go between two locations.
- The preview chapter of Winds of Winter actually gives a detailed bit of exposition on this point. Most ravens are trained to fly to one location like real world pigeons; some to fly back and forth between two, and a very few especially smart ones can recognise destinations by name. The thing about all ravens being used to warging with people I believe was only a reference to the ones that live in Bloodraven's cave.
- I think it's just a convenient way for characters to get info.
- It's a plot contrivance. The plot requires that the characters have some quick, reliable means of long-distance communication, but the setting requires that the characters live in a quasi-medieval society, even though quick, reliable means of long-distance communication only exist in relatively modern societies.
- Has Dany ever considered how she plans on making a long lasting new dynasty if she can't have children?
- Who says she cares? And anyway, it's not like the person who told her she can't have children was entirely trustworthy, or all-knowing.
- If Jon Snow turns out to be her nephew, he would be her natural heir. Or if he isn't actually of Targaryen blood, there are other ways to create a line of succession other than heredity. Dany could set up some kind of apprenticeship dynasty, taking in a worthy child and raising him/her to be her adopted heir. Or have an elected monarchy like in Poland and the Holy Roman Empire. Or if you like a rather whimsical solution, she could set up a constitutional republic and be done with the horrible excesses of aristocracy.
- If Jon Snow turns out to be her Trueborn nephew, then he would become King automatically, as he has a stronger claim to the Throne than Dany. If he was still a bastard, but she intended for him to carry on the Targaryen dynasty, then he has to have his baseborn status removed, in which case he automatically becomes the rightful King over her (by being the heir of the last heir). The most sensible solution would be for Jon and Dany to marry and rule together, but Jon could have a polygamous marriage to a second wife (which the Targaryens did practice) in order to conceive heirs.
- There is no situation where Jon would "automatically" become king without being placed in a line of succession first and then inheriting the throne. He's not a contender in his own right, and if he does prove to be Dany's nephew or Aegon's brother his claim is wholly dependent on her army and dragons winning the throne back in the first place. Marriage or co-rule is still in the cards, but no matter how much Westeros loves male-preference primogeniture, no one is going to say "Great job winning the war Dany! Now step aside for this nephew you didn't know you had because he's a boy and so his claim is better." She'd feed them to a dragon.
- Considering her age (fifteen), she seems to lack the maturity to fully understand what it means to rule. Until the end of A Storm of Swords, her plan was to reclaim Westeros in the name of her family as soon as she could, and that was pretty much all the detail there was to that plan. No thought of what she'd do then or why she really should. If I remember correctly, she didn't even think about opposition until it was pointed out to her. And it wasn't until after she had conquered three cities and saw that the first two could not keep their peace that she realized some of the consequences to her actions. It looks like she may mature a bit more now that she's taken a break from warring to actually rule these cities. However, she still shows signs that she's a teenage girl in that, when thinking about who could be one of the other two 'dragon heads', she fancies choosing a handsome, flirtatious man rather than someone better qualified to help her rule, which leads to another point regarding Dany and possible heirs...
- She has three dragons, and a Targaryen saying goes "the dragon has three heads". Since the dragons hatched, she's thought about who could be worthy enough to ride the other two. It's possible that she thinks that one or both of these people will be her heir in name rather than blood. But, really, I think it's that she's still too immature to have thought things through.
- This all assumes that she truly is barren forever, which is by no means definitely true. From her perspective, I suspect she figures it's something she'll deal with when the time comes (but she has more pressing problems now); from an external perspective I doubt she's actually barren.
- This is also assuming that she can't adopt and legitimise a child, or nominate an heir; this sort of thing happens in the real world to ruling monarchs without children, and assuming her plan succeeds and she becomes queen, who's going to argue with her? She gets to make the laws.
- I think she plans to save the succession until after she is on the throne. It's not like she doesn't have several options, adoption or naming an heir being chief amongst them.
Gender Ratios in Noble Houses
- All the noble houses seem to have disproportionately more sons than daughters. As just one example, Walder Frey has 22 sons and just 7 daughters.
- Many might have already married off or sold their daughters to other houses at younger ages, while the boys have more time to grow.
- They'd still be listed in the appendices, which is where I got those numbers.
- Death by Childbirth, perhaps.
- Because of the military focus of the series, sons bulk out lists of people on the battlefield. Since daughters tend not to be on the field, they only get mentioned (and added to the appendices) if they're actually mildly important.
- Or Walder Frey takes the continuance of the family name to objectionable levels...
- As an aside, Westeros' gender imbalance is nothing compared to some fantasy worlds. Doing the math in the Appendices of Tolkein's works Middle Earth is something like 80% male and The Hobbit is notorious for have no female characters even mentioned.
- Speaking of The Late Lord Frey...why, why, would any sane monarch leave such a strategic stronghold in any hands but those of the throne itself? When the Targaryens had their dragons, they could have told the Freys: "Okay, fun's over... we're taking this castle (the Twins) over in the name of the kingdom. We'll give you other castles, but this one we have to hold." If that castle had been held by the Targaryens themselves, Robert Baratheon's revolt would have been nipped in the bud, or at least confined to the north until the Targaryens could mount a really good counter-attack (possibly after arranging an accident for Mad King Aerys.)
- Because they had Dragons. Fiery death machines that could fly over the land without any trouble at all. Dragons could literally take out entire armies, so there was no need to keep the twins for safety measures.
- They were too busy holding the Red Keep (citadel for what seems to be the largest city and a major port) and Dragonstone directly. They wouldn't have been too worried about any fortresses while they had dragons, and arbitrarily revoking titles wouldn't make them popular. So long as they could make like Harrenhall and melt fortresses they wouldn't need to upset everyone like that, and afterward they wouldn't dare.
- Another idea: Are the Twins really that strategically valuable at all? A quick look at this enormous and beautiful map of Westeros◊ shows that the Twins are off to the side, west of the Kingsroad and bridging the Green Fork river of the Trident. Presumably, the Green Fork is very difficult to cross, which makes the rare crossings like the Twins very valuable property as far as charging tolls and the like. But as it happened, the Jaime Lannister's army was west of the Twins, in the Whispering Woods, while Robb's army was east. Using the Twins' Crossing was the only way Robb's army could catch up with him, and from a direction the Kingslayer wouldn't suspect. So in this one instance, the Late Lord Frey knew he had Robb over a barrel and squeezed him for everything he was worth for permission to ford his army. On the other hand, the most valuable real estate in the North would be Moat Cailin, which stands directly on the northern Kingsroad and along a very narrow and highly defensible isthmus. When tensions flared, the first thing Eddard Stark did was dispatch 200 archers to Moat Cailin, confident that that would be enough to hold off almost any force the Lannisters (or even the Crown) could raise on short notice.
- Rivers are very, very big and often quite difficult to cross. Also, traveling on a river is faster than travel by foot or horse. Fords and other river crossings have always been vigorously sought and defended throughout history. So the Twins is a river crossing on a very important river. Further, it's a stronghold in the middle of a narrow stretch of land, meaning that it has strategic importance as a place that can manipulate the entire region. Finally, being on the river itself means that it has easy access to resupply, making it difficult to besiege. A castle is never just a castle, it's like an aircraft carrier; it projects force a distance from itself and you ignore it at your peril.
- Why? Let's take a page from Dune, which has a similar social structure to Westeros. Remember why it's a big deal that House Harkonnen has Sardaukar support when they retake Arrakis? Because every noble house fears the Sardaukar being unleashed on them. They know they can't stand against the Sardaukar on their own, which is why they banded together (as "the Landsraad") for mutual protection. The same is true in Westeros... except this time in the other direction because the Targaryens don't have Elite Mooks, and haven't had dragons for a century either. If King Aerys (or whoever) just arbitrarily declares, "I'm removing Walder Frey from his ancestral seat at The Twins," he not only has to remove Lord Frey (by force), but he risks every lord in Westeros saying, "Uh-oh, that could be me," and, say, declaring a rebellion. How many high lords does it take to screw a new king into the Iron Throne? When the king was Robert, it only took four.
- To answer the original question: because it's a feudal system. Functionally, it isn't "in the hands of the throne itself" unless you decide to park the throne on it and govern directly. By the conventions of the land, removing the Freys and placing a new vassel to control the Twins just means that you've got exactly the same situation, except the names are different. For all the effort it takes, you might as well leave the Freys so long as they are loyal because otherwise, unless you wipe them out comletely, you're going to create unnecessary aristocratic tensions between the Freys and the new guys for generations (like what happened in the Reach, which was much more relevent to control because it was a breadbasket, and because the original owners didn't yield).
- I think you're looking at this backwards - it's implied that the reason Frey can get away with being so backstabby in the first place is the fact that he holds such an important territory. He has a very defensible and valuable location, but not much military force, so he goes in for treachery in the confidence that no-one will want to call him out on it.
- Look at it this way- let's say that at some point in the past the Targaryens had made The Twins part of the throne's direct holdings. Of course, the king is in King's Landing, so he'd have to send one of his relatives to rule it. Now, I seem to remember lesser Targaryen siblings having this problem with rebelling...
- And it's an ongoing theme in the series that even those characters with armies at their beck and call have to make political compromises with people they may not entirely trust. Having dragons enabled the Targaryens to conquer the Seven Kingdoms, but to rule it they needed to parcel out the goodies to their lesser vassals, else they'd do nothing but fly around Westeros all the time trying to stamp out dissent. Someone has to gather the taxes and harvests for you, so you need lesser lords whose loyalty you can buy through putting them in a position where they can make themselves wealthy — the gold mines of Casterly Rock, the toll bridge at the Twins, the vineyards of the Arbor and the fertile lands of the Reach.
- It also should be noted that the Targaryens did seem to think of the Freys as trusted vassals. Remember, the Freys only joined the rebellion when it became obvious that the Targaryens would lose and a number of the Frey children bear Targaryen names (Aenys, Aegon, Rhaegar), suggesting that they did have a connection to the Targaryen house, though probably not a blood one.
- Because in a world without instant communicatons (although the raven system seems implausibly efficient), you need to leave somebody in charge wherever you're not. They need to be people whose interests align with your own. This is where Tywin was awesome (and Cersei was not) - nobody may have loved Tywin, but everyone knew it was dangerous to go against him (and the Red Wedding was Tywin's idea, not Lord Frey's, we are to believe). Cersei cannot trust anyone and so wanted weak people in authority so she could control them easily - unfortunately, that generally means they were also pretty useless in their actual jobs.
- Because power in Westeros is incredibly decentralized and no King seems to have made much of an attempt to centralize it. Nevermind asking about why they didn't seize the Freys, ask why they allow all of their Lords-Paramount to have larger domains with more men sworn to them than the Crownlands.
- The Twins in their location would be an extremely valuable position. It would take an army an extreme amount of time to go around north or cross at any other point, especially if the waters were high. What's more, the castle itself is damn near unbeatable. You try and lay siege to one side, they simply retreat to the other. Now you have to cross that long bridge to get to them. Sure you hold one castle, but they have an open line on their side and can just wave at you while they wait out the war or you try a fruitless assault. Meanwhile they have patrols making sure you aren't trying to find another way across and preparing in the event you do. The Targaryans were a bit shortsighted by ignoring such a valuable castle due to their air superiority, but they also weren't anticipating a sudden lack of dragons either.
Strategic Value of the Eyrie
- So, counting the above discussion, particularly the last point. What makes the Eyrie such a valuable castle? Since it has no force projection, as it does not have a garrison, and is very difficult to enter or exit even if you're welcome. The only benefit of it, is that cannot be sieged, since it can't be starved out, and storming it is nigh impossible. The defense of the Vale seems to most be important at the Bloody Gate, so why waste men defending a castle that cannot be assaulted?
- Because it's pretty much immune to being conquered, and it's the regional capital. It's easy to bottle an army up in it, but the war isn't over until you actually conquer it. The Bloody Gate is also important because of its strategic location, but to actually hold the Vale in any security you need to dig the Arryns out of the Eyrie. If it weren't the capital, an invader could simply build another castle at the foot of the mountain and wait until they convinced someone to give them the order to surrender, but it is the capital. In short, it's important for reasons unrelated to strategic value, and also is nearly impossible to take.
- And, for the entire duration of the series so far, the Lord of the Eyrie and Protector of the Vale by hereditary descent (i.e., Robert Arryn), has been holed up in it. Short of abandoning feudal inheritance rules, which would require a royal decree, any challenger would have to kill Robert first, and because the Eyrie is immune to conquest, they can't do it by force. It's made fairly clear in the AFFC scene where Littlefinger meets with the other Lords who want to take Robert out of the Eyrie—if Littlefinger lets Robert out of the Eyrie, his control over it becomes worthless and no one will care about his claim to the Vale.
- However, what value is such a castle? If you can take everything else around it and simply maintain a garrison surrounding the only entrance/exit, you can own the whole world and the lord of the castle doesn't mean much if all he owns is the castle itself and none of the surrounding lands. Basically, all one would have to do is leave a garrison large enough to hold the bloody gate from the Eyrie's inhabitants and go about conquering everything else in the meanwhile. Eventually they have a choice of surrendering or going stir crazy.
Strategic Value of the Shadow Tower
- Why does the watch use Shadow Tower instead of Westwatch-by-the-bridge? Shouldn't they use the castle that best guards the edge of the wall next to milkwater river?
- Westwatch is separated from the rest of the wall (and the rest of the Seven Kingdoms), by the Gorge. So wildlings would need to cross the Bridge of Skulls that spans the Gorge to get into Westeros proper anyway. The Nights Watch decided to just garrison the Shadow Tower and defend the other side of the bridge, rather than garrison a tower that could be easily isolated from reinforcements by someone destroying the bridge.
- They do use it. It's stated in the tabletop RPG's Night Watch (for what that's worth) sourcebook that it's a towerhouse above the bridge that spans the Gorge, and only houses a dozen men, who are rotated in and out by the main garrison at the Shadow Tower. It's only a "castle" in the same sense that Sky in the Vale is a "castle", and isn't even on the Wall to begin with- it's a fortification on the natural border provided by the Gorge.
Bullying a Direwolf
- Do most people in the seven kingdoms just not get the concept of a direwolf? There's an absurdly large number of instances where people seriously antagonize or threaten the Stark children without seeming to realize that their direwolves are right there. It makes sense when they're relatively small, but Ghost's eyes are level with Tyrion's chest before Eddard even reaches King's Landing and Summer has killed someone.
- Honor Before Reason.
- Or maybe Bullying a Dragon is a traditional passtime.
- I don't think they'd go and antagonise a wild direwolf, but a tamed one following obediently (usually) at its owner's heels would likely be perceived as a somewhat exotic dog. They were all well trained apart from Shaggydog, and I don't recall anyone ever being blasé about him.
- Also, if any of the Stark children ordered their wolves to attack someone they'd probably get charged with assault (or the Westeros equivalent). Just because you happen to have a gun doesn't mean you can shoot anyone who insults you, to make a modern comparison. Just remember what happened to Lady...
Ubiquity of Valyrian Steel
- So everyone in the book keeps going on on how Valyrian steel is very rare, and there's very little of it left in the world. But Ned Stark has one, Jon Snow has one, and very early in the book someone attempts an assassination with a dagger of Valyrian steel that was cheap enough to be given away in a bet... and STILL Tyrion has to remark on how unusual it is when the King's Father wants to give a sword of Valyrian steel to the upcoming king for his coronation??? Shouldn't the king's armory have most of the steel that's left in the world anyway? Shouldn't King Robert have had a few Valyrian steel swords his son could inherit?.
- Ned's and Jon's both belongs to the heads of some of the most powerful houses in Westeros (Stark and Mormont respectively). Your clearly not far enough in the book to know this, but the dagger was given away by a very wealthy person, and that is actually a hint on who could have possibly done it. And even if the king does have some valyrian steel stowed away, for Tywin, it was a matter of pride that Joffrey had one from the Lannister line, rather than just from the Baratheons.
- The Valyrian steel in the Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail both come from Ice. The steel is often recycled by maesters that are able to work it.
- Also, it was in a bet between the King's Master of Coin and one of Tywin Lannister's children. So, in other words, two of the richest men in the Seven Kingdoms.
- The Lannisters had lost their own Valyrian steel sword generations before in Valyria. At least one attempt was made in recent generations to recover it, unsuccessfully.
- Tywin had also tried to buy the ancestral Valyrian weapons of lesser, impoverished houses, who would gladly have married a son or a daughter to one of his house, but whereas there are more kids every time you look, it seems there are fewer and fewer Valyrian steel swords in the world with every passing year...
- "a dagger of Valyrian steel that was cheap enough to be given away in a bet" Yeah, because nobody ever put up expensive things (or lots of money) in a bet. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me that there are gambling tournaments with multi-million dollar pots or something...
- And considering that the bet in question was between the Master of Coin and the King, yeah, I can believe that they'd bet priceless weapons. It's the equivalent of two multimillionaire playboys betting a yacht or something in a high stakes poker game.
- Also, a dagger is not a sword—you're talking about a much smaller amount of steel, and something that is basically a sidearm, not a weapon of war, making it likely an order of magnitude less valuable both in real life, and in terms of prestige.
- The dagger from the start of the book was probably given away without it's rarity being known. The character in question is also not known for being very smart, so they wouldn't have known the implications of giving it away.
- It is mentioned there are about 200 Valyrian Steel blades in Westeros. I would estimate there were over 200k men fighting in the War of the King Fives. That's not common. As for why there were none in the royal armoury the book itself tells you: Lords hang onto their ancestral blades harder than they do to their daughters. It also seems like swords tend to be taken by the people who killed the previous owner if they get transferred at all.
Logical Leaps in the Lannister Lineage
- How, exactly, does Ned figure out that Jaime is the father of the royal children? I can see how he discovered that they were not Robert's, all Baratheon-Lannister unions having Baratheon looks. But to immediately jump to that conclusion? I mean, it may well be that he was just guessing based on his dislike and then Cersei admitted it, but I don't quite see that last bit of the jump. why didn't he guess it was a stable boy, or some random kitchen staff? Why Jaime?
- It's more than just that. There are other clues as well. First of all, Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen all look like Lannisters, so the idea of Cersei having an affair with a non-Lannister seems questionable. Then, there was Bran's fall. Ned suspected the Lannisters were behind it and Bran saw something that he shouldn't have seen. Conveniently, Jaime was one of the only men who hadn't gone hunting that day. Third, Ned knew as well as anyone that Cersei and Jaime were very close and that as a member of the Kingsguard, he'd have plenty of excuses to spend time around her. Finally, there's Jon Arryn's mysterious death (that Lysa claimed the Lannisters were also responsible for) and Stannis' departure from King's Landing... Put that all together, and it becomes apparent that something very wrong was going on.
- OP here. Some of that does help, like Jaime not being out hunting, but the "non-Lannister partner" thing was actually one of the unsettling points. If every time a Lannister married the children looked like the other party, how could theirs be the typical Lannister appearance? This definitely does alleviate my head-scratching, but for whatever reason I still feel like a tiny note is missing.
- First off: it's not that "Lannister + [other party] = kids that automatically look like [other party]"; it's that, in Westeros as on Earth, pale-hair genes are recessive to darker ones; black trumps brown trumps gold trumps red. (Where the Targaryen coloring would fall on this scale is unknown, but presumably they're way down at the recessive end, which is why Aegon used Brother–Sister Incest to "keep the bloodline pure".) Also, the Lannisters are an old family, and probably marry from within the Westerlands most of the time, where their influence (both political and genetic) has had 8,000 years to percolate. To keep the "Lannister look," Report Siht Lannister needs a blonde wife... which are likely are likely a dime a dozen 'round Lannisport and Casterly Rock. And, if that's not good enough, do what Tywin did and marry your cousin.
- Indeed. Early in the second book Tyrion ponders on the connection himself and notes that Cersei would have been able to keep this truth hidden if only she'd borne Robert one child (note that all Robert's bastard children had his hair), before simply concluding that if she'd done that, she "wouldn't be Cersei". All the factors added up and the smarter characters came to the logical - and true - conclusion.
- To explain further, in order for a child of Cersei (pure recessive blond) and Robert (dominant black) to come out blond, it would mean that Robert would have to carry the recessive trait, even though it was suppressed. That would mean that not only should at least some of his bastards be blond, but the odds of ALL THREE of his legal kids being blond was highly unlikely (with only a 25% of any given child being blond, the odds of all three being blond is around 1.6%, about 1-in-64). But with EVERY SINGLE BASTARD he produced coming out dark, it argued in favor of him actually having full dominant dark hair, meaning no true born child of his would EVER come out blond. Westerosi obviously don't know the literal science behind figuring that sort of thing out, but they likely know enough from circumstantial experience to puzzle out that something's up.
- It's also mentioned at least a couple times that the Lannister family's relatives, descendants, and cadet branches are all over the westerlands including an entire other branch of the family running Lannisport, making golden hair quite common in those parts.
- Also, it may well be that Ned had help coming to that conclusion - it is fairly heavily implied that a lot of House Lannister at least have suspicions (Tyrion has known for years and Kevan hints to Cersei that he does). It is even more heavily implied that Varys and Littlefinger already knew.
- And let's not forget that Ned has one huge factor in his favour — Jon Arryn had already done the legwork (quite possibly with more bases for suspicion than we become aware of). Who knows if he would have been able to put it together himself, but he was guided by the question "What did Jon Arryn think he knew?" It needed to be something big and damning, something a person might kill to protect. Once he realizes that it concerns lineage and the king's offspring, it doesn't take a genius.
- To answer the question of "How Ned figured out Jaime was the father" as opposed to "How Ned figured out Robert was not the father", it's possible that after he figured out Robert was raising someone else's kids he sat down, mentally took note of what he knew about Cersei, and ran through a list of likely candidates. Who does she spend time with? Who does she trust? Its possible he had a eureka moment where he recalled seeing some innocuous action between two people that gives you that feeling that "Hey, those two are fucking!" between Jaime and Cersei that he had previously written off because they were twins. How much Joff looked like Jaime might have helped clue him in, too, not that that means a whole lot given that Jaime and Cersei are twins.
- This is kinda backed up by hints in later books that Jaime and Cersei weren't nearly as discreet or subtle as they should have been or thought they were. Tyrion knew the whole time. Varys, Littlefinger, and Pycelle all knew. Kevan, if he didn't know from the start, apparently suspects that it's true after Stannis declares it publicly, which would suggest that there's something about their behavior together that does give the impression of two people in a sexual relationship that others might write off because they're twins. And of course, Stannis of all people was apparently the first person outside of the Lannisters to figure it out; he claims to Renly and Catlyn that he had gone to Jon Arryn with his suspicions and that was the reason Jon had been investigating it in the first place. Stannis doesn't elaborate on what tipped him off, but one would think it would be something fairly obvious, given the difficulty Stannis has in relating to other people. They're really just lucky that Robert was too drunk to notice and that their father was too busy trying to see what he wanted his children to be that he couldn't see what they were.
- I also want to point out that when Eddard was studying the outrageously dull book with the Lannister lineage described, he notes that the recessive blonde hair is present in every Lannister child for many generations back, even when they were married outside the family. That is, all Lannisters are the offspring of incestuous cheating. That's how there can be a "Lannister look," they never have any outside blood.
- Not only would that not prove they're all incest babies, that is the opposite of what the book says. It's explicitly pointed out that all the children of Lannister/Baratheon pairings have the Baratheon look; black hair, blue eyes. Doesn't really get into the other Lannister pairings. If that were what the book said, it would actually be strong evidence for the kids being legit; Westeros doesn't have the science to know about dominant and recessive genes. Only that some traits show up more often than others. Ned would simply assume that Lannister traits were dominant over other families, not that the Lannisters were getting Targaryan behind their spouses' backs.
- The Lannisters can't be solely based on incest - leaving aside that they would mostly be horrifically deformed, Tyrion makes it clear that he views Cersei's and Jaime's relationship with distaste, which would make no sense if they were all incestuous. Kevan also hints that he knows to Cersei, which again would make no sense if all of them were incestuous. Also, Kevan is married to Dorna Swyft, and in his fatal POV chapter before he dies, makes it clear she is the real mother of his kids and that he loves her deeply.
- Horrifically deformed? You mean, like a crippled dwarf with heterochromia? ;) Jokes aside, Ned knows that Jaime and Cersei are close (them being twins and all). Maybe their children has some trait that makes them look really similar to Jaime (remember, he and Cersei are not identical twins, since they're brother and sister) and that with the other evidence makes Ned draw the right conclusion. Also, any civilization that knows how to breed animal knows about dominant and recessive traits. They don't have to know about genes to know about breeding.
- It should be noted that Ned doesn't know for certain that Jaime and Cersei are lovers until Cersei herself admits it. He makes a guess, judging by the fact that all her children have beautiful Lannister hair and that Cersei and her brother seem unusually close, but he isn't 100% until he says to Cersei, "Your brother...or your lover?"
- It should also be noted that the incestuous nature of Joffrey's parentage isn't really the important point in all of this. It wouldn't matter if Cersei had birthed children by Jaime or anybody else. What makes it such a huge deal is not who the royal childrens' father really is, but who he really isn't. Illegitimate royal children would be certain to cause a succession crisis, and almost certain war between the Lannisters and the rightful Baratheon heirs, and that is exactly what ends up happening. What is important to Ned is the fact that Cersei bore another man's children. The fact that the father is her own brother, while majorly icky, is kind of beside the point.
- It also probably helps that centuries of Targaryen incest would make the whole idea of a brother-sister love affair far less unthinkable than it would otherwise be.
Varys is okay with offing Dany?
- It's been a long time since I've read A Game of Thrones, but something struck me when I finished reading the last book - in A Go T Varys is spying on Daenerys through Jorah Mormont. Not only that, he actually was OK with Robert Baratheon's plan of killing her off. Now, why would he want her killed (he actually sent a poisoner) when it's later revealed that he and Illyrio were conspiring all along with the idea of Daenerys and Aegon uniting?
- Bear in mind that Varys and Illyrio's plan has been changing month-to-month, and it's still unknown what they actually want. Varys might be calculating that killing Dany might be just the thing to provoke Drogo into invading Westeros, which might be what he really wants.
- Well... then he's quite the hypocrite, since he says he's "working for the realm" and unleashing a devastating horde of BloodKnights upon it is kind of counter-productive. But yeah, I guess him and Illyrio are constantly improvising. Bonus points for him if the attempted murder is actually a hoax.
- At the end of ADWD, it is very clear that Varys genuinely wants a Targaryan back on the throne. He supported it in court to keep up appearances in front of Robert, and it's likely that either: He set up the poisoner knowing he'd fail, or Littlefinger was the one to arrange everything.
- Of course, that is if you believe that Aegon is actually Rhaegar's son and not the mummer's dragon from Dany's House of Dying visions. It seems that even more important than having a Targaryen on the throne is having a king with a certain "King Arthur" like education who would be willing to work for the realm, not himself.
- And Aegon the Puppet is not a such king. He's Joffrey Mk.II. As about Varys' true motives and end goal, we know nothing of them yet. Varys is a liar, and his words can't be trusted in the slightest. Particularly Evil Gloating.
- I wouldn't put "Aegon" in the same league as Joffrey, the worst of his name, yet; he just seems a little bratty. However, it is interesting that Dany and Jon - even with their mistakes - have more positive qualities as leaders than the heir trained in selfless rule. It's Fridge Brilliance.
- I had more trouble working out his plan for Viserys. If he wanted him to build up power and conquer Westeros, then "use the Dothraki" in itself is a terrible plan, because they won't cross the sea willingly and if they did they'd utterly butcher the realm in the process, so that seems unlikely. If he'd noticed the Taint and wanted him to die, there must be easier ways of getting it done (though this might explain the assassins). If, as seems most likely, he wanted to keep him out of the way until Aegon could be installed, leaving such an arrogant and unstable guy in the hands of the Dothraki seems like an unnecessarily dangerous place to keep him. The utterly unpredictable way it's actually played out is probably close to the best-case scenario in terms of putting a Targaryan on the throne - use the Dothraki to extort some major cities in Essos and recruit sellswords and ships to take you west. Possibly he knew about the dragon eggs and the "three heads" prophecy and was originally hoping for Aegon to hook up with Dany and Viserys?
- If you believe that Blackfyre theory (i.e.Varys is a Blackfyre loyalist), it makes more sense. Varys was using Viserys and Dany as pawns. The Dothraki were supposed to be the vanguard of the attack on Westeros. They'd utterly devastate the small folks and Westeros would hate Dany and Viserys for invading with such a brutal force. Enter valiant Aegon and the Golden Company, who would clean up the mess. Aegon would ascend to the throne as the hero who saved Westeros from the Dothraki. Viserys and Dany would either end up dead in the invasion or valiant Aegon would execute Viserys for war crimes and marry Dany to cement his claim. Unfortunately for Varys, Viserys was too dumb to live and died before he was supposed to.
- We never actually see anyone poisoned by the wine. Maybe Varys actually sent unpoisoned wine and convinced the seller and Jorah that it was poisoned, counting on Jorah being in love with Dany. So, his plan was for Jorah to stop the assassination, provoking Drogo into attacking Westeros.
- Or, despite being a Targaryen loyalist, he recognizes that Viserys would be a totally inept ruler, unlike Dany, so he sends Viserys to the Dothraki to get him killed.
- No one sent Viserys to the Dothraki. Viserys insisted on going himself, Illyrio tries to talk him out of it and he goes anyway. You could argue reverse psychology here, but the fact was he was deadset on going with Khal Drogo from the start.
- Keep in mind that Varys had no way of knowing that Dany would come up with three real dragons. Even if you throw the Seven Kingdoms into chaos, you still have to conquer them. A Dothraki army, brought across the Narrow Sea by sellsails or allies, was the only practical way of doing so. House Martell and others sympathetic to the Targaryen cause would only take on the Lannisters, Starks, Tullys, and Baratheons if they had a good chance of winning. Ten thousand mounted warriors would throw the odds in their favor.
Arya's Coin Kill
- Maybe I'm just entirely missing the point, but how did Arya kill the old insurer in Braavos for the Faceless Men? The chapter mentioned something about a cutpurse, a heart attack, and a "valar morghulis" coin...
- Remember the prologue of Feast for Crows? Pate died after he bit down on the gold coin the stranger gave him, likely because it had a veneer of poison on it. The Ugly Child observed that the old insurer bit down on every coin he counted. All she had to do was replace a poisoned gold coin with one from the person she "robbed," and when he handed it to the insurer he would bite it and die.
Faceless Man Business Model
- I'm guessing this is explained somewhere, but I was wondering that if Faceless Men believe death is a gift/good thing, why they won't kill anyone upon request. Also, kind of wondering what they do with what must be fabulous wealth (by repute, they are very expensive to hire). They have a nice temple, but there's got to be more to it.
- Maybe they're closely associated with the Iron Bank that became an important plot point at the tail end of Dance with Dragons. If you are going to be ruthless with collecting debts as the Iron Bank is, it would be important to have skilled assassins... wouldn't it?
- It isn't for us but for the God of Many Faces to decide who deserves the Gift. In aCoK, Arya got her three deaths by making a direct trade with the God, from Jaqen's perspective. They're expensive... but not necessarily in gold.
- Remember too that the Kindly Man offered Arya Stark a number of other life choices including being a high-class courtesan, or marriage to a husband at any level of society she wished. This implies that their cult has a great deal of influence, which they would get through a combination of wealth, fear, and tradition (given that their guild existed when the Bravossi were still slaves, long before there was a Braavos).
- So Samwell Tarly's dad considered him an Inadequate Inheritor for not being badass enough, but bore him no hard feelings otherwise (or at least not enough to simply murder him outright), and so he got him out of the way by sending him off to the Night's Watch, who forswear all lands, titles, and inheritance, and are a group of PROFESSIONAL BADASSES. WTF? Why would he send him there as opposed to, say, the Maesters, who ALSO forswear all lands, titles, and inheritance, but are a bunch of peaceable advisers and scholars? Wouldn't that have been far more up Sam's alley?
- He obviously wanted to go with the option more likely to leave his son dead. Further, it's not like Sam thinks of himself as much more suited to being a maester than the Black — the cutting up of dead and all that. Lastly, and probably most importantly, the maesters train in close proximity to his family's holdings, and the whole point was to get Sam far, far away.
- He wanted to get rid of the kid in a way that gave himself (and the general concept of "honor" on the whole house, I suppose) enough ass-cover to at least allow for the pretense that he wasn't just plain disinheriting him. Also, making him swear service to an order that requires lifelong service on penalty of execution effectively means he can't ever try to come home again, much less try some sort of revenge (not that that was likely, but you never know). After that, I think he just figured whatever happened to Sam or didn't was someone else's problem. If he'd cared at all about scholarly pursuits or his son's sensitive feelings, or the idea that one's son even has a right to sensitive feelings or his own desires at all, he'd never have sent him away in the first place.
- Sam actually mentions that he had some interest in becoming a Maester (minus the dead body part) but his father forbade him to join the Maesters because Maesters serve other lords. Sam says Lord Randyll told him "The life of a maester is a life of servitude. No son of House Tarly will ever wear a chain. The men of Horn Hill do not scrape and bow to petty lords."
- Randall Tarly didn't just forbid it; he actually chained his son up in the dungeons at Horn Hill when Sam got up the courage to propose this solution to his father. Basically telling him if it is chains you want then I'll give you them. A Feast For Crows infers that this is why Sam is so against going to Oldtown, not cutting up dead bodies. Cutting up dead bodies is the excuse that he gives Jon.
- Randall would not accept any son that wasn't a badass. The way he saw it, the Night's Watch would be Sam's last chance- he'd either finally become a warrior there, or die. He'd rather his son get killed than not live up to his expectations.
- Not all men of the Night's Watch are rangers. Someone's got to clean the stables, cook the food, mend the clothes, and so on.
- Furthermore, if he wanted to make sure that Sam would never be able to interfere with him or his chosen son again, the Wall was a much safer bet. Once a Maester finishes his training, he is usually assigned to a Lord's house. And even though they hold no formal power, maesters can still influence their Lords, and thus Sam could conceivable try to work against his father. No such problem at the Wall. He is going to stay there until his death, and even if he is one of the few to do business south, he still has almost no way to influence politics.
- He threatens to murder Sam (via a Hunting "Accident"), but Sam 'volunteering' for the Wall enables Randall to kill his hated weakling son without breaking the taboo against kinslaying.
- And if he doesn't die, well then maybe he's at least a little tough, and not a complete disappointment.
- Another point is that the Night's Watch isn't seen as a group of professional badasses, at least not south of the Neck. They are the losers, the second sons, the also-rans, the castoffs, and the has-beens.
History Writers Have No Sense of Scale
- It's mentioned that the Stark family is 8000 years old, and presumably this applies to the other great houses. Because Westeros practices primogeniture, this means that these families have not failed in the male line for about 2000 years longer than all of human civilization. I understand that Westeros has some kind of temporal stasis, but this doesn't seem possible. Furthermore, there's no way that the Stark crypt is large enough to contain eight millenia's worth of leaders, and the chances of ancestral castles and artifacts surviving that long is slim to none.
- This is discussed in the books themselves. Sam talks about how unreliable the history that they have is, and that the Maesters seriously doubt the given time scale.
- It's possible that female descendants kept the name if they were the inheritors of Winterfell. See Maege Mormont and her daughters - Maege didn't take her husband's name because she is Lady of Bear Island in her own right and whichever daughter inherits will almost certainly do the same.
- And as for the crypt: Theon mentiones in ADWD that there are many more levels beneath the crypt now in use, some already partially collapsed, so theoretically, yes, there could be room for eight millenia of rulers.
- They probably started with more houses and they've dropped to this number over time. Google Galton Watson extinction of family names which provides a statistical analysis of how the number of names drop over time. An example is China which used to have thousands of family names but is now down to 450, the rest have died out. Countries which have adopted surnames more recently still have thousands.
- The name has almost certainly descended through the female line at times. Brandon the Daughterless was succeeded by the son of Bael the Bard if Ygritte's tale is to be believed.
- The time spans mentioned in A So Ia F are almost certainly exaggerated, as Sam mentions. The uneven seasons may lead to an incorrect reckoning of time.
- As outrageous as these exaggerations may seem, they definitely have real life precedents that GRRM was possibly inspired by. The famous King Lists of Mesopotamia mention certain kings who reigned thousands of years, sometimes tens of thousands. Additionally the Hindu calendar year is in the billions, despite the fact scholars believe that calendar and the Hindu faith are "only" about 3000 years old.
- At the start of "A Distant Mirror" the author Barbara W Tuchman talks about how in medieval Europe the average length of time for a Royal House to last was six generations and the average amount of time for a noble house to go exinct or become non-noble was about 200 years. Yet almost every House we know about predates not only the conquest but goes back to the Andal invasion in the South or the Age of heroes in the North. I can only assume that adopting the House name of the House you replaced is a near universal tradition. Also as a side note the Freys are looked down upon as upstart newcomers but they are as old as the Hapsburgs were before they collapsed while the Tyrells are as old the British Royal family.
- If you buy the 8000 year timescale, then every surviving family in Westeros, noble and common, can trace their lineage back that far. It's just that some have bigger names than others. Technically, in real life, you and I could trace our lineage back to the first single celled organisms on Earth. In Westeros, it serves to illustrate the great conceit among the noble caste, that their family is somehow "older" than others. Really, it just means that the male line is unbroken, and they all go to great pains to keep it that way, from pressuring sons to break vows (Tywin Lannister), to legitimizing bastards (Roose Bolton, and maybe later Stannis Baratheon), to having more sons and daughters than you know what to do with (Walder Frey).
Taking the Black: Lesser Evil?
- Why exactly is serving in the Night's Watch so horrible? I am not talking about how people of noble birth or otherwise decent surroundings would be reluctant to volunteer - I can see that, it would not be my career choice either. But it's mentioned several times that some criminals prefer to be executed or castrated rather than joining. Why would anyone EVER consider this? The first leaves you definitely dead, and the second in excruciating pain, with a lifelong stigma, and probably also dead (given the low hygiene standards the procedure is bound to be performed in). Joining the Watch on the other hand means MAYBE freezing to death, and MAYBE being killed by wildlings (or Others, but since pretty much no one outside the Watch really knows about them, they should not figure into this). All the while you are fed (not much, but enough to survive, a big deal), clothed and get a roof to sleep under (a commodity many in wartorn Westeros lack). And even if most officers are of high birth, the Watch is one of the few places in Westeros where you can earn status even if you are a commoner or bastard. So I guess my question is - why has the Watch even a shortage of men? Shouldn't there be a great influx of volunteers whenever there is a war, famine or other desaster that leads to lots of people losing everything?
- The main reason is that there has not been a famine or debilitating disaster in quite a while. It seems that Robert's Rebellion did not do nearly the damage to Westeros that the War of the Five Kings did - probably because Tywin Lannister spent most of it at Casterly Rock biding his time and the realm has had fourteen years of mainly summer to recover from any effects. Nobody knows about the Night Watch's importance and most bastards and younger sons would rather become maesters, septons, or knights than freeze at the Wall. However, it does seem that when given the option most criminals take the Wall.
- A lifetime of celibacy and being bored off of your ass standing on a frozen wall made of ice staring at nothing while freezing your balls off. It's like prison but hey, it's freezing. Oh, and it's a life sentence. If you run? You die. I can't for the life of me understand why this would be seen in an uncomplimentary light. Did I mention that it's cold?
- Is it a nice fate? No. Is it a nice fate compared to, say, starving because one dick marched through your land when he went to war and took everything you had, and then three weeks later another dick marched through and took what's left, and any moment now a third dick may show up and just kill you because it's fun, and right now no one's around to persecute him? Sure, when everything is peaceful no one wants to go to the Wall. But you can only go so many days without food before the group of people who promise to take everyone (now including women) and feed them starts to sound very appealing. And unlike joining the army of one of the lords, you are not going to end up on the wrong side of a rebellion. Most of Westeros considers the Watch to be without a purpose anyway, so there does not seem to be much danger up there (excluding the cold). Granted, becoming a maester sounds much more appealing, but for that you have to get all the way to Oldtown, and for almost half the continent (the North) this is next to impossible right now.
- An important thing to remember is that the Watch was undermanned BEFORE the war started. It was still summer at the time, and as another troper mentioned, no one wants to freeze their ass off on a wall unless they have to, and the lack of food and pillaging bandits and etc meant they would be less inclined to. And once the war started... well, we know what happened to Yoren and his recruits. The simple notion of finding recruits and bringing them back to the Wall would take a great deal of time and resources, which they probably couldn't spare because of The Great Ranging and because they were undermanned to begin with.
- There is no reason to assume that Westeros has a lot of crime, or at least not a lot of serious crime. It's a mostly rural society, and prior to the War of the Five Kings, a peaceful and prosperous one. Such crime as Westeros has probably runs more toward petty theft, the periodic drunken brawl, or other minor crimes likely to be punished with nothing more than a flogging or a day in the stocks. The number of crimes serious enough to invoke a penalty severe enough to make heading for the Wall attractive may have been small, at least in recent years.
- Well, there is crime and violence enough to make room for sellswords, bandits and an entire section of the capital devoted to petty criminals. There is also numerous mentions of how dangerous the roads are, even before the War of Five Kings. Still, quite a few people enjoy life even if they have to steal now and then. Thieveing, and going hungry in a warm and nice place as King's Landing, where you also might die a violent death is probably preferable to basically doing the same, but under a much stricter regime, at the Wall. Also, the Wall is more or less at the far end of the world. Just getting there would be risky. Also, why was ser Davos a smuggler instead of joining the Watch? Some men prefer and even prosper being criminals. Compare it with our world, not everyone who can join the French Foreign Legion (including the petty criminals that are still allowed) do so and there are as many reasons as there are people.
- There are ton of reasons. First, the vast majority of people are not eligible to join the Watch. Women (initially) and the young aren't eligible. The old typically have roots and/or families they don't want to abandon. And during the war, men of fighting age can easily find work in one of the many armies rampaging around. Also, the Watch is filled with killers, thieves, and rapists. Sure, there are those with noble hearts like Halfhand, but as the fiasco at Craster's Keep showed the lid can come off the rest. Many of them aren't all that pleasant to spend your days with even when discipline does hold. But most importantly, the Watch involves sacrificing your entire future. You will never have kids. You will never own a business, work good land, enjoy any prosperity, or even get laid again (in theory). You can rise up in the ranks, but to what end? Your life will still be brutally austere until your inevitable cold death.
- Errr, the young weren't elligible? Then what was Lommy Greenhands and Hot Pie doing with Yoren?
- They weren't eligible initially. The fact that Yoren has to make to do with taking early adolescent orphans just goes to show how dire their recruiting is.
- You're wrong, actually. They accept male children when they're very young, for example: Mance Rayder and Qhorin Halfhand. But I understand if you missed that fact, they're completely unimportant characters who have no baring on the story.
- This is not a page meant for snide remarks.
- It's not hard to understand: People like to have a family and you can't in the Night's Watch. Ditto for staying with people and places they know. People like to be safe and its always dangerous up there as opposed to only being dangerous sometimes. It's cold up there too. Even sex is questionable: Mormont considers it vow breaking but not worth punishing. Other Lord Commanders might feel differently. Besides which is war that common? Most places in Westeros have not been touched by the war: Not the Vale, Reach, Southern Westerlands, Stormlands Dorne, Northern Riverlands, Iron Islands or Eastern North.
- Why hasn't winter hit yet? They made a big thing in the first book about how winter is coming, and that it would be a long one. I was expecting that the winter would hit about the same time as the war did - we'd have heavy snowfall in Winterfell in ACOK, the rivers in the Trident would freeze in ASOS, and by AFFC Cersei has to dress in furs to avoid freezing her butt off. However, the only major sign of winter we've had in the south is that the Eyrie has been abandoned (which they do every winter), and that happens at the end of AFFC! Unless the last two books cover a lot of time, when the whole series ends, they'll still be in the dead of winter. Of course, it's entirely possible that this is all part of GRRM's plan - I'm speculating from the title of the next book that winter is about to hit hard. Still, It Just Bugs Me.
- Winter has come — a white raven from the maesters clinches it. The whole narrative up till now has used the encroachment of winter as a slow, inexorably creeping factor that adds a forbearing subtext to everything that happens — all human accomplishments, good or ill, will have to answer that which cannot be changed. The Seven Kingdoms, you might say, are fiddling while Rome freezes. And like you say, it seems like we see its full effects soon.
- Winter has only just come. The first batch of white ravens from the citadel announced the arrival of autumn, and we've been seeing autumn-like weather for the duration of the War of the Five Kings, but just now we're seeing the beginnings of winter, with the first frosts in the south and the north's first big snowfall. tWoW will probably open with another white raven.
- In fact aDwD finishes with a white raven in the epilogue
- "Winter has begun" just means they have reached the Westerosi version of midsummer: The days are only going to get colder and shorter from now on. It doesn't mean you should expect snow tomorrow.
- Actually, you should. During Stannis' march on Winterfell in aDwD, his army is severely hindered by howling blizzards, deep snow, and extremes of cold worse than anything shown in the books at that point, in a way not entirely unlike Napoleon's invasion of Russia. Of course, the northmen do consider this Autumn weather...
- Okay, so, in book three we find out that Littlefinger arranged for Jon Arryn's death, knowing that it would bring the Starks to King's Landing and, once they were there, subtly led Ned to discovering the whole Twincest thing, then played off his Honor Before Reason tendencies so he'd get himself arrested and sent to the Wall. Of course, this didn't work out exactly how he planned. However, the going theory is that he did this, at least in part, so Ned's marriage vows would be anulled, making Cat single. But, in ADWD, Cersei mentions that, even before the whole beheading thing, he'd asked her if he could marry Sansa Stark, his Replacement Goldfish. So had he given up on Cat already? Did he view Sansa as an equal, if not superior, substitute, and only kept after Ned out of revenge? Or did the whole Stalker With a Crush thing not factor in at all, and it was just convenient that the Starks were caught up in it? Pretty minor, but it occurred to me the other day and has been bugging me since then.
- This occurred to me too, except my bone to pick with it was that it was a very stupid action in Petyr's part and he is not stupid. Not only does it not make any sense re:his love/obsession with Catelyn but it declares his hand to Cersei and by extension the other Lannisters way too early. At that point he hadn't gained any social standing at all and Sansa has just turned twelve. And surely Cersei would have suspected Petyr when Sansa vanished from King's Landing? I view this as a bad Retcon. I can't fit it into canon at all. However, when Petyr is demanding a large but unspecified reward for recruiting that Tyrells at a council meeting in A Clash Of Kings, I now think he was asking for Sansa at some point in the future. Like, when she's not a child.
- OP here. Maybe the fan-theory that his plan was to get Ned sent to the wall is wrong. My guess now is that he was exclusively after revenge. He had no designs to win Cat; he wanted to take everything away from her, and all the Starks. Which also explains why he didn't try to stop or appear to react to her death. When he saw Sansa, he saw her as a second chance, a way to get the girl, except he'd be getting a version of the girl who hadn't scorned him. So, in summary, my new theory: Littlefinger hates Adult!Catelyn, but he's still in love with Child!Catelyn, and looks at Sansa as a kind of reincarnation of that. Yeah, I know.
- This theory holds a lot of water, but it still needs to be proved. My impression is that Petyr's an opportunist who has already shown readers that, often, he'll take what he can get and make it work. I think he viewed Sansa as an equal substitute for Cat, especially since he's already eyeing her up earlier in the book. Notably, Sansa would have, at that point, been a gateway to less prestige, given her position at court (agree: stupid). It would also be disadvantageous given the necessity of eliminating the other Starks before he could get a political payoff from her (which gives water to the "abandoning Cat" theory). Or maybe it's really just true love.
- It may be that the exact opposite of the theory that Petyr wanted Ned sent to the Wall is true. He might be the one who convinced Joffrey it was better to execute him.
- He intended to send Ned to the Wall and marry Sansa. However when Cersei denied him Sansa's hand, he got pissed off and convinced Joffrey to execute Ned, thus throwing the Lannisters into a war with the Starks and Tullys whose Houses he already hated.
- It's difficult to say anything conclusively when it comes to Littlefinger, but this troper's reading of it is this: Littlefinger probably did convince Joffrey to have Ned executed, and this wasn't just some zany plan to regain Catelyn (or gain Sansa), or even just to spite Cersei as is suggested above. He wanted the civil war because, as he himself says, he's extremely good at manipulating chaos to his own ends; and his ends are not just the satisfaction of his childhood romantic (or sexual) obsession, but equally the power and status that he, as one of the most minor lordlings in the entire realm, always lacked. Seen through this prism, this troper thinks Littlefinger's actions make a lot more sense.
Four Lines, All Waiting
- A Feast for Crows was split into two volumes, because it turned out much too long. Instead of just cutting it in half, Martin decided to split it by POV, because otherwise every character would only get two or three chapters, and there would be little progress individually. ADWD supplied the remained POV. And Martin has announced that TWOW will not be split. So... doesn't that mean we are faced with the exact same problem. The only recurring POV to die in ADWD was introduced in the same book, along with two more recurring ones. Meaning the number of POV is now actually higher than it was before. That means either:
- Some characters just don't get chapters in TWOW. They return in the next volume, but what happened between is only mentioned in passing.
- Some POV are discontinued. So far PO Vs only ceased to exist if the character died (except Catelyn, a special case). But it may be used to solve this problem. However, as of the end of ADWD, only a few POV are together (so that one could fill in for the other). Arianne (confirmed to appear in TWOW) could fill in for Areo Hotah (who never ...did much anyway), Theon for Asha (if they are still together after what may or may not have happened to Stannis' host). Barristan only got his POV to narrate the story in Mereen after Dany was gone, so he could lose it if she returns soon. Melisandre only had a single chapter anyway, but she will very likely be used to narrate what happened to Jon.
- They are discontinued because they die. Well, while that could happen (to one or two, maybe), I don't think Martin would just kill off a significant number of them in the first few chapters. Yes, Anyone Can Die, but so far the number of truly 'central' characters to die has not been that large.
- Nothing. All POV appear in TWOW, but the number of those who only get one or two chapters (like Melisandre or Jon Connington in ADWD) increases.
The Exact Words of Jaime's oath to Catelyn
- While in-character, but I'm kind of puzzled by Jaime's creative interpretation of the oath Catelyn had him make and how Jaime seems to think he's keeping it. Jaime was made to promise that he would not take up arms against Starks or Tullys. While Jaime does argue that the oath was meaningless since he made it at sword-point, he still feels bound by it (if only in defiance of his rep as The Oathbreaker). The problem is, if he really cared about the oath, then he'd be following the spirit of it, not just the letter. Cat obviously would have wanted him to stay out of the conflict entirely, and I can't believe that Jaime himself thinks he's really following the oath. I'm sure Un-Cat will be really understanding when Jaime meets her.
- Shutting down the conflict without any further casualties sounds like it would be perfectly within the spirit of the oath.
- Jaime was acting under the direct orders of the Queen Regent to finish the siege of Riverun. He's a knight of the Kingsguard and it's treason to refuse those orders. He simply did the best he could to obey Cersei and yet keep his oath to Cat. He knows he'll be the Kingslayer until the day he dies, so keeping the oath is more important to himself than what others think of him; and if his reputation as an immoral shit helps him resolve the situation without bloodshed, he might as well use it.
Weird Seasons and Animal Life
- So, on Westeros, do bears hibernate through the entire winter? because I'm pretty sure a bear would die if it tried to hibernate for 20 years.
- Well, it's unspecified exactly how long the weird seasons have been going on, and many animals that depend on the changing of the seasons in our world seem to be doing just fine. I suppose they've adapted, or this is an example of Call a Smeerp a "Rabbit".
- There is also mention of "Summer Snows" which suggests there could be 'Winter Thaws.' Just because they enter into extended cold periods doesn't necessarily mean it does nothing but snow and be cold for years on end. They might simply have greatly shortened warm spells. Short summers that never get very warm or sunny would impede crop growth while still allowing wild flora and fauna a break.
- Correct. Prior to the Long Winter that first brought the others and saw the Wall raised, the seasons appeared to have been more or less the same as Earth. After the War for the Dawn, the Others/White Walkers were pushed back, but the seasons were never the same again, effectively leaving Westeros bound to mini-ice ages every few years or so. However, the remnants of the original seasons still persist: the Summer Snows in the North seem to match up to a regular winter by Earth standards. Meanwhile, the Reach apparently has something akin to 'Winter Thaws' that, along with simply not being hit as hard, allow them to grow enough food to survive in Winter whilst being able to grow enough to become exceedingly wealthy in the Summer years. Both books and show have characters from the Reach making mention of them supporting the entire realm throughout the Winters. Meanwhile, it's not impossible for the rest of the realm to enjoy breaks from time to time, like how 281 AC (when the fateful Harrenhal Tourney took place) was known as The Year of the False Spring. Then, you have Dorne, which appears to not be affected at all (mayhaps a rainy season?). Essentially, because we hear mostly from Northerners regarding the effects of Winter, we forget that the rest of the continent probably just goes through shortened warm periods and overall lower temperatures. The North most likely does go into complete lockdown for Winter, aside from maybe brief thaws, but even they may have respites along the coast and in the southern areas, especially since I'm pretty sure the Neck wouldn't completely freeze (to have Lizard-Lion/Alligators, it would suggest a near-tropical climate most of the time). As for animal life, they would likely have adapted to the changed conditions. Assuming the average Winter was between 2 and 5 years, with an occasional thaw, then while there would be quite a few deaths, there would still be enough cases of animals hibernating for an extended period, catching a midwinter snack, and then hibernating some more before spring. Likewise, trees get their nutrients from the ground and the sun, so while broadleaves may be scarce in northern regions, they would still survive so long as they get what they need, which again wouldn't be so bad in the south. Evergreens would be just fine.
- They shapeshift into Mormonts.
Asha and Qarl
- Okay, what exactly happened with Asha and Qarl? I honestly couldn't tell if it was roleplay or rape. Sounds kinda petty, but there's a world of difference between two people acting on a fetish and a woman coming to enjoy a man forcing himself on her because they're in love.
- I think it was the latter. Very disappointing, because until then Martin had been so good at demonstrating that rape was a part of Medieval life without glorifying it or playing any stupid "but then she liked it" games. Really, GRRM, why?
- Because some women do like it? Whether or not it's PC? Considering Asha also comes on to her brother for shits and giggles she is probably not the most vanilla person by nature anyway.
- I'm pretty sure it was roleplay, although I wish that GRRM had given us a hint ahead of time because the scene does read like a rape scene if you don't know what's going on.
- After the fact, it sounds like she and Qarl have done this before. I'm going with "roleplay", but a more extreme version.
- Keep in mind, these are ironborn. They're tough as nails (remember the "finger dance," anybody? Or being drowned and brought back as a religious rite?) and could easily have a taste for very rough sex.
- Because perhaps she genuinely likes it? Actual rape would be a different matter entirely of course, but rough foreplay or lack of entirely with someone who makes her wet? Everyone's got different preferences, and her musings on Qarl suggest she does have feelings for him, she just prefers the way they do things.
- And In-Universe the ironborn do glorify rape — while everyone else accepts that it's inevitable in war, it's still an atrocity and their lords make a point of hanging or gelding those rapists they catch. With the ironborn however the fact that Euron has seen the world, met interesting women and raped them counts in his favor, as Asha herself mentions before the kingsmoot.
- According to Asha's inner monologue later in the same chapter, she and Qarl have been lovers for years, so it's pretty clear that the earlier scene is only roleplay.
- Do you know the Ironborn Safe Words? One of them is "axe" and the other is "dagger". Asha carries both of them. She's perfectly willing to use them on any random horny Ironborn, and tells everyone that. She does not use them on Qarl. She does not even threaten Qarl with them. She, IIRC, even does not have them on hand in that particular scene because she knows she won't need them with Qarl. It means this is roleplay.
Rhaegar's Informed Awesomeness
- Why does Rhaegar get so much in-universe respect? He was pretty and good at the harp and tourneys, but he didn't do anything to protect his mother from the brutality of Aerys, neither did he do anything to mitigate the damage Aerys's insanity was doing to Westeros, betrayed his wife by getting (consensually or no) with Lyanna, which also started a war, which he then lost, failed to protect his wife and children from being brutally murdered, couldn't protect Lyanna either... Aerys may have been crazy, but it was Rhaagar who truly caused the downfall of his house. The house of Tagaeryn, his mother, his father, his wife, his children, his lover, his country... was there anyone this man had a responsibility to that he DIDN'T let down?
- Because he was the sane pretty prince and up until the Lyanna thing (and we don't actually know if he was in any way really in the wrong there) he probably could have held the realm together once the Mad King was dead. As for "betraying his wife", given the number of obvious (by their name) bastards roaming around who are openly acknowledged, why would anyone even bat an eyelash? The only problem was his choice of whom to dally with. (If that's all it was, which seems increasingly unlikely.)
- He was handsome, accomplished both in the harp and tourneys (so both art and war), probably noble all around and liked by the common people and his peers both. Basically he was a model knight until the Lyanna thing, after which things escalated quite fast. Considering the patriarchal, feudal model, and the sheer number of acknowledged bastards around, nobody would've cared if he had a bit on the side if it wasn't Lyanna and she wasn't engaged at the time. Also, as far as I remember Aerys wasn't a bad king until the madness started getting at him hard - he'd been a decent king for years, so why would Rhaegar antagonize him?
- It's possible that Lyanna wasn't meant to be a "bit on the side" either. The first Targaryen king had two wives. Princess Elia was Dornish, and therefore likely more open to non monogamy. And since the reason (if you piece it together) he ran off with Lyanna was because a third pregnancy would likely have killed Elia and he thought he needed three children, surely a trueborn child would be better.
- It is a case of people remembering things as being better than they were. Rhaegar is dead and it is easy to cast a dead man as the savior. It is a case of the people of Westeros thinking that if only the dashing prince was alive, our lives wouldn't be miserable.
- In one of Jaime's reminiscences, Rhaegar acknowledges that he could have done better for the realm during Aerys's reign and tells him that when he comes back from battle he will make changes. Unfortunately, that battle is The Trident.
- It's also mentioned at least once that Aerys came to the tourney at Harrenhal (that fateful one where Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna and Ned with Ashara Dayne) specifically because he feared that Rhaegar would use the tourney to build an army and depose him. The fact that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the queen of love and beauty publicly — even in front of his wife — seems to indicate that she wasn't simply intended to be a random dalliance. So clearly, at least after the Mad King went mad, Rhaegar was open to the possibility of overthrowing his father for the good of the kingdom and actually made at least some moves in that direction (and might have discussed it with Elia).
Release from the Night's Watch vows
- Something I thought of that kind of confused me, and wondered if there was evidence in-series for there being precedents. Cersei is shown having a plan dependent upon Osney Kettleblack being sent to the Wall, and had promised to pardon him afterward, something he seems to trust. Similarly, Stannis is shown promising to release Jon from his vows. While I guess royals can do whatever they want, it seems strange that you could release someone from the Night Watch, since they say a vow to serve for life. In the case of conscripts, their being pardoned/innocent of a crime is immaterial to the oath, and with someone who joined willingly, like Jon, it seems even stranger that a royal edict could cancel out their oath.
- It's exactly the "royals can do whatever they want" case. Just like Cersei dismisses the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, another station that requires a life-long oath to be taken, Stannis can dismiss a member of the Night's Watch. It's unorthodox and probably unprecedented, but well within their capabilities. Or you can see it as the oath being broken, and then the king pardoning this crime.
- It's made clear that oaths have been worked around in the past if need be. When Maester Aemon was offered the Iron Throne, it had also been arranged for him to be freed from his vows to the Citadel, but he Refused The Crown. King Robb talks of legitimising Jon Snow, saying that if he arranges for a hundred or so men to be sent to the Wall, he's sure the Night's Watch could find some way to release Jon from his vows, so clearly bribery works too.
- I'm the undermanned Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Then the queen offers me 100 strong troops to help man the wall in exchange for releasing one nobody from his vows. I'm rather inclined to take that deal.
The Kingsguard and Warden titles
- In A Game Of Thrones, Ned and Robert are talking about how Jaime is going to become Warden of the East because Robert Arryn isn't strong enough to take up the post, and how he will also become Warden of the West when Tywin dies. But hasn't Jaime been in the Kingsguard since he was fifteen? In later books it makes the point that he can't inherit Casterly Rock because he's a member of the Kingsguard, so he can't hold titles. How can he then be Warden of the East?
- The warden titles represent the person responsible for defense of the given region; traditionally but not necessarily held by the high lord of the region. Jaime can't serve as high lord, but as a member of the Kingsguard, he can serve as a general in times of war, and therefore serve as a warden. It's likely that Warden of the West is the only title that Jaime can inherit from Tywin, and it would be one he'd be far more capable at than Tyrion or Kevan, who at the time would have been Tywin's heirs-apparent.
- As discussed elsewhere, "title" in a feudal context refers to lands and incomes as a vassal, and the military and political power associated. As Kingsguard, Jaime can't be Lord of Casterly Rock. As Kingsguard, he can have honorifics and military commands, which is what a Warden is.
- An example would be the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard serving on the Small Council.
- How does Samwell Tarly remain so fat? In his POV chapters he is still the huffing, puffing round mound of touchdown that he was when he was introduced. Yet, this is after all the training he did at the wall, the whole expedition to the Fist, basically starving on the voyage to Braavos, and months and months of Night Watch food. He shouldn't be in shape just yet, but he should be significantly slimmer after that much time.
- Sam's father had been trying to get him in shape for years, so it's not like he wasn't getting any exercise.
- Sam does mention in one of his last PO Vs in ADWD that while he's still overweight, he's not nearly as fat as he used to be. And people can be fit/in shape while still appearing "fat", which may be the case with Sam.
- Sam's last POV chapter where he says he's not as fat as he was actually bothered me as well. So trudging across the wilderness and nearly starving to death for the better part of two books did nothing to help him lose weight, but sitting on a boat for awhile and eating fish was super effective. Um, okay. I imagine he'd remain pudgy despite all the training while at the wall itself, though, because night watch food would probably be fairly hearty in order to provide enough energy for the primarily already-fit night watchmen.
- Like Hurley pointed out on LOST: one of the many things that suck about being very overweight is that you can lose thirty or forty pounds, enough to make a healthy-sized person into a skeleton, and it will still barely show, because it's such a small portion of your total body weight. Fat people don't magically lose weight at a faster rate than non-fat people — just like everyone else, they lose it a few pounds at a time.
Tywin, Confirmed Widower
- Why didn't Tywin ever remarry and try and have another son to replace Tyrion? Yea, he loved his late wife, but he's cold, ruthless, and above all, pragmatic. And he hates Tyrion. Why hold onto some vain and irrational hope that Jaime will be allowed to inherit despite being a kingsguard instead of trying to produce a non-dwarven heir and pulling a Randal Tarly on Tyrion?
- I've been wondering about both this and Tywin's helping himself to Shae. He hates Tyrion and he hates whores, but he's fine with having sex with Tyrion's whore?
- As for that it's as simple as him being a hypocrite. As for why he fucks Shae specifically, well, she's hot and very good at telling men what they want to hear. Another factor is he might not be so opposed to whores in general as he is embarrassed by Tyrion's flagrant, open whoring. Tyrion makes no secret of his visits to brothels. Tywin might have been less hostile about it if his son wasn't dragging the family name through the sludge. Still, original question stands.
- It's mentioned that he was devoted to his wife (Aegon ruled the kingdom, he ruled Aegon, she ruled him). Further, after he found out about the infidelity of his wife and the past business with his fathers mistress, I can imagine him being a bit bitter on official relations with women, if not still heartbroken. Remarrying purely for power gives conflicts with his other children, who he does love. Still, I'm not convinced myself...
- "Infidelity of his wife"? I don't recall that ever being mentioned, but I may have just forgotten. Where did you get this?
- Page 57 of Book I: Tyrion: "All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes." Jon Snow: "You are your mother's trueborn son of Lannister." Tyrion: "Am I? . . . Do tell my lord father. My mother died birthing me, and he's never been sure."
- And that's leaving out the hints about Joanna and King Aerys that we get in Book 5.
- Ignoring Book 5 (can't recall those hints, need to reread), but Tyrion's comment is clearly meant to be about the lack of recognition he's gotten from Tywin, not any real doubt as to his bloodline.
- In book 3, Tywin states: "Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine."
- Because of his dislike of Tyrion. It has yet to be implied that he ever caught Joanna in a compromising or suspicious situation.
- I have had a theory for some time that the reason Tywin never remarried (as could be seen to be his duty, be his private inclinations what they may; heck, gays marry if they're lords, and need to produce heirs to their Houses) is that he's either impotent, or has something else wrong. Remember, at weddings, the bride and groom are stripped in public as part of the bedding ceremony. Someone as prideful as Tywin Lannister would sooner remain unmarried rather than either not be able to display an erection or show the world that his genitalia are damaged.
- Tywin is so often associated with ruthless pragmatism that it's easy to forget he's just as easily influenced by his emotions as his offspring. It shows rarely — e.g. when he loses his temper when Tyrion asks for his rights as his heir — but a man who seeks to clamp down on all emotion is probably more likely to be influenced by it subconsciously. Tywin could simply be a Heartbroken Badass; his One True Love died and caused him such pain that Tywin, who despises weakness and refuses all half-measures, is determined never to put himself in that situation ever again. Remember too that Tywin saw his father open himself to ridicule with his concubine who was clearly a Replacement Goldfish for his dead wife (wearing her jewelry and listening to her council). So he refuses wives or concubines, but because Tywin still has sexual urges he discretely takes a whore to his bed when needed — but he'd view that as strictly controlling his urges unlike his son who loses himself in hedonism.
- Tywin also planned to remove Jaime (whom Tywin seemed to be extremely proud of) from the Kingsgaurd and return him to the position of heir of Casterly Rock.
- That wasn't an option until after Cersei removed Barristan from the guard; before that such a move would be unprecedented. Now, Tywin gives Tyrion his "You won't turn Casterly Rock into a whore house" speech after that, but the only reason he thinks he can have Jaime pulled from the guard is his lost hand, and Tywin didn't know about that at that point- I don't even think it had happened yet. There's also the question of why he didn't try it in the ten or so years before this point where Jaime was Kingsguard and Tyrion was a whoremongering dwarf and there didn't seem to be anyway around it. The only thing I can think is that he planned to give it to Tommen.
- Aeron Damphair apparently drinks nothing but sea water these days. Do that and at the very least you'd get incredibly, horribly dehydrated from all the salt in it, not to mention the effect it would have on your renal system in trying to get said salt out of you. Why has Aeron not died by now?
- It's made pretty clear that Aeron is being utilized by the Drowned God in some way or another (he doesn't need sleep when he has 'the god in him', similar to how Melisandre, the other prophet, doesn't need to eat). Presumably the religious nourishment of the seawater is all the god requires from him.
- Aeron did not necessarily drink only seawater. This is stated categorically in one of the Victarion chapters of A Dw D.
What's so great about the Great Houses?
- Okay, I'm not well-versed in medieval history, but what makes the Great Houses great? There don't seem to be very many of them, and the lesser houses are apparently being extinguished in the male line all the time. Is there a certain number of Great Houses that need to exist?
- The Great Houses are all overlords, charged with running each of the Seven Kingdoms, with many lesser lords swearing fealty to them. Also, they're essentially royal houses, and before the Targaryens landed most of them were kings of their realms. This is why the Seven Kingdoms are the Seven Kingdoms despite being ruled over by one king for a long time.
- You can certainly replace one Great House with another (House Tyrell for House Gardener, or House Lannister for House Casterly). But eliminating the need for one is virtually impossible, since that would leave you with a power vacuum in a geographic region resistant to being ruled from afar.
- They have the most defensible castles and the most income from their lands. That's basically it.
- That's the reason they *became* Great or Royal Houses, through conflict with rivals and getting vassals. But as the posters above said, they legal position is very different. In a European-style feudal system, there are several levels of vassalage. Very much simplified, it looks like this: Landed knights swear fealty to minor lords, minor lords to greater lords, greater lords to the crown. We see that same system at work in Westeros. Hypothetical example: Ser Alyn is a landed knight sworn to House Smallwood. House Smallwood is sworn to House Vance of Wayfarer's Rest, which is (was) a vassal of House Tully. House Tully swears fealty to the Iron Throne.
Why is Lord the only Noble title?
- Fuedal Europe had a formal Noble hierarchy that was codified with multiple Noble titles (such as Baron, Count/Earl, Marquis/Margrave, Duke), each with their own role and level of prestige, yet in Westeros the hundreds of Houses only have the title of Lord; the one exception being the Martels of Dorne who use Prince. Westeros absolutely does have a hierarchy of Houses, but to me it's very strange that Tywin Lannister would have the same title as Varys or Rickard Karstark. Anyone have any idea why GRRM decided to eschew a system of multiple titles in favor of just one?
- It seems that half the women who get married in this series get to keep their last names. Despite being married to Robert Baratheon, Cersei is never called Cersei Baratheon, only Cersei Lannister. And Sansa remains Sansa Stark after getting married to Tyrion, instead of being renamed Sansa Lannister. Yet the Tully sisters took on the last names of their husbands, being called Catelyn Stark and Lysa Arryn instead of Catelyn and Lysa Tully. There are a bunch of other, smaller examples of both that i can't name off the tip of my head, but i can't remember specifics. So can someone explain this?
- There could be any number of explanations. For one, maybe taking the husband's name is a northman tradition and keeping the maiden name is a southern one. The north does seem to be more traditional, maybe its an Old Gods vs. the Seven thing. On a personal level, Catelyn and Lysa married men who were at least interested in them as people, even if the matches were arranged. Cersei married Robert, who was pining for Lyanna and who couldn't give two craps about her, so he wouldn't have pressed the issue - and she was in love with Jaime so she would have wanted to keep the name. Sansa could be explained in two ways: Either they still thought of her as a traitor's daughter and didn't want to give her the Lannister name, or they wanted to keep the Stark to strengthen Tyrion's claim to Winterfell.
- I always thought that it was unofficial. So basically, technically speaking Cersei's last name is Baratheon, and Sansa's is Lannister, but that's not the name people mentally associate with them for whatever reason, so no one calls them that, out loud or in the narration. They just don't think to do it, whereas Catelyn and Lysa both became far more associated with their married names. For Cersei there could be another reason; Westeros is inspired in several ways by medieval England, and English common-born Queens continued to be referred to with their surnames, even though technically their name was now Plantagenet or Tudor - the foreign ones rarely had a last name they used in the first place, they were So-and-so of Country.
- similar to the above poster, I always thought it had to do with title. House Tully has a male heir so the sisters take their husband's names. Jaime can't inherit and Tyrion is effectively disinherited so Cersi/her issue is the inheritor of Casterly Rock, not to mention that much of Robert's power came from the Lannister marriage, you don't want people forgetting that. (Also why Joffrey's sigil is the stag AND the lion, not just the crowned stag of Baratheon.)
- Another theory: maybe women keep their last names if they are married into a younger family. So, Catelyn changed her last name because Starks are the oldest of the great houses, Cersei kept hers because Baratheons are a new house.
- OP here, I managed to ask George R.R. Martin himself, this is his answer: If Robert had still been a lord when Cersei wed him, she would have been Lady Baratheon. Instead she became Queen Cersei. Not much different from real life. Over in England, people talk about Queen Elizabeth II, not Elizabeth Windsor. Princess Diana was Princess Diana, not Diana Windsor. Etc.
- Makes perfect sense. If Queen Elizabeth were to predecease Prince Philip, people would not take to calling him Philip Mountbatten.
- Sorry, but neither of those comparisons are relevant in this case. Queen Elizabeth II is a queen in her own right, while Cersei is a queen consort: two different things altogether. Princess Diana wasn't commonly called Diana Spencer after her marriage any more than she was called Diana Windsor, while Cersei is still referred to as Cersei Lannister and never Cersei Baratheon. It seems more likely that in Westeros, the married women who stood to inherit their father's estates - such as Cersei or Sansa, or even Daenerys, for that matter - kept their maiden name after marriage (whether officially or unofficially is not clear).
- Although a fine observation, might I point out the one obvious British Queen-consort that proves an important variable in how you get named both in your time and after? Queen Caroline. Technically "Caroline of Ansbach" because... well, that was the easier part of her incredibly long name to remember: but, she's mainly just known as "Queen Caroline" (no other qualifier needed, even today). She was very popular: much more popular than her husband, in fact. By contrast... nobody calls Elizabeth Woodville just "Queen Elizabeth" these days (she would have been called it to her face at the time). This contrast of names has nothing to do with her status as Queen-consort and everything to do with her being a... <dramatic shudder and drum roll> Woodville. Not that popular to the wider crowd (then or now) — hence, people trying to distance her from the King by any means going, starting back then, mostly "behind" her back. Worse, even Kings or Queens don't keep their day-to-day names (if they even had a stable one): take Lady Jane Grey: de facto Queen and a Dudley, not a Grey (politics) — also, unable to put her stamp on the title of Queen for long enough to keep it in the history books thanks to a lot of very dedicated spin upon her death (politics). How about Bertie and David: or, maybe they should have been the other way around...? Or how about the surname "Plantagenet"? Actually, it wasn't their surname, as such, at the time — that was later, Tudor-paid historians trying to find a label that'd fit a "House" that was never singular in that way and provide a little contrast and legitimacy. In short: what you wind up being called depends on a number of factors, be you male or female: what you call yourself at the time either in public or private, what others call you (either out of respect or derision) and, how popular you (or members of the family you come from) are when your most commonly used name is written down by others at various times all count. Conventions may play a part. But, only a part.
- Women in Westeros keep their maiden names if they are from an older house than their husbands. Aegon the Conqueror made the Tullys Lords of the Riverlands only 300 years ago, so Catelyn and Lysa took the names of their husbands from the much older Houses Stark and Arryn. House Baratheon is the youngest of the great houses, so Cersei and Sansa keep their maiden names. This is also why Margaery Tyrell is always referred to as Margaery Tyrell, despite being married to three different Baratheon kings.
The Ubiquity of Bastards
- I don't get why there's so many bastards running around. Clearly, there are ways of getting rid of unwanted pregnancies (something about tansy) and preventing them entirely (moon tea). You would think that at least noblewomen could avoid it, like Lysa or Cersei did. Whores also get pregnant all the time, wouldn't it be prudent for the whorehouses to keep moon tea on hand? Yes, it's difficult for them to get hold of a maester, but it's hardly impossible. Not to mention woods witches.
- It's doubtful any form of birth control in a society at this level is foolproof. In addition, it's as likely as not that the mothers simply couldn't bring themselves to do it.
- Lysa and Cersei didn't want to (Cersei, in fact, drank moon tea the one time Robert got her pregnant). As for common gals, depending on the lord doing the impregnating, being the mother of a bastard often means some level of financial security and physical protection, as in Real Life.
- Speaking of which, was Lady Tanda really so deep in denial that she couldn't bring herself to get moon tea for poor Lollys?
- As discussed below, the available means of terminating Lollys' pregnancy might permanently affect her ability to have children. Lollys is already mentally handicapped, unattractive, and older than the typical "marriageable" Westerosi noblewoman. If there's any cause to suspect she might not be able to have healthy children, Tanda would never get her married off.
- We live in a time with ready access to various safe, highly effective and very affordable birth control. Consider the number of single/teenaged/low income mothers and absentee fathers today. Why would a quasi-medieval society be any better off?
- Most of primitive abortive and contraceptive drugs are poisons, and weaken the female body until it's so sick it cannot bear the child anymore. It's really rare to see hormonal-based drugs, and as lot of modern females could tell you, some of those still makes you sick as hell. You don't poison yourself unless you're forced to.
- To expand on that: look at what happened to Lysa Arryn. She was presumably fertile in her teens, when she slept with Littlefinger and was given tansy to induce an abortion. Afterwards, she suffered repeated miscarriages, and the one child she did bring to term was weak and sickly. There's no reason to assume Jon Arryn had any unusual genetic defects, and Lysa's sister had five healthy babies, so the most likely explanation is that what happened to Lysa affected her ability to bear children. Since having healthy children is a key to social status for Westerosi noblewomen, it would be VERY risky to do anything that might endanger that. So most women don't make the choice that Hoster Tully forced on Lysa, even given the opportunity.
- Slight correction: Lysa was Jon Arryn's third wife; the first died in childbirth, the baby stillborn, and the second never caught pregnant at all even though they were presumably trying like mad to produce an heir. So there is in fact every reason to suspect that Arryn might have had fertility problems, especially given his advanced age. Everything else you said is correct though.
No in-universe Jon Targaryen theorists
- The conclusion that Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen seems so inescapable, that one is given to wonder why people don't suspect it in universe. This is not to say that it is necessarily true — it could well turn out to be a red herring on Martin's part. The strangest part is that there seems to be no adequate explanation for how Lyanna Stark died, when you would think that's the first question anybody (Robert, first and foremost) would ask.
- The R + L = J theory is built upon a very specific aspect of Rhaegar's personality (his obsession with the Prince who was Promised). And some little details that Ned's viewpoint chapters revealed about the last time he saw his sister. The vast majority of people in Westeros have absolutely no way of knowing about those things, and therefore have no reason to suspect that Jon Snow is anyone other than Ned's bastard.
- The question remains: how did Lyanna Stark die, or more precisely, how do people think she died? When Ned Stark comes back north, cagey about the details of what went on in the Tower of Joy and with a baby about whose origins he is equally cagey, I find it hard to accept that nobody, anywhere, would at least develop suspicions.
- Robert assumed that Rhaegar treated her badly enough for her to die. Ned never disabused him of this notion. Everyone south thinks that Ned bedded Ashara Dayne, who happened to commit suicide after delivering a baby right around that time, and everyone north just assumes that honor-ridden Ned is prickly enough about one indiscretion to not want to talk about it.
- Plus, assuming that the theory is true, Ned would have actively attempted to discourage people from the notion. After all, revealing info like that would basically be planting a massive neon sign over Jon's head saying "Kill me! I'm a threat!" Notice that both times someone brings up Jon's mother to him, he responds in a way that convinces the other person to just drop it. First by scaring the living crap out of his wife, and then by telling Robert a small believable lie that gets him to forget about the kid.
- This, and more. There were no R+L=J theorists in-universe because Ned didn't want this theory to pop out. He planted red herrings about Ashara Dayne and a commoner woman, or at least was congenial to such rumors, and strategically imitated Suspiciously Specific Denial. He (and not Catelyn) insisted on Jon sitting below the salt during the Winterfell feast, to prevent Robert and his entourage from examining Jon closely and finding any resemblance to Lyanna or Rhaegar.
- It really comes down to the readers having lots of small pieces of information that are not, in their entirety or even at all (for some), known in-world. Rheagar being obsessed with the PTWP is one - only people close to him would have known that, and most of those people died in the war. Ned's internal oddities about Lyanna and Jon are the main clues (the bed of blood, the promise he made her, recalling all his children by name when imprisoned and leaving out Jon, etc) and not one of those was ever whispered outside of his own head. The timeline stuff helps, but it was a civil war - people were out of touch, it was chaos. So not many survivors are going to put the pieces together. Finally, it's a pretty crapsack world; no one is going to bat an eye at a great lord having a bastard around. No one. And in the end (as any trip to a Westeros forum will rapidly indicate), it's not an "inescapable" conclusion to all the readers.
- For the record, that's "inescapable" in the sense of "cannot be safely dismissed," rather than "is certainly true."
- Even if people don't suspect that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, why would anyone believe that Ned fathered him? Ned is one of the most honorable characters in the series, so you'd think that there would be at least one person who'd realize that him siring an illegitimate child, especially after getting married, is ridiculously out of character.
- The readers know it's out of character for Ned, but in-universe it's just accepted that high lords father bastards. That's just what happens when you marry strategically instead of for love.
- Also it's worth noting that, IIRC, there are instances of people in-universe analyzing the whole "Ned fathered a bastard" thing and coming up to the conclusion that, if Ned is as honorable as everyone says he is, something really weird happened there.
- Okay, I can buy that the average person wouldn't bat an eye about the Lord of Winterfell allegedly fathering a bastard, but what about people who've known Ned personally for years, like Robert (his best friend) or Jon Arryn (the man who fostered him)? Surely one of them would've gotten suspicious about the "yeah, the guy who might as well have 'honor' as his middle name cheated on his new wife and now has an illegitimate son" story.
- Honorable characters have bent their honor plenty of times in the story and backstory. Look at Robb Stark. He was promised to marry a Frey woman but in a moment of grief slept with another, and he tried to live up to his father's example. Even assuming that Jon Snow is not Eddard Stark's son, people would know that he would have been conceived at a time of a major war that saw Eddard's older brother, father and sister die. It really wouldn't be that unbelievable that Eddard Stark would slip up once. Besides it's Eddard Stark, the man known for his honor, who's saying that Jon Snow is his son. Would people in the upper circles really be so quick to assume that he's lying?
- Not to mention that the popular rumor that Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother would put the conception at very shortly after Lyanna's death. I think plenty of people could buy the idea that Eddard had a moment of weakness after his sister's death.
- It helps that Ned had a very well-known crush on Ashara Dayne that pre-dated Robert's Rebellion. Folk both great and small love juicy gossip, and Mr. More-Honorable-Than-Thou being Not So Different from any other randy young lordling and tragically driving a beautiful highborn maiden to suicide through his careless love is almost as juicy a story as what really (maybe) happened.
- Joffrey is shown as being uncontrollable by the small council and Cersei, and Tywin sends Tyrion to be the King's Hand for him and rein Joffrey in. When Joffrey has Eddard Stark executed, wouldn't it have been a smart move for Robb to send a message to Joffrey challenging him to single combat? It seems to me that Joffrey has such bad judgement and is so quick to anger that he would accept. Granted Cersei would probably try to sabotage it so Robb loses...
- When Robb's grandfather Rickard did that, it got him, Brandon, Brandon's friends, all the fathers of Brandon's friends, along with all 200 men in his escort killed.
- Is one even allowed to challenge the King to single combat over a grievance like that? I know you can have combat by champion if you are on trial, but that would have been Ned's right, I thought. And of course, Robb would have to run the risk that Joffery would not take his bait and just name Gregor Clegane, and then he's proper fucked.
- Joffrey's stupidity is ever so slightly outweighed by his cowardice. Robb knows that Joffrey is full of shit; he'd figured that out the first time they met.
- Even men like Stannis and the Blackfish are shown turning down such offers, because a) why take the chance of losing and/or b) they don't believe the other side will just surrender if they win.
- From a historical perspective, you absolutely could challenge the king to a duel. It was a really good way to get yourself assassinated before the duel took place, though.
Robert's lousy Kingsguard
- Why was Robert's kingsguard so lousy? How did guys like Boros Blount, Meryn Trant, and Mandon Moore end up in the elite royal guard? Mandon Moore appears very clearly to have been a sociopath, but he was brought in by Jon Arryn. And on the subject of Jon Arryn, what was he thinking when he made Janos Slynt commander of the city watch, when it was fairly obvious that Slynt was not very competent, and certainly turned out not to be trustworthy?
- The Kingsguard I don't know about, but it's mentioned from time to time that one of the ways Littlefinger manages to "make money out of thin air" during Robert's reign is by selling all sorts of offices to the highest bidder.
- True, but would Jon Arryn really have let Baelish auction off places in the Kingsguard? It's one thing to let him sell off positions as tax farmers or customs agents; that's not a good thing, but it's at least understandable. But Robert's bodyguards? For that matter, is the Kingsguard the kind of organization someone would want to buy a place in? They never marry or have legitimate children (they're not really supposed to have children at all, or even to engage in the activity that produces children), and they don't inherit estates or other property. Some of them throughout the history of Westeros have wielded political power, it's true, but that's not the norm, and generally only the Lord Commander has real political influence. But again, would Jon Arryn really have let Littlefinger go that far? Is that how Janos Slynt got his job? Slynt wasn't exactly a rich man, so it seems unlikely he could have bought his post, even if Arryn would have let that position go to the highest bidder.
- In real life, it was not uncommon for families to have excess sons sent away either to military orders or to the church. Maybe Janos' father wanted to get rid of him to keep the secession picture nice and clean. After all, it's hard to say what a man like Janos would do if he was allowed to sniff power.
- There's a few possibilities regarding the Kingsguard. The first is that, as Robert loved him some tournaments, they were simply awarded out as prizes and those guys happened to be good jousters. The other possiblity is that, as Robert spent all his time hunting whores and fucking boars, that the Kingsguard was largely chosen for their discretion rather than skill.
- With five of the seven posts up for grabs after the Rebellion, perhaps quality control was less of a priority.Is there a sense, too, that Cersei pulled strings to get her favourites on the Kingsguard? They all seem loyal to her ahead of her husband.
- It occured to me that the Baratheon Kingsguard's main duty was to protect Cersei and the children, not necessarily Robert himself. He constantly wants/tries to do activities that could be lethal for him given (or because of) his physical shape, yet he never really has them around for safety reasons. Actually it seems even like both Cersei and Robert are content with this arrangement as she's paranoid about protection and he thinks he can handle himself. It would also be safe to assume that he trusted actual Baratheon bannermen more than anyone that could even have the slightest connection to the Lannisters.
- The honor and prestige of the Kingsguard makes it a good political appointment as anything. Under normal circumstances the Kingsguard has a low rate of turnover so there's always a few good knights like Ser Barristan, or the other members of Aerys' Kingsguard, but with the majority of positions vacant it's likely they got plugged up by people that Robert appointed as political favors or as payment. "Sure, I'll raise my levies in support of your rebellion, as long as you promise a spot for my son on your Kingsguard!"
- There had just been a civil war, there's less spare noble sons floating around. Then you can't recruit from the North and the Iron Island for religious reasons or Dorne or the Reach because they were enemies. You have to fill five spots at once. Boros Blount and Meryn Trant were capable when they were chosen, but they got fat and cruel respectively. Mandon Moore is a sociopath but deadly. Aerys Oakheart is naive but gallant. Preston Greenfield is thick but brave. It's also implied that most Kingsguard were around average, it's just the really good and bad who get remembered.
- It was explicitly stated in the first book that at least half of them were Cersei's lackeys. Robert, in his typically neglectful manner, let her stack the Kingsguard with men who were more loyal to her than they were decent knights. Just look at how they dismissed Barristan the Bold, one of the most respected knights alive, period, because they wanted to make Jaimie Lord Commander and give The Hound a white cloak.
Who poisoned Jon Arryn?
- Maester Pycelle said he poisoned Jon Arryn with Tears of Lys because it seemed clear to him the Cersei wanted him to. Then Lysa admitted that she did the exact same thing so she could be with Petyr (whose idea it was in the first place.) Did they both do it, unknowing of the other, for separate reasons? Was Petyr acting on Cersei's orders, and Pycelle just happened to pick up on it as well? Did GRRM make a mistake, or I just read something wrong?
- I'm fairly certain that Maester Pycelle only ever admitted to letting Jon die due to Cersei's wishes. Also, it's highly unlikely that Littlefinger was acting on Cersei's orders; all indications are that he had Jon Arryn killed specifically to draw attention to the Villainous Incest.
- Pycelle knew about the incest and tried to protect the Lannisters by letting Jon Arryn die. Remember he sent away Maester Coleman, who was purging Jon and could have saved him, and did all the "care" himself. He wrongly assumed that Cersei had poisoned Jon. Hilariously, Varys later mentions the Tears of Lys in a council meeting and Pycelle does a double-take, thinking that Varys might have poisoned Jon instead.
- Why is Westerosi society so heavily militarized? This is a realm that hasn't faced a foreign invasion in three hundred years, since which time it has been politically united. Why does every landowner spend so much of his income supporting large bodies of knights and men-at-arms, just to fight the other landowners of his own country? In the real middle ages in Europe, the landowners retained their private military forces and political privileges as long as they did in no small part because their central governments, i.e., the kings, needed them to fight foreign enemies. Why didn't the Targaryens spend three hundred years trying to disarm the landowners as they did the faith, and as real life medieval kings invariably did whenever they could?
- Because prior to that invasion they were seven/eight distinct kingdoms that needed to protect themselves from each other, and being united under Aegon's rule didn't mean they wanted to disarm themselves. The Targaryens didn't have the power to get rid of all the lords' armies, they had only just enough to make them bend the knee. Trying to disarm them would have resulted in revolution by the entire realm. Also, rebellions or other misconduct by lords were not uncommon throughout the Targaryen reign, and the forces of the other lords were needed to put them down.
- The Targaryens had dragons for the first century or so of their rule. They had the power to dictate whatever terms they liked to the landowning class; they extinguished two of the preexisting royal lines. They also did disarm the faith, after all. As for your last point, you are confusing cause and effect: the landowners were not armed because rebellions were not uncommon; rebellions were not uncommon because the landowners were armed.
- No, even with the dragons they didn't have enough power to disarm the realm against the wishes of every single lord in it. Dragons are not invincible, the use and the threat of them was only enough to subdue the kingdoms to the point of accepting Targaryen rulership. Actually fighting all the armies of all the kingdoms with the dragons would have ended with great losses for the native Westerosi but ultimately a Targaryen defeat. That's what they'd face if they insisted on disarming the lords, so why bother trying? Note that the Targaryens made very few changes to the cultures of the kingdoms, adapting themselves to Westeros more than vice versa, such as by adopting the Andal religion and knightly traditions rather than continuing to worship the Valyrian gods. Keeping life much as it had been was one of the selling points for accepting them as monarchs. Disarming the Faith Militant is a much different proposition, as they were much less organized and the Targaryens had the support and force of arms of most of the lords behind them in doing it. Maegor achieved it by putting a bounty on the head of any member of the order.
- I don't know what you're basing your claim that the Targaryens would have ultimately lost on. In any case, you're also ignoring a key fact: supporting large numbers of knights and men-at-arms is very expensive. Why would the Westerosi landowners have wanted to continue paying such expenses if they didn't have to? That, after all, was a big part of why real life medieval kings were in fact able to disarm the nobility over time.
- 1) Vastly superior numbers and the fact that dragons aren't invincible. The conquered monarchs bent the knee because it was the less costly option to them, but that meant joining their strength to the Targaryens' own, not wiping it out. 2) You may not feel they had a good reason to maintain their own levies, but they wouldn't agree. The idea of getting rid of them would seem like suicide to the lords of Westeros, true or not. I think you're overstating the degree to which they were politically unified. They don't trust each other. Think of it less as king with nobles under him and more as emperor with kings under him; that's also a more accurate reflection of Westeros' size.
- The lords of Westeros don't maintain standing armies; they keep levies. In times of war, rebellion or internal strife they call up the bannermen, who call up their levies, and then they have an army. And with good reason, given the state of things in Westeros. They need to maintain some military presence for defense of the realm, as well as defense against other lords, bandits and outlaws, and wild tribes. The Vale is plagued by tribes so powerful that it's too dangerous to travel the region without an armed party. Outlaws and banditry seems fairly common - enough, at least, that a lord would want some men-at-arms and knights to patrol his borders. Consider as well that political rivalries and minor disputes can easily result in open warfare; Ramsay Bolton sent troops to take hold of a neighboring fiefdom, for instance, and the Ironmen are always raiding the coast. Actual standing armies are small, but any of the Seven Kingdoms can call for men to wield weapons and stand in formation.
- Also Westeros seems to have to keep in check many (minor) threats internally and externally that aren't necessarely part of the "system". Examples are the mountain clans in the Vale, pirates in the Narrow Sea or just bandits and outlaws in general. Bigger cities like King's Landing have their own policing service but normally every lord has to protect their property and people on their own (e.g. Bear Island against the Ironborn).
- Its also worth pointing out that in Jon Arryn's lifetime, for example, there was the Greyjoy Rebellion, Robert's Rebellion, Tywin Lannister putting the Reynes and Tarbecks to the sword, the threat of the Kingswood Brotherhood, and the War of the Ninepenny Kings. None of that includes the actual wars and battles that take place in the books themselves. That's a whole lot of warring, and it seems that there was a need for a highly militarized culture.
- Also, soldiers fulfil a lot of the roles we have separate agencies for - they act as police and bodyguards to their Lords, unlike today.
- They have soldiers to fight each other. The kings of England were not that successful in disarming their vassals and centralizing their kingdom up to the time this is based on. It does seem like the Targaryens, having dragons, should have been more successful. So the OP may kind of have a point. But it is parallel to real history.
- Why does Stannis bother with having Courtnay Penrose killed by Melisandre? If he needs to have Robert's bastard to prove the incest, then wouldn't it be a lot easier to just tell Courtnay as opposed to besieging the castle and taking a hit to his own health in order to have it done?
- Cortnay probably wouldn't have believed him about Edric being safe. Also, Stannis needed the castle for strategic purposes and because it was his by rights as Lord Baratheon, and Cortnay was refusing to give it to him despite that.
- Stannis and Melisandre wanted Edric as a Human Sacrifice to call forth a dragon, as he had the blood of the king. Courtnay wouldn't have known that, but he clearly suspected Stannis' motives, and wasn't prepared to trust him.
- But what exactly did Ser Cortnay think Stannis was planning to do with Edric? He knew nothing about Melisandre's rituals and there was no question of Edric having a better claim to the throne since bastards can't inherit-so Stannis had no reason to harm Edric as far as Cortnay was aware.
- The explanation could be actually quite mundane: 1) Stannis does use black magic, but he isn't the type who just straight up lies and 2) he just became the rightful lord of the Stormlands and shouldn't need to explain to his castellan why he wants to see his own nephew nor ask for permission to enter his own castle. Besides, Courtnay would have called BS right away anyway, since Shireen is a half Florent herself just like Edric so she could have been used for the same purpose.
Ned takes the black
- Was it not a very stupid idea to send Ned to the Wall in the first place? Think about it: First of all, you have to get him there. Which means escorting the almost universally well-liked Lord of Winterfell through the North. You would literally have to send an army with him to make sure none of the other lords or his own son just frees him before they even get there (and thus before Ned would have to swear the oath). Even if you get him there safely, Ned is very likely to be on fairly good terms with the Lord Commander, the Starks being one of the few houses to actually consider the Night's Watch at least marginally important. His brother is the First Ranger, his bastard the Commander's steward - he would have plenty of allies at the Wall, who could easily make it seem like he took the oath, but actually didn't. So he could just leave the Wall once his captors (as mentioned, a whole army) return South. And even if everything goes according to plan and Ned is bound to the Night's Watch, he is still a big risk. He would be very likely to become the next Lord Commander, and at the same time have many loyalists throughout the North. He could do what neither Robb nor Jon managed to do, make the Watch join forces with the other Northmen. Yes, Sansa and Arya would be held hostage at King's Landing, but remember, this is what happened anyway. So, executing him - still a stupid choice, because it made a war inevitably. But allowing him to take the black - equally stupid (which Littlefinger probably realized as well, but he had his own agenda). The smartest move would have been to keep him hostage at King's Landing. This would force Robb's loyalty, and keep Ned away from his power base.
- Ned is a man of honor, and so if he had sworn himself to join the Night's Watch then that is what he will do. He wouldn't sully the Watch's honor by trying to unite with the North and wage war on the south. There's no point in having him fake-swear an oath to the Watch anyways, since the Night's Watch are supposed to keep out of political intrigues and are in desperate need of manpower. The whole point of sending Ned to the Wall was to avoid civil war, something that would have been neatly done if they had shipped him off and left Robb as the Lord of Winterfell. Robb would have little motivation to continue the war and next to none to start it anew by attacking a Night's Watch convoy (which would pretty much ruin his credibility with everyone, even the loyal lords in the North). Sansa and Arya would still be hostages, but Sansa would marry Joffrey (becoming his Queen and diminishing her value as a hostage) and Arya might actually accomplish her escape to the North with no war in the Riverlands. The whole reason they wanted to send him to the Wall anyways was to neutralize him as a political enemy without alienating the North and weakening the throne's position. It was a decent plan that only fell apart when Joffrey decided to kill him, because then it made a peaceful resolution impossible. Ned becoming a brother of the Watch wouldn't have been a happy ending, mind you, but it wouldn't have triggered any sort of rebellion in the North.
- Ned is a man of honor, granted, but I would think that even he would at least consider breaking a promise he had to make at swordpoint, to a king he himself considers illegitimate. He would NOT break the vow of the Night's Watch - if he took the black he would stay there, no doubt. But the promise to actually GO there - maybe. Also, don't forget that what I wrote up there is to be understood from the perspective of the Lannisters. It's not so much what WE (the readers) think Ned would do, but what THEY think Ned would do. And his honor was already the only thing that has prevented him from foiling their plans, it was extremely risky to think that he would still feel compelled to uphold a promise made to Joffrey. We know that he may, but from Cersei's point of view that's a gamble. And don't forget that A war was going to happen in any case. It was already clear that at least Stannis would try to seize the throne, and likely Renly as well. The Lannister's knew that Jon Arryn (the first to find out about Joffrey's illegitimacy and a father figure to Ned) had already conspired with Stannis, and Ned himself with Renly. The risk that Ned, if sent back north, would try to get the North involved in the war on either side was very big. Imagine the war of the five kings, only it's just four kings, because Ned has no reason to declare himself King in the North and just supports Stannis. The situation would be exactly the same as it unfolded anyway (Robb was never fighting for the Iron Throne itself, just for independence and revenge), only Ned is a much more experienced commander and would probably prevent the political blunders Robb made concerning his marriage. From the perspective of the Lannisters, executing him should still be safer than sending him back north. But, as I said, the safest thing would be to just keep him around as a hostage, and maybe let him go years later as a sign of goodwill once Joffrey's claim is consolidated (read: when Stannis and Renly are dead). They have him under control, and additionally, it deprives Robb of authority. If Ned dies or takes the black he becomes the successor, but if Ned is still alive and can't leave King's Landing, Robb would be acting Lord of Winterfell, but never truly.
- That's actually a valid point. It has been stated a few times that in court, vows taken from the point of a sword are not considered completely binding (I think mainly marriage, bur YMMV). And there is one further bit of evidence to this theory that some of us are forgetting. Before he was killed, Ned lied about this treason charges FOR THIS DAUGHTERS. His final act proved that even a honourable man like Eddard Stark is willing to break his oaths for his family. Had Ned be ALLOWED to take the black, I am sure Yoren, if not a few Lord in the North, whole free him on the pretexts that he escaped. I agree, had Ned taken the black and said the words, not even Ygritte would have him break his vows, but before then, during the travel? I gotta believe Ned would have been the next King in the North....
- From a Lannister perspective, the ideal consequence is for Ned to go back to Winterfell without ever having said a word against the throne. However, they arrested Ned for treason and from there it was two choices - make him take the black or execute him. Everyone knew that executing him was a stupid idea, and he has a reputation as a man of honor (indeed, that's what got him in that position) and if he says he'll take the black, he'll take the black. Ned is especially notorious for NOT exercising Loophole Abuse. At that point in the story, Robb had already called his Bannermen explicitly to rescue his father and there was war in the Riverlands. Had Ned been exiled to the Watch as intended, Robb would have stood down (after negotiating a prisoner exchange) and the Lannisters would have pulled out of the Riverlands. Then when Stannis showed up, the War of Five Kings would have only been between Renly, Stannis and Joffrey and maybe Balon, since Robb has no reason to rebel against the throne without the motivation of avenging his father's death. Also note that at that point the upcoming war isn't as apparent to the Lannisters as it is to the more savvy characters and to the reader. Even during the actual course of events everyone pegs Stannis as not worth their trouble and Renly as the real threat anyways since it literally took magic for Stannis to gain his strength. And the threat of a combined Lannister/Tully/Stark/Martell/Arryn army might have been enough of a deterrent for Renly and Balon. And maybe Stannis.
- Agreed - especially that last bit. Remember: half of the uprisings that went on during the War of the Five Kings (definitely Balon, quite possibly also Renly and Highgarden) only went on because people smelled blood in the water where the Lannisters were concerned. If they had actually managed to peacefully take down one of the most important enemies — and one of their only enemies who was acting out of principle and not just taking advantage of an opportunity — then they would have showed their strength, and some of their enemies might have lost their nerve and never risen up in the first place.
- Also, remember that Sansa would still be wed to Joffrey and Ned wouldn't risk his daughters. Also since it took Joffrey actually killing Ned for Sansa to realize he was an asshole things might have looked brighter for a while. I also have a hard time imagening ALL of the Watch loving Ned. Just because he has a few close friends and allies doesn't mean he has the influnce to make all of them break their vows and declare war against the kingdom.
The melting point of gold
- How exactly did Khal Drogo melt gold? Gold melts at over 1000 °C, which shouldn't be easy to achieve (especially in the TV Series where you can see the gold melting in a regular cauldron over a campfire).
- Pure rage.
- Fire probably burns hotter than you think. A campfire giving an orange glow is burning between 1100-1200°C, so melting gold is certainly within its power. It would probably take a while though, and the position of the pot might need some careful calibration.
- Rule of Drama.
- According to show people, it's Dothraki hybrid gold.
- Not sure what "hybrid" means, but gold in jewelry is frequently alloyed with copper, and while both gold and copper have melting points over 1000 C, a gold-copper alloy actually is more like 900 C, which a large fire with the right kind of fuel could easily get over. So if by "hybrid" they mean "alloy", it's even more possible.
The Faith of the Seven
- Why does the Faith of Seven not seem to exist at all in Essos? The Faith began among the Andals back when they still lived in Andalos, in northwestern Essos, and the Andals brought it with them when they invaded Westeros. But are we to believe that every Andal crossed the Narrow Sea, and that no adherents of the Faith remained in Essos? It's not as though the Narrow Sea is an insurmountable barrier to a seafaring people, which the Andals obviously were. So what happened to the Faith in Essos?
- We know that is has a small scale practice in Essos, as there's a Sept-Beyond-the-Sea in Braavos, though it may cater mostly to Westerosi sailors. Is it possibly the case that, even though the Faith originated in Essos, it withered and died there, or was eventually displaced by other religions even as it thrived across the Narrow Sea? We are talking a period of 6000 years so it's not like time is lacking. Or is it perhaps the case that religious differences partially motivated the Andals' migration to begin with?
- I'm siding with the argument that it just died out in Essos. This has happened in real life- centuries ago Buddhism's core region was what is now Afghanistan and India, with its teachings being spread east by missionaries bringing the texts and translating them for the local audience. Fast forward to today and Buddhism is strongly associated with East and Southeast Asia while Afghanistan and India are dominantly Muslim and Hindu respectively.
- It probably does exist in Essos – after all, we haven’t exactly seen all of Essos so far. It’s possible the Faith exists on a small scale in the cosmopolitan Free Cities. Or it may exist in a different form in Essos – for example, a sub-sect that believes in only one of the Seven. Or there's a chance that the remaining believers in Essos were been wiped out due to natural calamities or for political reasons. Alternatively, it could be that all adherents of the Faith left Essos, maybe because of religious persecution, as the above troper points out, or maybe they were just a very small community. Theres also the possibility that the Faith originated in Westeros, i.e. the Andals didn’t bring it with them, they developed it only after they came to Westeros.
- Just to give a real life analogy: Buddhism is very much a minority religion in India, its place of origin, but is a majority religion in a number of countries it was "exported" to. And Christians are also not too numerous in their spiritual homeland.
- The timeline for the Andal migration is a little wonky, as in universe sources can't agree on whether it was six, four, or two thousand years before the start of the series. Assuming it was the four thousand number for argument's sake, that would put it about a thousand years after the founding of Valyria while the Freehold was expanding to conquer Essos. Valyria had it's own religion; it could be that the Faith of the Seven, being incompatable with other faiths, came into conflict with the Valyrian faith and like anyone who opposed Valyria, lost out and were driven from Essos by the dragon lords.
- Partially this. While Andal tradition states that Hugor of the Hill (the Andal Abraham/Isaac/Jacob) was promised a distant land for his descendants to settle, the Maesters seem to think that the Andals were most likely influenced by push factors in Essos - mainly the expansion of the Freehold. Note that Andalos is mentioned as being somewhere in the northern periphery of Pentos (as in, it's sovereign lands) where there are frequent border skirmishes with Braavos. This, combined with some offhand Word of Dante which suggests that the Pentoshi have a percentage of Andal blood, may indicate the local Andals were conquered and assimilated into the Valyrian culture, forming a hybrid (at least on the peasant level) culture and being the Essosi equivalent to latinized Germanic tribes. There may even still be septs on a local level throughout the region, assuming they weren't destroyed by the Dothraki, or if they even developed them before leaving Essos.
- Why did Stannis immediately march on King's Landing after taking Storm's End, and why did he attack from the south? Surely he must have realized that even if he had taken the city, the war would not have been over as long as there still were hostile or even potentially hostile armies opposing him in the field? Taking King's Landing doesn't do anything to deal with the Lannister or Tyrell armies. On the other hand, defeat the Lannisters, and defeat or win over the Tyrells, and King's Landing falls easily. And even if he were determined to take the city, why not move his army by sea to the northern side of Blackwater Bay and come at the city from the landward side? That would have seemed to offer some critical advantages. First, he would not have had to attack the city across a river; the Blackwater Rush is wide, deep, and fast. Second, he would have been able to attack on a broader front, since he could have attacked both the western and northern side of the city, which would have enabled him to make maximum use of his numerical advantage over the defenders. Third, he would not have had to march through forests to get at the city; the open country to the north offered two critical advantages: first, he would not have had to deal with Tyrion's clansmen raiders, and, second, he would have been able to see an enemy army advancing on his rear in the flat open country north of the city. Lastly, he knew that there was a potentially hostile Tyrell army at Bitterbridge, which the Lannisters were moving to link up with after their defeat at the Red Fork, (granted, Stannis might not have known that last part in time), and moving his army to the northern side of the river would have kept the river between him and his enemies. And he had complete control of the sea, commanding as he did the royal fleet. So why didn't he use it?
- Stannis is prickly about honor and justice and won't abide a pretender sitting on his throne while the other lords, who are rightfully his to command, shuffle their feet and pretend not to see him. If he takes King's Landing, there's a good chance that the rest of Westeros will fall in line - sure, not the Lannisters or the Northmen, but the rest of them would have no one else to throw their weight behind in Stannis' view. He sends his vanguard up from the south, and the rest of his army will be transported by sea to King's Landing and the north shore. The plan was for the ships to then begin ferrying his troops from the south shore to the north shore and for the ill prepared city to fall within the evening. Tyrion and his plots and schemes stalled him long enough to cause the defeat. Since Stannis planned to have the war all but won within a single evening, he didn't at the time worry about the Tyrells who no longer had a horse to back in this particular race. He might also expected for Tywin's army to be held up by the Northmen in the Riverlands. And it would have been, too, if Edmure hadn't held the fords. It wasn't a bad strategy, per se, it was just reliant on a single, precise cut to the heart of the reigning king. If he'd succeeded, Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen, Cersei, Tyrion and the rest would have died there and then and no one would be left alive with a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne but Stannis. Also, remember that he was assured of his victory by Melisandre and might have expected even the most half-baked strategy to ultimately see him through.
- A small correction: Myrcella was in Dorne and wouldn't have died there and then.
- Even if Stannis knew that, capturing the capital and executing whatever members of the royal family he found there would have tremendous psychological impact. As lampshaded in the riddle of the king, the priest and the rich man each urging the sellsword to kill the other, the impression of power is just as important as armies or gold. This is lampshaded when Cersei says she'd like to move the capital to Casterly Rock, and Jaime points out that it would make the king look like just another pretender if he wasn't in King's Landing.
- Why didn't Littlefinger help the Starks win the war? After all, he wanted Catelyn Stark as his wife. It seems to me that there was a lot he might have done to help the Starks defeat the Lannisters, and he could have negotiated for Catelyn's hand in marriage as his price. I suppose that if Catelyn and Robb were aware that he had betrayed Ned, that would have prevented any such deal, but it's not clear to me that that was common knowledge.
- He'd already moved on to Sansa by this point. He'd asked Cersei permission to marry her even before Ned lost his head. It's almost a shame we don't see what might have happened if Petyr had sabotaged the Lannister side. And Catelyn was so worried about her daughters, she'd have married him easily if he brought Sansa back. In the show, Cat knows of Petyr's role; in the books, she thinks fondly of him on occasion.
- Littlefinger did offer to help Ned (in a way that would also put him in a position of power) but when Ned Stark turned down his suggestion of making peace with the Lannisters he switched sides so Cersei would owe him a favour instead. Taking sides then (even covertly) against the rich, powerful and cunning Lord Tywin Lannister would be a big risk, so it makes sense for him to just sit back and watch to see how things develop. As it happened, by waiting for the right moment before offering his services, Petyr gains control over both the Vale and the Reach, while the Starks and Tullys against whom he has a longstanding grudge end up losing everything.
Ned stays on as Hand
- Why did Eddard agree to stay on as Robert's Hand after Jaime killed Jory and Eddard's other men? Robert had once again refused to listen to Eddard or take his advice. In fact, in the entire time that Eddard was Robert's Hand, Robert never took Eddard's advice about anything, ever. He didn't listen to Eddard about what happened with Joffrey on the Kingsroad, he didn't listen about the unaffordable expense of the tourney, or the need to cut spending more generally, he didn't listen about trying to have Dany killed, and then, he didn't listen about the need to punish Jaime for the murders, or the legitimate reasons for arresting Tyrion. In fact, the only time Eddard wielded any power at all as Robert's Hand was while Robert was away, and Eddard ordered the execution of Gregor Clegane. And we all know how that turned out. So why didn't Eddard just refuse to come back? Why not calmly explain to Robert that, for all their friendship, Robert obviously didn't think Eddard's counsel was any good, or worth listening to, and that Robert, therefore, should have found a Hand whose advice he liked better? Why not say, in effect, 'Robert, I want to help you, but I'm obviously not helping you, so what's the point?'
- Because Robert told him that if he resigned again, he'd name Jaime Lannister Hand and that is the last thing in the world Ned wants.
- Would Robert really have done that? I got the impression that he was being sarcastic. Would Eddard really have given in to that sort of crude extortion?
- Robert might not actually offer it to Jaime (Kingsguard not historically making good Hands), but it's a very good worst-case scenario to hold over Ned, and there's always the chance that Cersei gets him to name Tywin or Kevan, either of whom would be better suited to the position and therefore worse for Ned to have to deal with, especially given that Tyrion's arrest has already happened and the Mountain is in or on his way to the Riverlands.
- When it comes down to it, Eddard is loyal to his friend. He knows that the king's life is in danger, and that the regime owes a vast amount of money to the Lannisters, which they're using as leverage to gain powerful offices. He'd have to take the threat seriously.
- Because he knows that he is still probably the best option. He failed so far, but he might still hope to change Robert's mind in the future. Jaime Lannister was an empty threat, obviously, but if Ned quits SOMEONE less trustworthy is going to be appointed. And it's probably going to be someone of the Lannister's choosing.
- Robert didn't choose Ned to be Hand of the King to contradict him; he chose Ned because he needs him to defend him from the Lannisters and to rule the Seven Kingdoms in his stead just like Jon Arryn did before him. There is not much evidence suggesting that Jon Arryn contradicted Robert like Ned did, as this was not the kind of influence he had over Robert, considering as Viserys said, there had been attempts against his life from King Robert before AGOT; as such it's safe to assume that Jon Arryn didn't/was unable to hinder Robert from his plots. Then again, Ned is not Jon Arryn. As Ned can go through Robert unlike Jon Arryn, he takes the office of the Hand once again because he believes that he can sway his friend and King.
The Economics of Robert's Bankruptcy
- How, exactly, did Robert bankrupt the realm? Aerys left the coffers overflowing and Robert had the financial genius that is Littlefinger working for him. It's mentioned that Robert held an over abundance of tourneys and feasts, but tourneys were mentioned as being a big boon to the economy and unless those feasts involved smelting entirely new sets of jewel-encrusted gold plates and silver-wear each time he threw one, I'm having a hard time believing that drove the kingdom into more than six million dragons in debt.
- Oh, that's easy. Lot's of medieval kings managed to do that. Read the history of the reign of Henry VI, who managed to bankrupt England (the books are inspired, loosely, by the Wars of the Roses, after all); he was giving away money to fund charities and educational institutions, while his wife (who, or rather, whose image in Yorkist propaganda, may have been the inspiration for Cersei) was giving away money and crown lands to her favorites. The simple fact is, though, that it's not hard to spend money. Consider that Robert managed to spend 150,000 gold dragons for the one tournament for Ned; Robert was throwing multiple events like that every year. Don't forget, too, that Robert had to fund the war against the Greyjoys, and his initial rebellion; it's not unlikely that some portion of Aerys' treasury went to pay Robert's debts from the war. Also, Littlefinger argued that the tourney would be good for the economy. You should not treat everything Littlefinger says as having come down from Mt. Sinai. Proponents of government spending always argue that it will stimulate the economy. The truth is that it usually only moves wealth around, wasting some in the process.
- Government spending can stimulate the economy...if it is allocated to the right sectors. The tournament basically hands a sizable portion of the king's treasury to the winner for a few jousts and melees, instead of devoting it to development and infrastructure. Littlefinger was able to generate a lot of funds as Master of Coin, but because of his acumen, others are likely to believe him because, well, how could he be wrong?
- The stimulation of the economy comes from people arriving in Kings Landing, staying at inns, buying food and armor, paying whores, etc so money goes to smiths, innkeepers, madams and merchants. Not giving money to rich sons of lords. Few of the knights we see competing are doing it for the winners' purses either. Jaime, Loras, the Hound, Beric etc are doing it for a love of the sport, to get their name in history or to defend their title. A better way might be to make the purses smaller and for the Crown to subsidize, say, armour.
- Littlefinger wasn't Robert's first master of coin either. Ned mentions LF's "beleaguered predecessor", whom Robert appointed as a political boon but who wasn't very good. Robert would have had post-war expenses too: build a new fleet of ships to take Dragonstone, a lavish wedding to Cersei, buy food to ensure that displaced-by-war smallfolk didn't starve, etc. LF is certainly lying - his job security is derived from that fact that there is no one else who can pay the Crown's debts. It's in his interest to ensure that the debts are never paid off. Why Jon Arryn didn't interfere on the other hand is the real question.
- Arryn did try to interfere — Robert just wouldn't curb his spending.
- The popular theory currently is that Littlefinger purposely bankrupted the realm for shits and giggles (well not really). Littlefinger is noted as being incredibly business-savvy and shrewd, purchasing food supplies when they are in low demand and being involved in many other enterprises that provide him with a steady flow of gold. It is also stated later on that Littlefinger's family is from Braavos, where the Iron Bank is located. Also, I believe someone on Reddit did the math and actually calculated the amount and frequency of tourneys Robert would have to have held to put the realm in such debt.
- Given how quickly Littlefinger became one of the richest men in Westeros, it also seems quite plausible to suggest that he was embezzling some of the crown's funds. It wouldn't be hard to do with how complex his money management schemes were.
- First, the only one who is appaled about the state of the realm's treasury is Eddard. Who is used to ruling a very poor segment of the kingdom and overall can't tell left from right in finances. In AFFC we learn that even after a bloody civil war and with large parts of the Seven Kingdoms still in rebellion, the Iron Throne can service its debts, assuming no more extraordinary spending. Second, it is highly questionable whether the rule of Jon Arryn was aimed to make the crown strong, rather than weak and incapable of dominating regional lords. The decision to divide the lands between Baratheon brothers, with the implication that Dragonstone will go to Stannis' heirs and the Stormlands to Renly's heirs implies the latter.
- Why is it desertion/oathbreaking for Jon to fight Ramsay Bolton? In his letter, he promised to attack the Watch if his demands weren't met, and Jon couldn't meet the demands even if that was the correct thing to do, since he doesn't have the people Ramsay wants. It's hard to believe that the rule about taking no part extends to the Watch not defending itself if the enemy happens to be from south of the Wall.
- Defending yourself from southern attacks? That's probably fine. Engaging in preemptive strikes because of one guy's possibly empty threat? That's taking a side.
- So they're supposed to wait until the enemy's already at the non-exitistent gate of the deliberately indefensible castle? That letter was basically a declaration of war.
- Yeah, from a crazy dumbass who sent it entirely to taunt Jon. He might have been being honest, but it's just as likely that he was full of shit and wasn't actually going to follow through.
- Castle Black can't be defended from this side of the wall. They just barely managed to defend it against the wildlings, and now they're in worse straits than ever. They can't take the risk. If you declare war on someone, they're entitled to defend themselves. And I would submit that you'd have to be a crazy dumbass to declare war on the Watch.
- Even if he was being serious about attacking the Watch, what are the odds that Roose would let him go through with it? There's nothing to be gained by attacking the Night's Watch, and doing so would be a waste of time and resources.
- The point isn't whether he would do it, the point is that he said he would and now can't complain when the threat is taken seriously. It's not as though Jon was going to weigh in on the question of who gets the iron throne, just take on a bit-player. If you say you have a bomb at an airport, even if you're obviously not serious, what do you expect to happen? The Watch would be idiotic not to take the threat (which might be empty, but isn't obviously so) seriously, given that they can't defend Castle Black.
- There's a sense of it being the 'final straw', with all Jon's other decisions and alleged swayed loyalties — helping Stannis, being too close to the Red Woman, letting Wildlings through the wall, settling them on land in the North, even letting them join the Night's Watch. Remember Jon's been the subject of a determined smear campaign by his enemies.
- Because they assume that Ramsay only threatens the Watch because they cooperated with Stannis. From their point of view it's very likely that Ramsay would back off if they get rid of Melisandre and the remainder of Stannis host. And they think that Jon is in their way of doing that.
- Also notice that the people who cheerfully volunteered to follow Jon against Ramsay were Wildlings. The Lord Commander was about to lead Wildlings against the northern lords. What was it Jon thought of Mance before what he thought was his execution? "He did nothing but lead an army of Wildlings against the realm he had sworn to defend", was it?
He Who Passes the Sentence Swings the Sword
- When Robb executes Rickard Karstark, much is made of his observance of the old Stark way of the man who passes the sentence swinging the sword. Just pages before this, he ordered the hanging of Rickard's five conspirators. Why isn't it the same for them?
- A man only has so much time in a day. I don't imagine Lord Eddard went around lopping the hands off every thief or head off every traitor in the north. Robb had other things to deal with and only executed Rickard himself to make an example of him.
- Also, they were all being executed for the same crime, the whole point of the "do your own justice" thing is proving that you really are willing to condemn people to death by doing it yourself. Robb killed the guy who was in charge of it, he doesn't need to do it to all of the prisoners.
- Why doesn't Melisandre use her leech and fire trick again? Granted, we don't know that it actually works for sure but the people around her believe that it does and she's practically awash with kings' blood in Dance with Jon (a king's brother, or, if not, certainly still king's blood), Shireen, and a wildling leader who uses "Kingsblood" as an epithet (granted he's several generations removed and probably descended from a King-Beyond-The-Wall's brother but that's still a blood tie and apparently Kings Beyond The Wall count); so why has nobody suggested that she curse Euron and Tommen like she did the others, with Tommen gone Stannis' claim would be a lot, lot stronger because Tommen is the other male claimant whose claim derives from Robert?
- Just guessing here, but while killing Robb did have an effect, killing Joffrey and Balon just led to other people stepping up to take their place. Maybe she thinks that will only happen again?
- That is if you believe her leech and fire trick did anything. Robb was killed by a Bolton/Lannister/Frey plot. Balon by Euron. Joffrey by Littlefinger/Tyrells. It's more likely that Mellissandre predicted their deaths and that's why she names them. To try and make it look like she has more power than she really does.
- She can't use Jon's blood because he's a king's brother instead of a king's son, same reason why she couldn't use Stannnis or Renly's blood despite being Robert's brothers. And even if she could, she had denounced Robb as a pretender king, therefore even if his blood would work, she might not do it on general principle.
- What about Mance? Even if the leech trick is actually just theatrics (and the fact that she didn't try to use Mance's blood for anything similar might support this), the point is that the people around her seem to believe it; they think that they saw her use Edric Storm's blood to "kill" the other three kings, and they think that they captured and killed Mance, so it seems odd that none of them are wondering what Mance's death was meant to achieve. Bear in mind that if Tommen was to suddently die, Stannis would be Robert's heir in the eyes of everyone except the Dornish and because most of the Kingdoms have a Dany shaped blind-spot, many nobles would have probably rallied to him because they saw him as the only remaining claimant of the Iron Throne, at least until "Aegon" arrived
- Actually, Myrcella would still be Robert's heir before Stannis after Tommen's death if the Lannisters ignored the old Targaryen rule about female inheritors to the Iron Throne coming after all male ones (established in the first Dance of the Dragons), which they would, because it's to their advantage to do so. And they can justify it because Stannis was attainted for his "rebellion", and because they're not Targaryens.
- Well, Jon, being a Stark bastard, does have the blood of the Kings of Winter in his veins. Though, maybe being three hundred years removed makes it too weak.
- Melisandre explains that right after the death of Robb: Other would rise up and claim to be kings. Stannis believes that his claims are already proven well beyond doubt, and that all nobles who don't follow him already are simply searching for an excuse to not give him the throne, because they fear and dislike him. And let's be honest, he's not far off with that.
What makes a knight?
- I don't think I've ever fully understood knighthoods in Westeros. It's clear that the position has religious dimensions (Dany first sees Ser Jorah, Illyrio describes him as having been "Anointed with the Seven Oils by the High Septon himself"). Luwin tells Bran, "To be a knight you must stand your vigil in a sept, and be anointed with seven oils to consecrate your vows. In the north, only a few of the great houses worship the Seven. The rest honor the old gods, and name no knights" Yet he still estimates 300 knights in the host that Robb rides south with, which seems a lot, considering, but perhaps the Seven have more sway in some parts of the North than others. But how would a man like Rodrik Cassel (from Winterfell, where there are a apparently so few followers of the Seven that Ned built a small sept specifically for Catelyn) end up being a ser?
- The hard and dirty rule seems to be that "any knight can make a knight." The religious stuff seems to provide the motivation for making a knight rather than the actual mechanism. In other words — all you *really* need to become a knight is to be dubbed by another knight. So, any knight in the North technically CAN make a knight. It's just that few actually bother to do so, because if you don't worship the Seven you might just not see the point. It's like getting married — technically, all sorts of people can marry a couple, from ship captains to government officials, but many people don't feel right if they don't get married in a church, and people who aren't religious might not see the point of getting married at all. (I'm setting aside Luwin's statement because it was, I think, in the first book, which had a number of inaccuracies like that).
- So a relatively rare case of Early Installment Weirdness? Later on Beric makes Gendry a knight without any of that "standing in a sept" stuff.
- Yeah, they're rare, but a few do crop up. I can't remember the details, but there was some kind of observation about Jaime (?) possibly becoming Warden of the East after Jon Arryn's death, which shouldn't have been an option based on the rules that the later books establish, something that GRRM later admitted was just a mistake. Also, Tyrion's tumbling abilities (which pop up in the first book when he does some kind of flip off a gargoyle the first time he meets Jon Snow) were supposed to be dropped until GRRM decided he wanted to make them canonical after all in the latest book. Little things like that.
- That's the formal version of the whole knighting shebang, being told to a boy of eight. In actual wartime conditions, most of that would be ignored.
- In medieval times, knights were men expected to uphold a level of religious piety, essentially making them warrior monks. In practice, devout adherence to religion was often overlooked. Knighthood in Westeros is a tradition associated with worship of the Seven. The Northmen - who don't believe in the Seven - do not have knighthood. If you are a Northman who worships the Seven, however, you can indeed be knighted. A knight can make another knight and in wartime being knighted is more along the lines of a field promotion as opposed to the great honor it is in peacetime.
- Is the "knight can make a knight" thing ever explicitly described as being a wartime measure? And doesn't the original question stand: even if the religious dimensions of the position are now an artifact (after all, somebody like Gregor Clegane is leagues removed from a warrior monk), doesn't the North still have way more knights than makes sense?
- In reality the conditions of knighthood differed depending on date and locale. A knight could make a knight, though only knightly orders really utilized the ability. The North is half of the continent of Westeros, so having only 300 knights ride with Robb Stark strikes me as lowballing it.
- Half the continent, but by far the least populated of the Seven Kingdoms. Still, 300 out of 18-20,000 hardly seems like a lot when the other kingdoms were fielding at least over a thousand knights each.
- These "knights" are probably from White Harbour, which is part of the North that actually has the Faith as their dominant religion.
- The exact number given by Luwin is "three hundred, perhaps four... among three thousand armored lances who are not knights" (emphasis added). As far as that indicates, Robb has plenty of men who are geared and fight like knights, without actually being them.
- Again, the key here (as far as I can tell) is that it's not that the North *couldn't* make knights so much as that they *didn't,* since it's a semi-religious office in a religion that they largely didn't practice. Robb's lack of knights certainly didn't hold him back in battle, so it sounds like he had plenty of people who could fight like knights and arm themselves like knights — just not a lot of people who had been officially granted that title. (Luwin's story was probably the simplified version of that story that you'd tell to a little kid who believed that the Seven were literally real and had one parent who believed in them and one who didn't).
- May it be the case that men like Jorah Mormont or Rodrik Cassel were knighted for their service in either Robert's Rebellion or the Greyjoy Rebellion (this is explicit in Jorah's case), and might not have ever been if they only saw service in the North. After all, one can't imagine Robert cares too much about the religious end of knighthoods, and such men would accept the honour if proposed even if they don't follow the Seven.
- They may also have been fostered in the south as children. They could have either picked up the Faith or squired for a knight and been rewarded with knighthood. Also, being a quasi-religious position and an actual title of nobility has constantly blurred the lines. Walder Frey had Olyvar Frey squire for Robb with the expectation that he would be knighted so apparently the issue of religion doesn't crop up too often.
- There's also the fact that none of knights in Stannis's service, including the Queen's Men, who are apparently devout followers of R'hllor (Axell Florent, in particular), seem to find it necessary to renounce their knighthoods. This is somewhat odd if knighthood is a quasi-religious office specific to the Seven.
- It is possible that some of the individuals were (re)-knighted by Stannis himself, either before or after he "converted" to R'hllorism. For instance, iirc, there isn't an indication that Davos was anointed with the holy oils, just that Stannis knighted him and gave him a keep. For anyone knighted after Stannis's "conversion" (e.g. Clayton Suggs), it seems plausible that being dubbed by Lightbringer is the substitute for the traditional Seven-based knighting procedure.
- There's also Ser Bartimus at White Harbour, a knight who explicitly keeps the old gods.
- Minor one, but in A Dance with Dragons when Asha and her men are fighting the northerners after evacuating Deepwood Motte, mention is made that one of the northerners grabs her hair but can't get a good grip because it's too short. Later, when she is fighting the northerner champion, when he finally gets her his axe head crashes into her temple, and the narrations notes the sound of steel on steel. Did her helmet just appear out of nowhere, or am I missing something?
- She probably grabbed one off a corpse during the battle, iirc in that scene she kinda zones out into full on combat mode and doesn't narrate a lot of the action in the middle of the fight.
- I don't recall exactly how long her hair is, but it's also possible she was wearing a helmet the whole time, but it was a small enough helment that some of her hair hung below it (but not enough to grab onto). If her hair is particularly short, though, this wouldn't work.
Aerys' caches of wildfire
- After stopping Aerys from burning down King's Landing, Jaime kills the two remaining pyromancers deemed responsible for the plot, which included planting secret caches of wildfire at several locations in the city. Years later, large amounts of wildfire are discovered underneath the Great Sept of Baelor, something Hallyne tells Tyrion, which we can put together are presumably leftovers from this plot (though Hallyne presumably does not know this). I've always been a bit hazy as to why Jaime never seems to tell anyone about this plot, but perhaps he still feels compelled to do his duty and keep the king's secrets. Still, the fact that there are still hidden piles of wildfire at various spots of King's Landing, designed to burn down the city if ignited, makes me very happy that I do not live in King's Landing. Is the implication that Jaime just left them undisturbed? I guess so, unless I missed something, because removing them himself is not within his means. He is a brave man, walking the streets of the city fully aware that a couple of sparks could result in it burning down at any moment!
- He may not have known where they were, and didn't know where to obtain a map of their locations. Though it's still weird that he never mentioned it to anyone.
- Rereading the passage, it really seems that these wildfire caches are everywhere: "all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself." That makes it seems like 14 or 15 is a conservative estimate of how many there are, and only one is accounted for. The wonder may be that King's Landing 'hasn't' burned down (especially that none of these got sparked during the Battle of Blackwater)!
- They might not actually be that volatile. Sure, the wildfire itself is, but if they are stored in secure, enclosed storage rooms, there is little danger of them being ignited by accident, even if a battle is going on above them. Or at least that's what Jaime might have thought. Consider this line of thinking: "I have killed the people who knew where the wildfire was. It is not within my means to remove it, because I don't know where it all is, and even if I did, I can't recover and dispose of it by myself. If I want to do that I have to tell other people that this city has a built-in self-destruct mechanism." And you know what, these other people might as well decide that this is actually a very good strategy. Jaime didn't have much trust for either Tywin or Robert, so from his perspective, it's better to just keep quiet about it and hope that the wildfire is secure enough.
The Bastards of Pyke
- Why do bastards of the Iron Islands get the surname 'Pyke', even if they aren't from Pyke, rather than 'Iron' or some other alternative closer to the other bastard surnames?
- One of the many ways the Ironmen are culturally distinct from the rest of Westeros.
- Could also simply refer to pike, a predatory fish, given the Iron Islands' symbolism and geographical location.
- Except that pikes are freshwater fish, and if anything would be more associated with the "green lands' than the Iron Islands, which don't strike me as having a lot of standing water.
The Unsullied have no Restraining Bolt
- After reading about how Dayenerys ransacked the slaver city in "Storm of swords", I have to ask, did the slavers honestly not see that coming or think of any safeguards? If I had just spent my entire fortune, including a potentially formidable monster, but managed to buy myself an entirety of city's militia to do my every bidding, I would've probably done the same thing, even if the residents weren't such horrible people. Because an army and enough money to buy an army is better than just an army and besides, I wouldn't want the slavers to sell the next army to my enemies, would I? If the slavers so rigourously conditioned the slaves, wouldn't the very first thing they'd whip into their bio-robots be "Never, ever, under any circumstances, attack us"?
- I just took it that these slavers/merchants were just so utterly complacent that they never expected something like this to happen. Spend a lifetime or so with slaves and servants obeying your every whim, it makes being betrayed (especially so suddenly...) a shock. Also remember that they fully expected Drogon to simply allow them to control him, despite the fact that it is a quasi-intelligent animal that lived its whole life with its mother, and was suddenly being taken by strange men. As for the "Train them to not attack us" thing, their number one and ONLY priority was Obedience. Obey your Masters, no matter the cost. You put in one exception, it may end up compromising the whole thing. "If we shouldn't attack them, even after we get new masters, why should we attack our mothers? Our kin? Our dogs? Other men? Anything at all?" Exceptions have a tendency to breed further exceptions, and may have compromised the Unsullied entirely. They already had to cut out any that showed any weakness as it was, which was presumably many.
- Evil Cannot Comprehend Good. The Good Masters apparently believed that their customer's desire for repeat business combined with them being the only shop in town to buy Unsullied gave them Ultimate Job Protection. They were notably hesitant to sell all of their Unsullied to Dany on general principle; presumably, if it weren't for the fact she was paying in dragon, they would have refused and only sold her a few thousand.
- Remember, they were telling Dany that any slaves she takes could be sold to them so they can make more Unsullied for her to buy. They didn't even consider that she was displeased by the whole "buying and selling people" business.
- Consider that they were the only people who could (and did) produce Unsullied. They didn't discriminate between their customers, they sold to everybody. And everybody wants to make sure they can maintain the source of their Unsullied. Of course everybody would theoretically like to seize the whole operation. But if they do that, they open themselves up to war from all the other customers, starting a war while cutting off their source of Unsullied at the same time. Furthermore, under ordinary circumstances the slavers would have a large army of Unsullied to protect them. In the real world, this is more or less why Switzerland has been able to maintain its famed neutrality, only with less torture.
- Not to mention that Astapor presumably has the same sort of internal political backstabbing as every other state in the setting, and presumably all these internal conflicts would be carried out using Unsullied. If they were conditioned to never harm the slavemasters, then they wouldn't do anything if their current owner was attacked by another master.
- Correct, it is implausible. Historically, slave soldiers like the Mamelukes were highly privileged, rich, slaves mostly in name - and they killed their masters and took over Egypt anyway.
- How the hell did Ramsay know that Roose Bolton was his father? I read on the wiki that Roose had given Ramsay's mother a farm in exchange for keeping Ramsay's paternity a secret, then Reek was sent, also told not to tell him. So, how did he figure it out?
- You didn't read the book? Roose's trueborn son found out he had a bastard brother somewhere, got it into his head that he should be close to his brother against his father's advice, went to look for him, found him, and for some reason (wink, wink) died of a bellyache some time later.
- Even before that it was pretty clear that Ramsay's mother and Reek did in fact tell him who his father was, and it was his mother who got into his head that he should be his father's heir.
- And why exactly is Roose content to have Ramsay as his heir? He's pretty convinced that he had his legitimate heir killed and knows Ramsay is spying on him, so why does he allow him to live? He doesn't exactly seem like the type to be overly bothered by due process so give him a show trial (if that) and have the guy executed. Somebody who's already committed one murder to get him closer to a Lordship doesn't seem like the sort of person you want as your heir!
- Roose is quite cheerfully sociopathic, so he doesn't mind Ramsay's... foibles that much. Not that he was particularly inclined to keep him around, really. Circumstances simply arranged themselves so that Ramsay become a legitimate candidate. He was perfectly willing to let the Starks have his head when he became inconvenient.
- Being sociopathic is one thing: having a bastard who's already performed one assassination to get to the top is another when you're the next one up. And until Ramsay is removed (hell, try him for murdering Roose's legitimate heir, he may even have done that!) he can't produce another heir (Ramsay would just off him too). So why hasn't Roose got rid of him already - Joker Immunity only stretches so far!
- And let's not forget that Roose freely admits (to Theon — so I wouldn't rule out a certain calculated strategy involved) that Ramsay would likely murder any rival child Roose conceives. Possibly Roose's emotionless, leeched-out psyche is prepared to just passively accepted this — or perhaps he has a plan to deal with Ramsay down the line. It's not like the book is ignoring any of these things. It's just that Roose's motivations are not clear yet. No doubt, light will be shed on them in the future.
- The implication does appear to be that Roose just doesn't care about anything that happens after he dies. Any heir he could replace Ramsay with would not come of age early enough for him to see it and be interested by it.
- IIRC, Roose told Theon he didn't want to do away with Ramsay and replace him with another heir, as he'd die before the kid came of age and "boy lords are the bane of any house". Given that he'd just watched Robb botch the Stark line and heard enough stories about Joffery putting House Baratheon down the crapper, it's hard to disagree.
Cersei and the Idiot Ball
- I have been wondering about this for a while,but just what the hell is wrong with Cersei? In a GOT she was cruel, malicious and overall a Grade-A bitch,but she seemed to be pretty intelligent and competent. Yet by the time of AFFC & ADWD she is making decisions that even a complete novice in politics would hesitate to make,and is so obsessed with Margaery that she can't think about her without feeling that the girl needs to be attended to by a headsman. Doesn't she realize that the moment Margaery dies,she and her offsprings(and likely the whole of House Lannister) is doomed?(Because from what we have seen of Mace Tyrell,I don't think he is one to accept the execution of his daughter quietly,and House Lannister is definitely not strong enough to take on the Reach and win right now).Then we find out that she was planning to have Doran Martell's son killed,which would have dashed all hopes of a Dornish alliance to bits. I realize that Joffrey's and Tywin's deaths made her paranoid,and also that she wants to hog all the power,but these moves seem to be bordering on outright lunacy.
- Cersei is becoming more unhinged as the series progresses. In the first book, she's just trying to keep her secret under wraps whilst balancing a vitriolic marriage. When she makes herself Queen Regent, she starts drinking more heavily and becomes much more defensive of her family and her personal power. And as her enemies increase, so does her paranoia. As her perceived victories increase, so does her confidence. Essentially, it boils down to the fact that she's not nearly as savvy as she thinks. Her power and the scope of her plots, as well as her confidence, increase at the same rate that her paranoia and dependency on alcohol do without a matching increase in ability. Imagine if King Robert hadn't allowed his more competent advisers rule the kingdom.
- It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you. Cersei is, in fact, beset on all sides by enemies and is overreacting to the stress of it.
- Mightn't one say that when you're surrounded by enemies is precisely the time not to becoming paranoid, lest you lose the discernment to tell friend from foe? It's more a case of, to quote Golda Meir, that "Paranoids have real enemies." Cersei's paranoia has done her no favours — take, for instance, for ordering the assassination of the previous High Septon, somebody who meant little real threat to her, which not only opened for her to be justly prosecuted for the crime but led to his office being filled by somebody far more ambitious and (to Cersei) politically dangerous.
- Yes? Just in the short time before her POV chapters start, her oldest son is murdered, her brother is convicted for it, he escapes with the help of her other brother and kills her father on the way out. She doesn't have many friends left, if any at all. Being under that kind of constant stress is cracking her up.
- Let's not forget that Cersei makes one enormous mistake in the first novel: not being able to predict or control Joffrey. The veneer of her competence unraveled the instant of Ned Stark's execution, and one way or another, she has been paying for it ever since.
- To build on this point, it's worth noticing that Cersei's reaction to Joff's death is to completely overcompensate in the other direction with Tommen. She couldn't control Joffrey, so she tried to clutch Tommen's authority as close as possible, which is when things started slipping through her hands.
- Then again, she has had a bit of luck so far. The plan that she concocted to kill King Robert had a tremendous risk if Robert had survived the hunt because it had a factor that she couldn't rely on, which was the boar itself. In the end, it played out in her favor, but no thanks to her intervention. The ways it could've gone awry for her are too many to consider. This is a plan that she entirely relied on, and it could have meant her head and her children's mounted on spikes. Consider that the next thing she comes up with, the plot against the son of Doran Martell, was as thinly veiled and flimsy as the first plan and fortunately for her, it did not carry major consequences. She has been so far really lucky-stupid.
- It might be a matter of perspective. Cersei is considered at her most dangerous in the first book when she is seen through the eyes of Eddard, who wouldn't know a plot if it danced in front of him. *coughLittlefingercough* Then we see her from Tyrion's perspective and see she's not that intelligent. By AFFC, we're inside her head and can see her poor logic and decision making skills first hand.
- It's also important to note that Cersei is not out to protect the realm, she's out to protect her children. She makes a lot of stupid decisions that could turn a lot of powerful houses against King's Landing because she is motivated by short-sighted desires to keep her kids out of trouble. Margaery influencing Tommen too much? Plant evidence to make it look like she's sleeping with half of King's Landing. Dorne having suspicious designs involving Myrcella? Just off the little prince they're planning on marrying her to. She's not too concerned with how any of this will affect the realm. Furthermore, she's very prideful—she thinks herself a genius and everyone else stupid. It's not that she doesn't realize what could happen if she were caught, it's that she doesn't believe anyone capable of catching her.
- Another point - Cersei thinks she is Tywin the Second. She believes that she is coming up with clever plots just like dear old Dad. But as Jaime points out, she's too impatient to think of the multiple ways the situation could turn out, unlike Tywin, who carefully considers the options. Her thinking is completely linear; Action A will lead to Result B, and a result of C just doesn't occur to her.
Night's Watchman crosses the Wall
- Currently reading the first book, and am a little confused by the first chapter, in which a Night Watchman who was patrolling north of the Wall deserts and is captured south of the Wall. Which crosses the entire continent and is 700 feet high. How did he get past the Wall in order to be taken by Stark's men? And if there's a way around the Wall, or a way over or through it that won't be spotted by the thousands of men constantly patrolling the Wall, why aren't the Wildings using it to raid south into Stark territory?
- They are, in fact. Like the ones that attack Bran, Robb and Theon in the woods.
- Yes, I just got to that part. But then... what's the point of the Wall? I thought it was at least partly to keep the Wildings out, at least now that the White Walkers are considered mythical. Or is it just a sign of how far the Watch has fallen, that they can't stop people from getting around it? The Wall itself is noted to be so thick that multiple gates have to be unlocked to go through, which means they're going around... hm, for that matter, do Wildlings have access to ships? And if not, does that mean the Wall doesn't really cross the whole continent?
- "Or is it just a sign of how far the Watch has fallen, that they can't stop people from getting around it?" Indeed it is. The Watch is in a trully woeful state, undermanned and spread thin. Most of the guard keeps along the wall are abandoned and fallen into disrepair. Wildlings are either climbing over (dangerous, but possible) or using passages in those abandoned keeps.
- It's definitely a sign of the Watch getting weaker. Out of 19 castles on the Wall, only 3 are manned.
- Though impressive, The Wall has one logical weakness; the sea. There's mention of increased numbers of Wildlings slipping past the Shadow Tower, which guards the western edge of The Wall near the sea. Add that to the fact that some Wildlings scale the wall in the third book and the fact that it's possible he deserted after coming back through the Wall and there are plenty of ways for him to get past.
- Another point from later books, about the purpose of the Wall: a 700-foot-high, 100-league-long wall is not what you build when you want to keep out a few tribes of raiders.
- Gared had been in the Watch even longer than Mormont. He probably knew how to slip around it. By the time he's captured, he's also half-mad and extremely ragged, so we can't be sure how much time he spent trying to sneak past the Wall.
World of No Grandparents
- Why aren't there more Starks and Baratheons? The starks do have a few charter houses(like the Karstarks), and the Baratheons are the youngest great house in Westeros, but still, with the dozens of Lannisters running around, you'd think we'd hear about more Stark and Baratheon cousins. Yet these two houses seem to have been wittled down to one family each.
- Well, the Starks are known to have almost gone extinct as a family name on the century before the start of the series, when the only living Starks were women. One could assume one of these Stark women had her husband take her surname (instead of the other way around, as is usual) in order to continue the legacy, while the others didn't, so the family was extremely reduced in numbers, and is just now recovering (or would be, if this wasn't A Song of Ice and Fire, where major characters die like flies). As of now, the family may be heading to a similar bottleneck, with Robb dead and Bran probably incapable of reproduction. Only Rickon, Jon (if he's alive and gets legitimised) and the females are left.
- There would be more Starks and Baratheons, but recent events (and their respective locations) make it difficult to amass large families for these houses. The North is a harsh and unforgiving place in the best of times and being on the frontline of any major Wildling invasion does wonders for cutting down the average Stark lifespan. There's also the fact that Ned's brother Brandon, his father and perhaps even a few distant Stark relations were slaughtered by the Mad King and Benjen took the black, leaving Ned to maintain the Stark legacy (and for his part, he did have six kids. Fate just conspired against him). The Baratheons live in the Stormlands, so named for the frequent and terrible storms that rage along the coast. As you say, they are the youngest great house, and the parents of the Baratheon brothers were killed in a shipwreck, eliminating any chance of more sons or a daughter. It's possible that both of these houses do have cousins and other distant familial relations; the simply do not have the Stark or Baratheon surname (at one point it is mentioned that the Starks have relations to some nobility in the Vale).
- Mass extinguishing of houses is not unheard of; consider that Balon Greyjoy himself lost five brothers (Harlon, Quenton, Donel, Urrigon and Robin) and two sons (Rodrik and Maron). His surviving brothers themselves have not had any issue to add to the family nor are in route to do so anytime soon (though them being who they are and considering the Iron Law, they must have had numerous salt wives and bastard kids by the truckload); Theon is most certainly castrated and Asha is not on the track of maternity, so one can say that the line is close to being extinguished if someone doesn't do something soon.
Jaqen H'ghar, Exact Words, and Loophole Abuse
- When Arya named Jaqen H'ghar as her final victim to blackmail him, why didn't Jaqen simply change his identity? He even uses the phrase "Jaqen is dead" when he switches to a new 'face' later on. It would have been an amusing loophole out of his own suicide.
- Because that wouldn't have satisfied the Red God. Jaqen promised three deaths.
- He did change his identity to avoid taking his own life. The whole point of the change of identity was that he had promised Arya he'd kill three people she named, and she couldn't just "un-name" him, even after he helped in killing all those other people. He probably only went on with the plan Arya gave him instead of doing the identity switcheroo imediately because he liked her way of out-of-the-box thinking, and that served as a "reward" of sorts.
- Doubtful, Arya says that he looked more scared of her naming him than he did while chained up in a burning building. The phrase "Jaqen is dead" is a reference to the way the Faceless Men change identities, which involves using the faces of dead people.
- The name isn't really the important detail here; in the TV series at least he only needs a nickname to kill someone. When she gives him his own name, it wouldn't matter if he changed it or not, he knows full well who she wants him to kill and his own honour can't allow him to try an weasel out of it. He might avoid the letter of the request, but he's breaking the spirit of it and that wouldn't fly with the Faceless Men.
Jon Snow's first name
- Why is Jon's name even Jon? Assuming he was named by Ned, then surely he was named after Jon Arryn. And while it is nice and all to name your son after your quasi-stepfather, isn't it also a bit demeaning by Westerosi standards? He is introduced to the world as Ned's bastard (truly or not), so he does not stand to inherit anything and can pass no titles to his children. In terms of patriarchal nobility he is at best non-existent and at worst a blemish. So, you'd think that this is the one child you should not name after someone you want to honor.
- Presumably he named the boy after Jon Arryn, but Jon is not an uncommon name in the North anyways. Ned loves his son, bastard or no, and probably wouldn't see a problem with it. In fact, just because he's a politically non-existant entity doesn't mean it isn't flattering for someone to name a human being after you. For all we know, Jon Arryn was delighted to hear it.
- And obviously, the R+L=J theory leaves open the possibility he's named for Jon Connington.
- Not really. GRR Martin stated in a Q&A that Jon was named by Ned, who has no reason to name him after Jon Connington. Lyanna wouldn't have much reason to either.
- Wouldn't it have been more "sensible" to name Jon after Robert and Robb after Jon Arryn? The trueborn son would be named after his father figure, Robert probably would appreciate the irony and Ned got to name his two sons after his close friends. But then again he simply might not have thought that far or feared it would come across as a slight to Robert.
- While Jon was conceived near the end of the war, Ned had no way of knowing if/when he'd be making it back to Winterfell and Cat alive, and thought he should honor the man who raised him like a father, and Jon was the second oldest after Robb, who was named after his best friend. That way if something happened to Ned, or if Cat was unable to have more children, he would have honored both his best friend and his foster father. And since Ned Stark doesn't seem the type to care about Jon Snow being bastard or trueborn, it's possible he was just thinking of who he should honor with his son's names, and Jon was just the next child born, bastard or no. From another standpoint, if R+L=J is correct, it provides a cover as people would be more likely to think Jon Snow as Ned Stark's bastard if he had the name of someone who Ned Stark respected. (Not that anyone in-story actually suspects that anyway) "Oh, Ned Stark's bastard? Aye, 'at's the boy he named after his old friend, the Hand of the King, Jon Arryn." By naming Jon after someone close to Ned, it brings Jon closer in line with his family and makes his story more believable. (although Ned was not likely thinking this way)
- How does the dove pie work? The pie was seemingly intact, how did they add the doves in after it was baked? What are the chances that doves would go number 2 inside the pie? Who in the world would want pie of birds that may have crapped in it?
- The pie is all crust. It's shaped into a bowl and baked. Then the doves are placed on the plate and covered by the crust, maybe some decorations are added to conceal the seam and to keep the crust in place. That's it. You wrongly assume that this is a pie people are supposed to eat. It isn't. It's just done for spectacle. Surely the inside of that crust is full of bird shit and maybe one or two dead doves, but it doesn't matter, because once it's cut open everything is just thrown away. There IS something called a "pidgeon pie" served at the wedding, but it's clearly stated to be a wholly different dish, one with cooked pidgeon meat.
Ned Stark's Intelligence Network
- If Ned Stark found out quick enough that Jorah Mormont was trying to get his hands dirty by engaging in the slave trade, and that Mance Rayder was amassing a great army to storm the wall, how come he never found out that Ramsay Snow had killed Domeric Bolton, the heir to the Dreadfort even by rumor? Isn't that newsworthy enough to warrant a reaction from Winterfell? It's true that the Boltons have no lost love for the Starks, but the Bastard of Bolton already had amassed a dire reputation even before Ned Stark had left Winterfell to become the Hand of the King, and it's noteworthy enough that the Bastard is known to engage in human hunting (an even worse practice than what Jorah Mormont was forced to exile himself for).
- Now, it's known that Lady Dustin (Domeric's aunt and Lord Bolton's sister-in-law) hated Ned Stark; but isn't the death of her "beloved" nephew and the resulting death of her sister Bethany (Domeric's mother and Lord Bolton's wife) after two years of grief warranted enough scorn to denounce the Bastard to the Starks of Winterfell?
- First of all, don't overestimate Ned's capacity for information gathering. He apparently completely lacked spies or informants. It might have been bad luck on Jorah's part that his slave trading was even discovered. Maybe he was secretly denounced by a family member or another noble house, and there was some written document that clearly proved his wrongdoings, so Ned could easily charge him without much investigation. That he knows about Mance Rayder is because the Watch knows knows about him, and obviously they would relay such information to the Lord of Winterfell. With Domeric's death things are a lot more muddy and complex. He died of an illness after visiting Ramsey, and even though Roose (and the reader) is convinced that it was his doing, there is hardly any way to prove it (beyond just torturing a confession out of Ramsey, and Ned wouldn't do that). Furthermore, Ned might feel much less compelled to act even if he did believe in Ramsey's guilt. Roose didn't act at all, and it was his only son and heir. Is Ned really going to pry into a death which might not be a homicide at all, can't be proven a murder even if it was, and all that against the wishes of one of his most important bannerman, who is also the victim's father? As for that Ramsey was hunting humans - those are rumors as well. Ned probably hears rumors about one or the other noble in the north all the time, especially those of houses with a history of cruelties, he can't just cause a diplomatic incident based on gossip. Keep in mind that back then Ramsey was probably a bit more careful going about his "hobby".
- Ned was only coming to Bear Island because there were rumours of slaving, a serious enough crime in Westeros to warrant a high lord's investigation. Slaving is hard to keep secret, especially on an island with few people. He may not have known that Jorah was involved, but Jorah automatically assumed that he did (as the guilty often do) and made a break for it with his wife. Considering he was the lord of Bear Island, it wouldn't have been easy for him to get away if everyone knew he was suspected of a serious crime, particularly when surrounded by an honourable family like the Mormonts.
- That's a question that not many people have done, but what happened to Tyrek Lannister? He was a boy of 13 son of Tygett Lannister, the one who his nicknamed "wet nurse" because he's married with a baby. He disappeared after the riot at King's Landing in A Clas Of Kings and his body was never found. Well, in A Feast for Crows Jaime suggested that Varys kidnapped him and that's a very likely solution. But why he did so? Varys is plotting to put Young Griff on the throne, right? Then I remembered he's the one who always cared for Gendry's wellfare. Gendry may be an Unexpected Successor of House Baratheon. And what if he kidnapped Tyrek for hiding an Unexpected Successor for House Lannister. See it: If Varys and Illyrio win the game, Cersei is going to die, Tywin is already dead, Jaime is a King's Guard and could die as well, they have Kevan killed, I'm sure they expected to have Tyrion killed with Cersei and Jaime, Lancel joined the Faith and the other son of Kevan is dead as well. There will be only Martyn Lannister, who could die as well, and...Tyrek Lannister. Are there others options?
- Tywin Lannister would rise from the grave himself if any of the sons of Genna gets to be the successor, considering they're all Freys; they would certainly not have a better claim than Tyrek, so there's that. Now seriously, it's certainly interesting that Varys would worry about the fate of House Lannister when basically everything that he is fighting for is to undermine them and their reign, even saying so to Kevan before crossbowing him to the gut. The mere use of the crossbow is meant to recall what Tyrion did to Tywin himself, so that Tyrion gets the blame for Kevan as well. These actions from Varys do not suggest any direction that would benefit the Lannisters at all.
- Varys is only worring about Targaryens 's fate, for obsure reasons. I think he's preserving Robert's bastard and young Tyrek only for a reason that would benefit Aegon, though currently we don't know how.
- Possibly he intends to put Tyrek or a Tyrek impostor in charge of House Lannister to make them loyal to Aegon and kidnapped/killed Tyrek and hid the body for that end. If Stannis and Shireen died, then Gendry would have one of the best claims to House Baratheon and could possibly be used as a vassal for Aegon and Tyrek could be used as a similar puppet for House Lannister.
- We don't actually know that Varys had him kidnapped. It's entirely possible that he really did die in the riot. And if Varys did, he might have done it to have a useful tool in the event that the main Lannisters die out, or he might have done it for the reason Jaime suspects. Tyrek was a squire to Robert and might have useful knowledge of something, for example being able to give evidence as to exactly how Robert died if Varys ever wants to put the last nail into the Lannister dynasty coffin.
- Now, following the line of questions that not many people have asked, I ask this: During the failed plot that was concocted by Arianne Martell to crown Myrcella Baratheon, why did Gerold Dayne (Darkstar) try to kill the Baratheon Princess and on who's behalf?
- His own. Darkstar wants war between Dorne and the Iron Throne. When Hotah stopped the silly attempt to crown Myrcella, Darkstar went for plan B and tried to kill her.
Lady Stoneheart's plan
- Why is Lady Stoneheart fighting with the Brotherhood and why didn't she try to find Arya? Gendry was with them and knew Arya's true identity, and all of the Brotherhood probably knew that the Hound had carried her off. I understand that they resurrected her, but why is she not upset at them for losing her daughter?
- It's good to point out that Lady Stoneheart is not at her right senses when she takes over the Brotherhood. Consider that Beric Dondarrion argued that he lost great bits of himself every time he died; granted, he did not stay dead for a long time every time thanks to Thoros' presence. Catelyn stayed an awful lot more time dead than Beric so it's safe to assume that she lost greater parts of herself compared to Dondarrion. Considering how much of a threat is Stoneheart, being faithful men that know that R'hllor brought her back to life for some damn good reason (good enough to kill Dondarrion for good), I gather that they are following her out of fear or out of mere faith to the Lord of Light. Seeing that they are apparently following her diligently, they either didn't tell her to protect themselves or to protect Arya from her. Then again, if they did tell her, she might be bound exclusively for revenge and this matters to her more than the subject of Arya (specially since they have no damn idea of where the hell the girl is anyway).
- Also, if they did tell her, she might be manipulating them out of the guilt they carry for losing Arya.
- They probably emphasized that they had been going to bring Arya to her and the Hound stole her. Why do you say she didn't try to find her? Right before they hang Merrett Frey, they ask him if he's seen the Hound and Arya or knows where they'd have gone.
- Also they're collecting kids at the orphanage run by Gendry. That's certainly an attempt to find Arya.
- Uhm... I've recently reread the series, and, unless I'm mistaken, Jaqen H'ghar was introduced along with Biter and Rorge, being taken by Yoren from the cells in the Red Keep, so... How did H'ghar, a Faceless Man, manage to get captured? Early Installment Weirdness?
- Some fans have speculated that Syrio=Jaqen. Even if that isn't true it's probably safe to say that he was captured for trying kill someone.
- It's safe to consider that if Syrio=Jaqen like it's speculated, he may have tailed Arya to make sure that she finished her training properly by guiding her to Braavos or at the very least turn her away from the dangers of Westeros.
- What you consider being captured, the Faceless Men call "hitching a ride".
- Either (a) he took on the identity of a criminal for a reason, or (b) he's not infallible.
- Jaqen specializes in covert assassinations, not the kind of badassery that would let him take out whole troops of people at once. Neither is he an escape-artist ninja with smoke bombs. If the gold cloaks came at him in force, he was probably hosed.
- It is the smartest thing a man can do. If a man is being looked for, where will he NOT be looked for? A convoy of prisoners. A man can change his face to hide his identity and infiltrate a black cell, and when a man is delivered to the Wall, a man can easily make his escape.
Who is Coldhands?
- There has been long talk about the identity of Coldhands, and it's greatly speculated that he might be an undead Benjen Stark. This is a very good theory, except from the fact that the Children of the Forest refer to his state as being dead a long time ago. Considering that they can live for hundreds of years, the two years that Benjen has been missing/dead would not be a long time for a Child of the Forest. As such, who is a suitable candidate for the identity of Coldhands? My money is on someone from between the days of Aegon the Conqueror (age 1) and the Dunk and Egg stories (80-something years before ASOIAF).
- Some think he's The Night's King.
- Leaf could have been using terms her audience would get, rather than her own radically different sense of time.
Why did Benjen take the black?
- Why did Benjen Stark take the Black? Considering that the rest of the Great Houses are suitably represented with numerous members, the fact that his father, elder brother and sister were killed in the fight against the Targaryens and the focus of House Stark during the Dunk and Egg stories (some 80 years before AGOT) is to rebuild the male line of the house (and presumably has remained very sparse ever since), why wasn't a priority for Benjen to have a family? Eddard participated in two great wars that could have put his issue at a tremendous risk, but Benjen was never considered even as a contingency? It's not like Benjen didn't like booty, seeing that he warned Jon against taking the Black if he knew just what he would be giving up!
- Without bothering to look the dates properly, I always assumed Benjen had joined the Nights Watch before his father and brother died. I don't remember him having a role in Robert's Rebellion and being in the NW would explain that as well.
- Benjen attended the tourney at Harrenhall and it's speculated that he and his brothers and sister were behind the enigmatic Knight of the Laughing Tree, who participated in the tourney. He was the standing Stark who remained at Winterfell during the War of the Usurper and joined the Night's Watch immediately after the war.
- Tradition. The Stark House has always been the support of the Night's Watch, and they still believe in its mission to protect the North, enough to keep sending some of their family there to keep it going.
- It seems to be the Westeros equivalent of taking Holy Orders, which was a common way of disposing of surplus sons in Medieval times (he did, initially at least, have two older brothers).
- In addition to having them actually take Holy Orders as septons, or become maesters.
- The Starks, however, believe in Old Gods which have no priesthood, so they don't have the holy orders option. And the Maesters' Citadel is too far away from the North. So the Watch is the most convenient and logical choice.
- This has always bugged this troper's mind, so there's a possible interpretation. GRRM refused to tell the exact reason, but stated that Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the rebellion (since he was 13-14 at the time, he wouldn't have been much of an help to Ned anyway) took the black few months after Ned's return in Winterfell. At this point, Robb and Jon were already born. It has always bugged this troper's mind that R+L=J had much to do about Benjen's taking the black. Benjen was Lyanna's cloesest brother, and would know been aware of her acrions. If Lyanna was the Knight Of Laughing Tree, he would have known and even helping her since earlier offerend Howland an armor. Not only this, but he would have known that Lyanna wasn't thrilled about marrying Robert Baratheon and having feelings for Rhaegar instead, and could have had an hand in Lyanna's sudden disappereance with Rhaegar, thus leading to the eventual ribellion. Lyanna died, and Ned came back in Winterfell with a boy... If R+L=J is true, there's no way Benjen din't know: Ned would have told him or he was pretty much able of figuring out who Jon was. Since he covered up his sister's affair with the Prince, resulting a war that killed his father, brother and sister, he would could have joined the Watch as a form of atonement and as well protecting Jon's secret legacy like Maester Aemon joined the Watch to protect his brother's claim, since the Watch trust to have no family or kings.
Iron Islands' Economy
- How does the Iron Islands economy work? It is shameful for men to pay for anything. How do they buy food? How do they have ships built? How do they get their arms and armor? Raiding had ceased for three centuries by the events of the books. You might say "Thralls" but A: It had been 300 years since they stopped raiding places, B: Thralls need food and accommodation as well, which needs to be bought and C: this still does not negate the fact that they would still need to trade for resources. The only way I could see this whole gold price/iron price thing working the case is that that the Iron Price thing is really something for the nobles and even then, it is usually taken as no more than a suggestion.
- In the first place, I get the impression that, as you said, it's an elite thing. In their heyday, I suspect the "ironborn" were more of a noble caste than an entire society. Food and mining were the exclusive province of slaves and thralls, with perhaps a certain degree of tribute from mainland communities. Also, it's probably a lot more acceptable to pay with gold if you got the gold by looting in the first place.
- Also, it's kind of a symbolic thing. It's less that it's shameful for men to pay for anything then that it's shameful for men to pay for everything.
- You could always assume that women run the entire economy.
- How do they get their arms and armour? It's the IRON Islands, they have plenty of iron mines.
- That does not mean they don't need miners to work the mine, smiths to work the metal, masons and bricklayers to build the smith's forges and coal to fire them. All of which requires, one way or another, money to process a lump of ore into a sword or helmet.
- Back in the olden days, the answer would likely be "thralls who use money that was taken raiding." As time marched on, the Iron Price moved to only cover more expensive things. Balon doesn't bitch Theon out over his pants, just his golden, ornamented cloak clasp.
- As the site Race for the Iron Throne puts it, Balon Greyjoy is a revanchist who romanticizes the past. He's deliberately talking about a culture that probably hasn't existed for a long time, and even when it did it wasn't really the way it's described.
- Agree with the entry above this one. The World of Ice & Fire reveals that the main industry of the Iron islands is fishing, and fishing is considered to be one of the only 2 respectable professions for free Ironborn(along with reaving). Also at several points in their history Ironborn lords actively promoted international trade. Even in the main series the ship that carries Theon to Pyke is a trading vessel. So yeah, this whole "paying the iron price" is nothing more than a pipe dream.
- It's possible that the Ironborns' economic model isn't based on currency trading but on community ownership and barter (Among themselves, at least; It's very much stated that one Ironborn cannot shed the blood of another, meaning that they don't pillage and reave their own islands). This would explain why fishing is considered to be a noble trade (They'd be the one bringing the most food to the community afterall...). Other menial tasks are performed by thralls (Take note that while slavery and raiding are technically illegal, it doesn't stop them from doing it, as Euron shows...)
Littlefinger vs. Lannisters
- What did Littlefinger have against the Lannisters? It seems to me that he aimed to hurt them just as much as he did with the Starks and Tullys, even considering that they were just mere accessories to his plans to exploit. Was it because of his witnessing of their treatment of Sansa?
- Littlefinger hurts everyone. And let's be honest here; Cersei shot herself in the foot without any input from Littlefinger.
- Littlefinger even tells Sansa he had been banking on a little more time to get his pieces in place before Cersei shot everything to hell in King's Landing.
- Because he profited from it.
- Exactly. One shouldn't make the mistake of assuming Littlefinger needs to hold a grudge against someone in order to conspire in destroying them. The Lannisters offer him one of the best motivations of all; they're the ruling power, which means they're in his way. The weaker and more divided they are, the more likely it is Littlefinger's later plans to advance his own power will succeed.
Robert vs. the Greyjoys and Martells
- Why didn't King Robert have a more vigilant approach to the Iron Islands or Dorne? It looks like he just left Balon to his schemes after his rebellion (he even reached the point where he just didn't care about Theon anymore) and he left the Martells largely alone in spite of them being noted Targaryen loyalists.
- It's easy to forget that the Seven Kingdoms are roughly the size of South America. Simple geographic considerations make securing them completely, utterly impractical. The Targaryen conquest was only possible with their dragons, and their rule only continued after the last dragon died because of simple political inertia, aided by the fact that the overlords of the Seven Kingdoms remained kings of their realms de facto if not de jure. (Alexander used a similar system of governance, as did the Persian Empire.) Robert's Rebellion was simply the Targaryen rulers overstepping their somewhat tenuous authority and calling down the might of four kings down on their dragon-less heads.
- Robert and the rest of the Seven Kingdoms don't really understand the ironborn philosophy. To him, there is no sense to Balon continuing his rebellion; it made sense to him initially, since he was a rebel himself, but afterwards... what would have been the point? The might of the throne can easily crush any possible ironborn rebellion if not distracted by other matters.
- Rooting out the Martells would have been impossible. Dorne could not have taken on the might of five Great Houses, but contrariwise, the Baratheon alliance had no chance of just destroying them with fire and sword on their own ground. There's a reason Dorne is the only one of the Seven Kingdoms which had to be brought under the hegemony via marriage. The Baratheon court weren't stupid about it; there's a reason Robert never travelled to Dorne to engage in his skillful diplomatic method of drinking with his enemy until they were too hungover to object to the peace. But Jon Arryn's collaboration with Doran Martell convinced the court that a rather tenuous peace had been established, and Doran and Oberyn's combined efforts kept them believing it.
- (1) From Robert's (or Jon Arryn's) perspective, pretty much everyone will be disloyal given motive and opportunity. For example, if Robert had Balon or Doron killed, any replacement strong enough to lead the Ironborn or the Dornish would be just as bad, and would have an additional grievance as well. (2) As Robert knows well, excessive cruelty will give all the other houses motive to rise against you. Or, as Tywin explained: "When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you."
- Presumably Robert was well aware that Dorne was likely to join any viable-looking attempt at a Targaryen restoration, which was part of why he expended so much effort hunting down Viserys and Daenerys. He knew the Dornish were not fond of him, but so long as the Targaryens were not in any position to reclaim the throne the Dornish wouldn't do much more than grumble.
- In Storm of Swords, Dany gives surrender terms to Yunkai: release your slaves, all of them. Give them a big armful of food, gold, etc. for their years of service. Allow Dany's Unsullied into the city to search and make sure these terms are met. Do this, and she'll leave Yunkai alone. She's rejected, but afterwards wins a decisive battle that would leave her no reason to compromise on her demands, and we see the slaves leaving Yunkai. Fast forward to Dance with Dragons...and the Yunkai we see go to war with Dany has lots and lots of slaves, enough so that every petty Yunkish lord has specialty slaves of all descriptions, such as enormously tall slave warriors on stilts and other such absurdities. I can understand that Yunkai would go back to slaving the moment Dany left, but one gets the impression from descriptions and dialogue that these aren't fresh catches, but rather slaves the Yunkish have had for years. And Yunkai seems to have them in abundance. Where the hell did they come from? Why isn't Yunkai hurting from having the entire foundation of their economy liberated and marched off?
- Two reasons: first, that once Dany and her army had gone there was absolutely nothing to stop them from taking their old slaves back. Second: life is very difficult for someone who has never had to support themselves, particularly in an economy that's gone to crap. It's mentioned that basically as soon as Dany left millions of people sold themselves back into slavery because once the bag of money was gone they realised they had no experience, skills, or prospects. As for the repercussions for Yunkai's occuption: they're having plenty. Their economy is trash. They get a new king every week. The citizens are starving and anarchic. They're terrified of Dany returning, so they're conscripting their people and marching on her as fast as they can. The only people we see with slaves are the materially wealthy.
Robert and Tyrion
- What were Robert's relations with Tyrion like? I've only seen the show but don't mind spoilers from the books.
- They didn't have much interaction, as it's implied Tyrion spent most of his days in Casterly Rock before the events of the books. However, Tyrion does say that he liked Robert, because Cersei hated him. Considering, however, Robert's lack of respect for anyone who isn't capable of smashing a hammer, he probably disdained Tyrion like most people do. Certainly he wasn't on Tyrion's list of "people that are kind to me." (Jaime, Jaime, Aemon, and Jaime.)
- Tyrion reflects on Robert when Mormont asks him to get more men for the Watch, and notes that Robert would just ignore him. This suggests they weren't very close, Robert didn't have a high opinion of him, or both.
- Tyrion tends to take slights and insults very personally and takes note of people who treat him badly, and also those who treat him kindly. Whenever his narration talks about someone he pretty much always mentions the way they react towards him. If Robert was either abusive or kind to him he would definitely have mentioned it. As it stands, Robert didn't appear to have any strong feelings on him.
Myrcella, Trystane, and Quentyn
- This a very minor point, but why does Tyrion's scheme to have Myrcella betrothed to Trystane Matrell when Doran Martell has an older son, Quentyn, who (as far as Tyrion knows) is as yet unbethrothed? True, Trystane and Quentyn are better matched in terms of age but that seems to matter little in Westeros, and isn't one step higher in the succession so much better?
- Remember that Tyrion loves his little niece dearly, and it's entirely within his character to try and partner Myrcella with a boy her own age. It's also safer for Myrcella if she and her betrothed sexually mature together and become friends, rather than hand her off to someone who's almost a man and might treat her badly. Alternatively, he might have thought that because Quentyn is being groomed to become the ruler of Dorne, Doran would want him married to someone within Dorne.
- Furthermore, by making the betrothed with Trystane, Myrcella would not be particularly close to a position of power (seeing that Trystane is behind Arianne and Quentyn in the Dornish succession), thus putting her away from harm's way.
The Kingsguard and Robert's trip to Winterfell
- Another minor point: why is it that only three of the Kingsguard (Jaime, Meryn Trant and Boros Blount) accompany the entire royal family to Winterfell? Certainly some of them, Selmy included, have duties that would keep them in King's Landing, but why aren't at least the majority of them along for the trip? Perhaps a feature of Robert's bravado?
- Sometimes kings will have members of their family protected by the Kingsguard, and we saw Selmy with Renly, so presumanbly Robert followed that tradition and had the other guards protecting other members.
- It's also possible that at least one guard was dispatched to protect people like Shireen for example, although at that point Stannis probably already left KL.
- Selmy's internal monologue in aDoD indicates that the Kingsguard's role has varied over the years. Some kings exclusively used them to protect their own person, some had them guard the entire royal family, and some used them as elite warriors and dependable commanders who would be dispatched throughout the kingdoms. In short, they're not just bodyguards, bodyguarding is just what they usually do.
Lord Caron and the Rainbow Guard
- Why is Lord Caron apart of Renly's Kingsguard? Aren't members of the Kingsguard supposed to renounce titles? Did he and everyone just refers to him as Lord out of habit? Or does Renly's Kingsguard have different rules?
- Probably the latter. Renly doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to follow tradition in anything, and it would be smart to keep one of his biggest supporters fairly close to him at all times.
Joffrey and Margaery
- Why exactly are the Lannisters so willing to marry Joffrey to Margaery? Not only is she a widow (meaning as far as they know, she's not a virgin) but she was married to Renly Baratheon, widely considered a traitor to the Realm. Neither of these things exactly make her sound like Queen material. I get that they were trying to secure the Tyrell's allegiance, but surely there were other, more suitable candidates for Joffrey to wed.
- The Lannisters weren't exactly in the best negotiating position at the time. Left to fight without allies, Stannis and his newly reinforced army would likely have steamrolled them and they knew it. So they offered the Tyrells exactly what they were seeking in the first place; the marriage of Mace Tyrell's only daughter to the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. Had they come to the Tyrells with a marriage proposal but a snotty attitude about Margaery being too soiled for Joffrey, it would have only ostracized them and driven them into the alliance with one of the Lannisters' enemies, resulting in the loss of everything. Moreover, while Renly may have been a 'traitor', he was a much beloved one and in any case no more a 'traitor' than the Tyrells themselves. In short, prior to the Battle of the Blackwater, the Lannisters were playing a rather weak hand as well they could.
- The lesser reason would be to cut up Joffrey's betrothed to Sansa, as her status as a political prisoner was lessened by the presence of the Tyrells and later by the Stark's loss of the War of the Five Kings. As such, to the Lannister cause Sansa was a temporary convenience but Margaery and her family were an asset. As they reasoned, Sansa would not be less a prisoner even if the betrothed were broken.
- Plus, the Lannisters are too prideful to marry off one of their own, particularly the king, to any less than one of the great houses. Remember how Tywin went off on his father for marrying his sister Genna to a Frey. Joffrey can't marry a Stark, Robb is still at war with them. Same for Tully. He's already Baratheon (officially) so that house is out. Arryn has no suitable match. That basically leaves either the Martells or the Tyrells, and siding with the Martells would've been a great way to ensure the Tyrells ally up with the Starks posthaste.
Sand Snake Ages
- After reading the first Hotah chapter of AFFC, the numbers presented don't seem to add up. Doran Martell is said to be "two-and-fifty" and "had ten years between" his brother Oberyn, who's oldest daughter is almost thirty. Doesn't that indicate that Oberyn sired her at age twelve? I know Dornish are supposed to be promiscuous but that seems... excessive.
- Any more excessive than Dany getting pregnant at around the same age? Or to put it another way, if the Hound can take a life at age twelve, I don't see any reason why the Red Viper couldn't help create one.
- Also, 'almost thirty' is not the same as 'thirty'.
- If the daughter is 27, he would have sired her at age 15. If "ten years between" is loose, and Oberyn is only 9 or 8 years younger, he'd have been been 16 or 17. None of these ages are outrageous for Westeros.
- What happens to the wife of a man sentenced to the Wall? Could she marry again, given that her husband is as good as dead for her, as a member of the Night's Watch?
- It hasn't come up, so there's no canon answer to this yet, but I would think so, probably.
- The Night's Watch creed explicitly forswears marriage, so it would seem like an annulment in that case.
- Depends on the Exact Words of the wedding vow, probably, but a woman whose husband is sentenced to life in prison can't typically get an annulment on that basis, so I'm thinking not. For better or worse, yo.
- What was the reason for Tywin's apparently extreme decay? Dead bodies abound in this Crapsack World, but they don't seem to rot so badly as to drive anyone within 50 feet into fits of projectile vomiting. Sepsis from his manner of death, maybe?
- He's not just dead, he's literally dripping with shit from the giant hole in his bowels. The smell would be indescribable.
- WMG says that he might have been poisoned by Oberyn Martell or Elaria Sand under the assumption made by the fact that Tywin was found in the privy by Tyrion under a rather improbable spell of dysentery, maybe. There is no indication that Tywin had any stomach problems at the moment of his death or that his being at the privy was the result of poisoning, but the amount of decay of his carcass and its rapid deterioration suggests that there might have been foul play aside from the crossbow bolts that Tyrion put on him. Admittedly, there is no foundation to this theory, since it's rather pointless that GRRM would include an insignificant detail that would prove quite inconsequential to an already dishonorable death like Tywin's was.
Westerosi Royal Titles
- Why is the rules of the Seven Kingdoms called a king when he's clearly an emperor?
- Possibly because the Lords Paramount of the Seven Kingdoms and the Riverlands, such as Hoster Tully and Eddard Stark, are not monarchs (having given up that title when Aegon conquered Westeros). Also, the ruler of Westeros does not directly rule over the Seven Kingdoms, instead simply having seniority over the lords who do. If they were styled as Kings and Queens, he then might be known as an Emperor to indicate his higher rank: since they are not, he is known as a King instead.
- Doylist reason: because to the reader, "king" evokes medieval Europe, and "emperor" evokes Rome (or maybe Star Wars). Watsonian reason: titles seem rather fluid in Westeros, as evidenced by the fact that there is no formal distinction in titles between a petty lord and a lord of one of the Great Houses. Renly also offers to let Robb continue to style himself King in the North as long as he acknowledges Renly as his liege lord. Alternately, when Aegon conquered Westeros he wanted to knock the kings he conquered down a peg and demoted them in title (and took their titles to himself) to remind them that they're his bitches now.
- The aforementioned Doylist reason is, I think, the most accurate. Essos has imperial titles. The Yi Tish have an emperor. The Ghiscari had one before the Valyrian conquest. One particularly Leroy Jenkinsean Valyrian dragonlord tried to create a Valyrian Empire during the Doom. For Essos this is okay because they are an Asian-Mediterranean mashup anyway. But Westeros is Western European, and not just any old Western European but with a distinct Old English flavor (as opposed to German/Holy Roman, where an imperial title wouldn't look out of place).
- I think the definition of a King would basically be someone who doesn't have a liege Lord. The ruler of Dorne could have kept the title as Prince is a more ambiguous term. As for Renly saying he will allow Robb to keep the title King in the North, Renly isn't a particularly thoughtful person and just wants to do what he can to usurp rule of the Seven Kingdoms. Also, Aegon had done what the other rulers of the Seven Kingdoms had done. If you look at the history of Westeros, such as in the days of the Hundred Kingdoms, you'll see that many Kings were forced to submit to other Kings and became Lords, eventually forming the Seven Kingdoms. Aegon then conquered six of them and did the same thing, making the Kings into Lords Paramount or setting up new L Ps.
Varys and Tyrion's Escape
- In AFFC, what did Varys want to prove when he faked being forced by Jaime to free Tyrion? In not so many words, Varys basically says to Tyrion "...oh, and there's the way to the tower of the hand... who knows what an uninvited onlooker might find there, hmmm???" and then Tyrion finds a conveniently reachable crossbow to finally shoot Tywin just as if someone had put it there for him. What possible benefit was there for Varys to deceive Jaime if Varys' plan was to rescue Tyrion and ultimately disappear? Was it because he was going to do it anyway but didn't want to leave witnesses?
- Possibly. By pretending to be forced by Jaime, it would make Jaime think that Varys wouldn't have done it otherwise. It would make it look as though Varys was loyal to Tywin and as though the entire responsibility for what happened was Jaime's. If Jaime hadn't asked and Varys helped Tyrion anyway, he could have been a logical suspect due to his knowledge of the secret passages in the Red Keep but he could have pretended to be committed to investigating the murder. If Jaime asked and Varys agreed immediately, it would seem more than just a little suspicious and would give Varys no way of defending himself if Jaime accused him.
- Wasn't Littlefinger's lie about the dagger incredibly risky? If anyone had ever shown the dagger to Robert, Littlefinger would have been totally exposed, but he lied to Catelyn and Ser Roderick, then put Ned in contact with Catelyn. Ned was walking around King's Landing with the dagger - if Ned had arrested Tyrion himself, the lie would have come out, or if Robert had ever said "hey, Ned, what's your wife's evidence for kidnapping my brother in law," the lie would have been exposed, and in both cases, the chief witness against Littlefinger would have been the actual King himself. Maybe Littlefinger was valuable enough to survive that, but it pretty much would have blown his cover at the least, and gotten his head put on a pike at the worst.
- It was a calculated gamble and risk, the only way you can win is if you take a risk and Littlefinger knows that. The thing is the matter they are investigating is very delicate and any real accusation without evidence will lead to all-out war, so everyone Littlefinger tells that story of the dagger to is bound by secrecy anyway. It is actually a smart improvisation since Littlefinger is able to use that lame-ass attempted assassination(which we find out is by Joffrey, who else) to directly set the stage for the Stark-Lannister war he wanted. The only person who could potentially compromise Littlefinger is Tyrion Lannister who knows from where Catelyn made that accusation but again Tyrion is despised and ignored by his own family and far from King's Landing, by the time Tyrion arrives, Littlefinger is rewarded for betraying Ned Stark and above suspicion. And of course, Baelish got lucky when Catelyn met Tyrion at the Inn of the Crossroads. In A Clash of Kings, Tyrion decides that he'll move against Baelish later and decides to send him to treat with the Tyrells and get him out of the city. But Tyrion got Out-Gambitted when the Blackwater Battle left him injured, deposed from office and discredited instead of honored while Littlefinger became Lord of Harrenhal and then he leaves King's Landing while making sure that Tyrion gets his job as Master of Coin all the while setting him up to be framed for regicide. Basically, Littlefinger is a gambler and an expert puppet master who manages to get all ends covered while improvising and taking big risks when needed.
- Imho, the big risk is ROBERT, who could easily recognize the dagger and blow the scheme up. On the other hand, Baelish is a gambler, so maybe that's how he works.
- Well, there was a reference in the books (when Tywin had Jaime and Joffrey's swords made) when Tywin tells Tyrion that Robert never once seriously looked at the weapons from within the armory, as the only hunting knife he ever used was the one Jon Arryn gave him as a boy. Robert being able to recognize a dagger he saw years ago and had never looked at since is kind of a stretch, he probably wouldn't even know if it was missing. Even if he did, Littlefinger could say he just bought it off of someone who might have stolen it from the vaults, there was nothing to tie the dagger to Littlefinger.
- Yes it was. It is, in fact, supposed to be one of the biggest hints that Littlefinger is not the master planner as which he presents himself to Sansa, but a gambler with a talent for improvisation. The biggest hint is, of course, the fact that Littlefinger sincerely wanted Ned as regent, to be a power behind the throne of an easily manipulable and financially inept ruler, but heavily misjudged Ned's character and was forced to choose Lannisters' side (whose chances in the civil war were slim, and who only won thanks to a case of literal black magic that set up the chain of events leading to the alliance with Tyrells) because Stannis was his stalwart foe and so was unacceptable to him as King.
- If Robert found out, Littlefinger probably would have just said something like, "Yeah, I lied. A dagger I knew to be yours was used in an assassination attempt, so I figured the culprit was either you or else a member of the royal family. Being loyal to the crown, I pointed the Starks' investigation elsewhere."
- ...But he did point to a royal family member (not the DIRECT royal family, but a brother of the queen is still applicable) so if he wanted Robert to buy that he would have had to point to a non-Lannister.
Jon is surrounded by idiots
- Just finished ADWD. Why is Jon seemingly the only one concerned with the potential ARMY OF ZOMBIES (the wildlings massing beyond the Wall by the coast), when wights have been proven to be able to enter Castle Black? Having him Surrounded by Idiots is a bit of a stretch now that everyone knows the wights are real and can enter the garrison. You'd think that the Watch would be welcoming any warm bodies to help man (or woman) the walls and doing all that they could to get the wildlings out of the reach of the Others. Or at the very least, not protesting so viciously about the wildlings being let through. Better smelly wildlings beside you than an army of the undead facing you. Is it just for the narrative to have Jon surrounded by unhelpful bigots and jerks, who ultimately decide stabbing him is a better plan than obeying his commands?
- It's a combination of reasons.
- Marsh's cabal hates the wildlings and think Jon is wrong to ally with them. Doubly so after the Shieldhall speech, when Jon announces that the already risky mission is going to be commanded by Tormund rather than Jon himself, meaning men of the Watch will be expected to serve under a wildling.
- Then there's the logistical concerns. They've got to bring enough food for the ranging to Hardhome, and enough to feed the survivors there as well. The ranging will go right through the Haunted Forest and they'll be going even slower on the way back. It isn't hard to imagine why the conspirators would object to the notion of sending more men north either: If the ranging fails (a very real possibility) then they've done nothing but expend resources and give even more corpses to the Others.
- Finally, Jon plans to go south and challenge Ramsay Bolton. At this point he believes that Stannis is dead, so even if he abandons his post and goes alone, he could still be inviting retaliation from Winterfell and he has no reason to believe that any more help is coming.
- In addition to the excellent points made above, it's not that they're not concerned; in fact a lot of the men on the Wall have had more experience with the Others than Jon has, and they're terrified out of their wits. It's that Jon is making decisions that, to them, make absolutely no sense and seem to be betraying their oaths and traditions. Why, in the depths of their crisis, are they being forced to feed and home thousands of wildings when it's not even assured that they've got enough to feed themselves? Why are men who have bragged about killing crows all their lives suddenly running Night Watch forts? Why is Jon marching on Winterfell, when there's a friggin zombie invasion going on and the oaths they all took explicitly forbid him from doing so? If you look at it from outside Jon's perspective, it's easy to see why they might have serious doubts about his leadership skills and loyalties, and Jon's own demeanor and habit of telling no-one anything more than what he thought they needed to know did nothing to help with that. So it's not that Martin simply wants a narrative showing how awesome Jon is to keep leading in such adversity, it's a deconstruction of the traditional Byronic Hero where such traits actually work against him.
- There's also one other factor to consider: wildlings aren't trained to fight in large, organized groups. When the invasion is upon them, it's fair to assume that most of the people Jon took in will be running helter-skelter and many will die. Guess what will happen when there's a surplus of dead bodies laying around, with no time to stop and burn them all.
Cultural Differences in Wildling Royalty
- Why is it so difficult for the southron lords to understand that the wildlings have a totally different culture from theirs, that "king" is a title to be won in battle and not handed down to generations or family members, and marriage practices are vastly different from their own? I'd understand if they were speculating way down south about this, but they're at the Wall, interacting with wildlings face to face, and talking with men from the Watch like Jon who've had dealings with the wildlings. Yet they continue to call Val a "princess" and pigheadedly ignore all evidence and protests to the contrary.
- For the same reason people have difficulty understanding and filtering other cultures outside of their own room of reference. It is easier for Jon Snow, the Stark Bastard and member of a Night's Watch (itself an organization that allows for egalitarian mixing of different classes and relatively meritocratic) to understand the Wildlings than for King Stannis Baratheon and his royal retinue fighting for a throne that is his by right.
- Also, the unfamiliarity of the southerners has to do with the fact that the Night's Watch apparently only purpose in later years was to keep the Wildlings away. Having been demonized in their popular culture, the southerners consider the Wildlings as lesser, barbaric peoples; as such, they're assuming that the free folk that crossed the wall at that moment want to adopt the regal system that the supposedly superior southerners have developed for themselves, fleeing from their "savage ways", so to speak.
- To build on the previous poster's point, the southroners don't want to understand the wildings' culture. For one, it's better for them if Val's a princess and Mance's son is a king, because then they can use those positions to make political matches and engage in blood sacrifice. The wildling practice of choosing people who can defend them to be king just isn't convenient for southron politics, and thus is ignored. Secondly, the southroners just think that the wildling way is wrong, their way is right, and obviously, in a clash between the two cultures, the "more civilized" one should win. It is incomprehensible for them to defer to what they see as savage practices.
- Why was Olenna Tyrell betrothed to a Targaryen? She's a Redwyne by birth, so it seems she wouldn't be nearly important enough to be considered. The only explanation I can think of was that she was extremely beautiful in her youth, which is fairly plausible, but still.
- Redwyne, though not a major noble House, is actually quite powerful. They own the largest fleet in the Reach, for one thing, and viticulture is a very profitable business, particularly in medieval times. But at the end of the day, well, not every Targaryen can end up marrying a princess or an heiress (or their sister), and there would certainly be worse choices than a rich, strong house sworn to one of your greatest allies.
- The World of Ice & Fire reveals that Olenna was betrothed to Daeron, Aegon V's youngest son. Aegon V desperately needed to ally with powerful houses in order to counterbalance all the lords who were rebelling against the Iron Throne(because Aegon's pro-commoner measures were hurting their interests). As one of the strongest and richest houses in the Reach, the Redwynes were a valuable ally.
Margaery's Moon Tea
- So why was Margaery getting moon tea from Pycelle? At this point wheather she has a lover and the state of her maidenhood is completely unknown. Therefore are we to assume that Pycelle lied to Cersei or does Margaery in fact have a lover?
- The most logical explanation is that Pycelle simply told Cersei what she wanted to hear, and what he thought would help the Lannisters. Moon tea doesn't seem hard to get; it would make very little sense for Margaery to go to one of the Lannisters' most blatant allies and ask him for something she knows full well can bring her game crashing down around her ears. If she needed moon tea, she'd send one of her maids to get some, which wouldn't raise any suspicion (the maid could just say she needed it for herself).
- The ingredients of Moon Tea, which are listed in another chapter, are real-world herbs that have traditionally been used to treat various "female problems," not just for ending unwanted pregnancies. So maybe Margaery was just having really bad menstrual cramps?
- I'm not convinced that Margaery wasn't actually asking for moon tea, and then doing nothing with it, specifically to fuel Cersei's paranoia. I wouldn't put it past her to set herself up, and then get herself declared innocent as part of a plan to rid herself of Cersei. But because she was playing the long game, she couldn't account for the new High Septon being especially militant, and Loras (whom she would would clearly have chosen as her champion in her trial) running off to Dragonstone and getting himself wrecked.
- How exactly was Mirri Maz Duur able to use blood magic to kill Dany's unborn baby if magic didn't really come back into the world until the dragons were hatched?
- Magic is rarer and weaker before the dragons are hatched, but not non-existent. It appears to be more common the farther east you go, and especially common in Asshai, where Mirri is stated to have studied.
- The "fact" that all magic is gone from the world is a claim made by the Maesters at the Citadel. They are fervent denialists in this fallacy and not even all the Maesters agree to this; take Marwin. Marwin trained Mirri and Qyburn in the magic arts and he is a pursuant of the dark arts himself. If magic was indeed gone from the world, Bloodraven would not have been able to use it to spy during his time as Hand of the King and he would not have been able to use the weirwoods in the cave North of the Wall, nor there would be Wargs and skinchangers. Magic did dwindle, but it was never quite gone as the Maesters claimed.
Is Dany really infertile?
- Can we assume that Daenarys is in fact infertile just because Mirri Maz Duur said she is? I know Mirri supposedly used blood magic to kill Rhego in the womb but is there any proof of that? Isn't it more probable that she just tricked Dany into consuming Moon Tea or some other contraceptive herb? And are we just supposed to accept that Rhaego was born with reptilian features just because Mirri said so?
- IIRC Jorah also witnessed the baby, so we can be fairly sure that it actually was reptilian. Whether the miscarriage made Dany infertile is another matter. My personal theory is that Mirri made that up (or just made an educated guess) in order to hurt Dany, but wasn't actually speaking prophecy the way Dany assumes.
- The trouble in a medieval world without proper medical equipment is that really the only way to know for certain if a woman is capable of having a child is, well, if she has a child. Aside from that, all we can do is go on what we've seen. Dany suffered an incredibly traumatic birthing at an age where her reproductive organs probably weren't even fully developed. Her periods are very irregular and what she goes through after escaping with Drogon does sound like a early stage miscarriage. That seems to suggest that, for now, if she's not barren, she'll at least find it very difficult (Lysa difficult, perhaps?) to carry a child to full term.
- Rhaego was by all evidence a healthy fetus until shortly before he was stillborn, and Dany gave birth at roughly the expected time so he wasn't greatly premature. Therefore, since we know from Jorah that Rhaego WAS stillborn, we have to assume that something killed him in the womb immediately before birth. If it wasn't Mirri's magic, what was it? I don't remember her giving Dany anything to eat or drink. As to the fertility question, there's no proof that Dany is sterile now, but it would hardly be a surprise if she's suffered damage to her reproductive organs, as discussed above.
Does Arya know what Valar Morghulis means?
- Before studying in Braavos, that is. Does she know what the phrase means, or does she just repeat it as a mantra because it sounds cool? I don't recall Jaqen ever telling her, and it doesn't seem to be a very common saying outside of Essos, but she was educated in Winterfell and might have picked up a little Valyrian.
- Even if she doesn't know what the words mean, it's a phrase she associates with Jaqen, who is of course an assassin. Not too much of a stretch for her to incorporate it as valar morghulis = death.
- Initially, no. In A Clash of Kings she briefly wondered what it meant. Probably the first chance she had to learn it came when she finally reached the Faceless Men.
Absence of the Master of Ships
- So Stannis withdrew to Dragonstone ceasing all contact with the outside world. When Robert was still king that wasn't really a problem, but for the fact that he and the council took an invasion by Vyserys and his Dothraki army into consideration. Why isn't anyone concerned about the problems, that they not only are unable to contact their Master of Ships, don't know what he's up to (he could even be dead), but more importantly that he took almost the whole royal fleet and thus the Narrow Sea's main defense with him? Did they expect that Stannis would counter the whole invasion on his own? It doesn't even have to be an external threat, what if the Greyjoys or the Redwynes would exploit that situation?
- A dutiful man like Stannis could be relied upon to respond to a verified letter from Robert or even Ned declaring, "The realm is in peril. Invader X has raised a fleet and attacked Location Y. Bring the royal fleet at once."
Why make Littlefinger Lord Paramount of the Riverlands?
- Something that just occurred to me; why exactly would the Lannisters make Littlefinger the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, rather than Emmon Frey or his grandson Tywin? Littlefinger isn't related to the Lannisters in any way, and it seemed like the lordship of Harrenhal was enough to let him marry Lysa, so why wouldn't Tywin (who wants to build a mighty dynasty, remember) give the Riverlands to someone with Lannister blood? Heck, they could have done something like they did with Joffrey and Tommen, and have Tywin Frey identify as "Lord Tywin of the Houses Lannister and Frey". If Tyrion's marriage to Sansa had worked out and resulted in children, and if Tywin had managed to convince Cersei to marry Willas (I think he was one of the suggestions in the book, but can't quite remember) and have a child with him (or if she managed to have another child with Jaime in secret), that would have meant Lannister children would end up rulers of the Stormlands, Crownlands, Riverlands, Westerlands, the North and the Reach - s, everything in Westeros except for the Vale and Dorne! Why pass up such an opportunity to put another Lannister descendant in a very influential position?
- They actually think that they can control him. Tywin seems to have a tendency to overlook people who aren't born great lords, Cersei vastly overestimates how much power she has over anyone, Kevan is a follower, Pycelle's hardly incompetent at plotting but he's not a genius either and Genna isn't around to point out the dangers. Varys and Tyrion are probably two of the very few who have a sense of Littlefinger's real nature and Tyrion's lost all power by this point while Varys has his own angle. Weakening the Lannister monarchy even further for Aegon VI. And Harrenhal's reputation for being cursed and under the control of enemies at the time would make it a pretty minor reward. Or if you mean the stated reason why Tywin gave him it, Petyr's work in creating the Lannister-Tyrell alliance.
- Sure, I know they trust him, but that still doesn't explain why Tywin wouldn't try to give his own family another kingdom instead of handing it over to a lackey (besides, if they trusted him, would they really be that worried about him betraying them just because they didn't give him an entire kingdom?). Seems to me that if they really trusted him, they should have assumed he would have been content with a castle (or a few castles, for forging the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, if he complained that Harrenhal wasn't enough), especially considering his low birth (pretty much any castle would be better in comparison to his own holdings, I would think). It just seems like Tywin wasted a great opportunity to expand his family's influence just to give what he saw as a loyal crony an unreasonably large reward and indirectly humiliating his sister's family - let's remember Tywin resented how Genna was married to a Frey who would be unlikely to inherit anything. Well, here was the perfect opportunity to give her something big and important to compensate for their father's blunder.
- There's the implication (given Walder's shortsighted approach to upbringing his kids and Emmon's blustering ineptitude), that Tywin simply didn't have enough faith in they Freys to trust them with management of the Riverlands as a whole. Stevron was the only son who seemed to get any decent training in leadership, and he's dead.
- Robb was on his way back north to fight off the Ironborn, so while the Red Wedding was certainly useful, the North was soon to be a relative non-factor in the war, so the Freys' contribution could be considered less valuable than...
- Littlefinger's, who negotiated the Tyrell alliance that basically saved the Lannister's rule.
- So, the Freys (Tywin's relatives, specifically) get Riverrun, a fancy, defensible castle, but not a significant increase in power and prestige for the house as a whole.
- Littlefinger is made Lord Paramount as a reward for saving Joffrey's bacon. As the poster below points out, The cost of maintaining Harrenhal, and it's relative indefensibility serves as a reminder that his position is still not untouchable.
- Giving him Harrenhal and the associated lands makes some kind of sense; it's large and rich enough to be impressive, but indefensible without an immense fighting force that you couldn't field from the associated lands alone. That makes it a perfect reward for Littlefinger; since it's far more valuable in peacetime than wartime, it makes it in Schemy Mc Schemerson's best interests to scheme for peace under a Lannister crown. (Assuming he doesn't view it as merely a stepping stone to the Eyrie, that is! Oops, guess Tywin didn't bet on that.) Making him Lord Paramount of the Riverlands makes less sense; it's not as though Harrenhal is the Lord Paramount's traditional seat or anything. It's noteworthy that in the television show they give Riverrun (and by implication lordship of the Riverlands, although we've yet to see how that shakes out) directly to Walder Frey.
- Probably because of political precautions. Maybe Tywin didn't want to run the risk to upset the Riverlands even more by putting the Freys completely in charge, after all it's them who got all the credit for the RW and Tywin/the Lannisters are barely implied. Technically the Lannisters get power in the Riverlands through Genna, who is "only" a wife to another house. Basically Tywin makes it seem like his family indirectly got power throught the female line and he is sure he has Littlefinger under control, so he (thinks he) can formally control the Riverlands through someone who is neither Lannister nor Frey, grew up there and married to a Tully. That should keep the Riverlords somewhat happy while still not making a blatant power grab. Similar what happens with the Stormlands and Tommen (who is officially a Baratheon) or their plan to get the North through Sansa. Tywin wants to displace the other houses in the long run and without giving anyone really a chance to react. Besides, the day the Tully-Frey son is born, Edmure will lose his head and Littlefinger probably dominion over the Riverlands hoping that the Vale is enough for him.
- What exactly was Tywin's end-game? He clearly wants to advance his house to the point of displacing other great houses or even becoming the royal house through political maneuvering. It was probably not his initial goal but still he must have seen an opportunity after Robert's death. Cersei is queen regent, his grandson king, another one a prince with Myrcella being a very compelling asset to bring another house (Martells) in the fold.
The problem is that even in-universe characters seem to forget that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are Baratheons and officially the Lannisters' connection to the throne all hinges on them being from said house. It's also the basis on which they can formally dismiss Stannis' and Renly's claims which again works in Tywin's favor. Even if all goes according to plan and House Lannister can keep its influence over all siblings it's still no use to them in the long run.
Now this is just hypothetical of course:
Myrcella guarantees an alliance with Dorne for the current reign but she will be Myrcella Martell, mother of a new generation of Martells in Dorne. She really hasn't any bearing on anything the Lannisters do once Trystan becomes Lord of Sunspear.
Tommen will relocate and reign over the Stormlands.
Joffrey is king, the first of his name of House Baratheon. When he comes of age Cersei is just his mother who happens to be from House Lannister. Let's say he marries Margaery and they have a trueborn son. Now we have little Willas Baratheon who will ascend the throne after a long reign of terror by Joffrey the Cruel.
Little Willas thinks he is by all means a true stag, maybe even spending some time with his uncle Tommen and proud of his grandfather king Robert etc.
He probably will marry someone from a great house but probably not a Tyrell and it's very unlikely he'll marry into the Lannister family again (who's left anyway? His father was Cersei's kid and Jaime and Tyrion have no elligible heirs by that point. The situation we have now is that Westeros has still officially a Baratheon king on the throne and the Lannisters and Tyrells names don't even have any importance to the current royal dynasty. Yes sure, we know that this royal line has not a drop of Baratheon blood in it, but in the end Tywin didn't achieve anything but to actually solidify Baratheon legitimacy once and for all.
- Myrcella gives them eyes and ears and a voice in Dorne and (hypothetically, at least) ensures that Dorne will never go to war with them, at least for the current generation. Tommen does the same even more directly for the Stormlands, plus if/when he solidifies his rule there he'll be able to call the banners and put them at the crown's disposal if necessary. When Prince Willas "Baratheon" is born, the King's Hand (Tywin) either takes a direct hand in his education or convinces King Joffrey to send him to be fostered with a loyal Lannister household (ideally Jaime's, since in Tywin's ideal endgame Jaime is released from the Kingsguard, married, and groomed to be heir to the Rock). As for who Prince Willas will marry, there are plenty of Lannister cousins to betroth him to, most likely one of Lancel's kids (since in Tywin's ideal endgame, Lancel gets his shit together and starts popping out kids with his Frey wife), which keeps Lannister blood in the royal line and a Lannister voice in the king's ear. It may be a stag on the banner, but it's lions wielding the power. Meanwhile Tyrion and Sansa are popping out Lannister babies and flying the lion banner all over the North.
- That's the thing though, it can't go on forever. The Lannisters are stuck with the Baratheon name on the throne. And if Tommen's descendants in the Stormlands and Joffrey's descendants in the crownlands keep marrying in other families the Lannisters' power is just diminishing more, especially after Tywin's death. They even run the risk that the Tommen branch keeps marrying Stormlanders and that the royal branch doesn't produce any heirs in the worst case. The only way they could establish Lannister rule is in a scenario where only a female Baratheon is left, who produces a Lannister baby and doesn't keep her name, but achieving those circumstances are minimal especially during Tywin's lifetime.
- It's true that it would require constant scheming to ensure continued beneficial Lannister marriages and keep the crown under the Lannisters' thumb, but that's true of all of the Great Houses: their fortunes will only continue to rise under strong and competent leadership, and that leadership has to continue from generation to generation. The irony of the thing is that, of Tywin's children, Tyrion is the best-suited to continue that kind of scheming, having the ability, the temperament, and even the family loyalty until the family screwed him so hard that he finally lost it. And he is even the legal heir after Jaime takes the white. If Tywin had declared Tyrion his heir, taken him under his wing, and taught him everything he knew, Tyrion would have been in a perfect position to continue stewarding the Lannister dynasty for another generation. Instead, well, we all know what happens.
- Sadly, Tyrion being best-suited was too little, far too late. Due to people in his life treating him like crap (read: Anyone not named Jaime Lannister) he acted like his actions didn't matter, and basically just relied on his family name to get him out of crap like Jaime pre-stump. It wasn't until he actually was placed in a position of power that he revealed he was actually good at it; and by then it was too late. Tywin always expected Jaime to do the right thing and quite the Kingsguard to become his heir, and by the time it was obvious that wasn't going to happen, Tyrion had already made a name for himself as the Imp, which is pretty much what made Tywin not trust him, dwarf or no dwarf. Tyrion, while more like Tywin, spend most of his life acting more like Tywin's father Tytos: weak to wine, whores, and irresponsibly throwing his money around. Tywin would be DAMNED to give the reins (ha) of his family to someone like his father, after all of the crap that he'd gone through to build the Lannister reputation back up. In Tywin's eyes, naming Tyrion his heir would have led to Tyrion running the Lannister name into the ground like his father had. Tywin was too haunted by his father to see that Tyrion was more like him, and by the time this became apparent, it was too late to change his opinion of him. Ironically, what caused Tywin to finally realize that Tyrion was nothing like the weak Tytos was when Tyrion killed him.
- Most certainly. But it appeared like Tywin actually wanted to establish the Lannisters on the throne so they won't have to scheme every generation just to have influence in King's Landing. At least he must have been aware that it just takes another Tytos to undo all his work. While he himself is a capable politician and thought he had a long-term plan, too much hinged on the delusion that Jaime will take his place at Casterly Rock and that he will produce a line of perfect Lannisters, which wasn't guaranteed either.
Consequences for the Greyjoys
- Why did the Lannisters not push for a harsher punishment after the Greyjoy Rebellion? They completely destroyed their fleet and basically humiliated them on their own territory. This happens a lot in Westeros of course, but we are talking about Tywin Lannister here who had influence in King's Landing on top of that. They messed up the youngest Greyjoy brother, but let him free after the rebellion and then they didn't even get Theon or some other form of compensation. Tywin eradicted two houses with impunity for disrespecting him and while the Greyjoys are a great house on their own, he or any other Lannister don't even seem to hold any real grudge against them. On the contrary, the Greyjoys were even a potential ally during the civil war.
- One of Tywin's philosophies is that when somebody bends the knee, you help them back to their feet. Balon surrendered, Robert accepted, so there wasn't much Tywin could do from a practical standpoint, even if he were so inclined. Short of demanding Theon be sent to Casterly Rock instead of Winterfell (and he might have, for all we know). But like you said, the Lannisters got humiliated, so Tywin wouldn't exactly be negotiating from a position of strength there. Knowing Tywin, it was probably enough that Balon got the worst of it in the end.
- The main issue is that everyone is pointing fingers and holding grudges stemming from this conflict for complete irrelevant reasons or things out of their control(be it Ned for having Theon/"killing" Balon's other sons, Stannis being in charge of the Royal Fleet, etc),except the two houses who are known for their impunity. The Greyjoys did not only do substantial material damage to the Lannisters, but also weakened their military power and possibly their trading capacities. One would think that Tywin would at least negotiate that the Greyjoys should replace the sunken fleet with their own as compensation. On the other hand a Greyjoy got captured and tortured in Lannister dungeons for approximately a year, yet there's no hard feelings from that side either. Balon losing the conflict could be punishment enough, that's true, but the Lannisters had no bearing on his defeat. They were soundly defeated and had to sit back helplessy while the Baratheons crushed the Greyjoys. That had to be just salt in the wound for a man like Tywin.
- The question if she actually has the right to the throne or not aside, why did none of her advisors tell her to actually press her claim in Westeros? Even Renly, who obviously had no legal grounds for becoming king, became offically a claimant because he declared himself as such. Daenerys probably doesn't know any better, but it's quite an oversight on the part of her Westerosi advisors.
- What are you talking about? Her whole goal is to get back to Westeros at the head of an army and press her claim. The question is not "whether" but "when and how" she will do this. Jorah wanted her to do it with Unsullied but Arstan disagreed, nobody (least of all the readers) wants her to faff about for two books sitting on her thumbs in Meereen, etc.
- Yes, that's her intention as far as readers know. But regardless if she's on another continent and can't even go to Westeros yet, it still never occurred to anyone in her entourage to actually proclaim her queen in Westeros. Jalabhar Xho is a prince in exile without an army and stuck in Westeros but it's still possible and likely that he already pressed his claim on the Summerislands and his countrymen know about it.
- They proclaim her the queen of Westeros all the time; it's typically in her list of titles somewhere in between "Stormborn" and "Breaker of Chains, Mother of Dragons, Fucker of Horselords." Are you asking why she hasn't sent an envoy ahead to say, "Yo, Westeros! Queen coming!"? I imagine because she's not eager to have her envoy hanged for treason by the claimants that are already there with big armies for no good reason. The Seven Kingdoms know she's out there, they just don't think about her much because she's halfway across the world and have more pressing problems. It's not like Stannis or Balon are going to say, "Oh, shit, that baby Targaryen that left a decade and a half ago is on her way back? Well, that settles that, we'll just chill until it's time to swear fealty to her" or anything.
- Yes, that's the point. She thinks she's queen while at the current state she isn't even a claimant and never laid claim on the Iron Throne. At all. It became even more obvious that this was an oversight, since now we have the Aegon situation and it became even less likely that Westerosi even believe she's the real deal. Mainly because she never sent out her proclamation. A lot of characters don't even know that she exists and most of those who do, even assume she simply wants to stay in Meereen.
- What would be the advantage to sending word ahead? At best a few Targaryen loyalists start sewing banners in secret and maybe get hanged for treason if they're found out. At worst two or more of the rival factions take her seriously as a threat, do the enemy-of-my-enemy truce thing, and dig in for her army's arrival. If she had a half-decent spymaster she could send spies to try to suss out folks who might be sympathetic to her return like the Martells on the DL, but she doesn't (unless you count Illyrio who she doesn't trust, rightly or wrongly). But there's zero advantage to sending someone with banners and trumpets to make a big proclamation.
- Ravens or something similar, just like the others did. You don't have to make a big pompous entrance, have to attack someone or even be present in person just to make a proclamation. The point is that because failing to do a common formality she has now the additional problem of people not even believing she's a real Targaryen after all and if there were secret Targaryen supporters they will throw their eggs in the Aegon basket. Which became (somewhat) a plot point, so yes there was obviously an advantage of doing so in-universe.
- There does not appear to be any raven traffic across the Narrow Sea. She could send somebody to Westeros and have them try to find a master willing to send a bunch of leaflets reading "Hey Westeros! Queen coming!" as widely as possible (similar to what Stannis does with his accusations that Cersei's children are illegitimate), I suppose, but I'm still not seeing the advantage. Notice that Aegon doesn't send word ahead either: he gathers an army in secret, makes a surprise attack to gain himself a foothold, and then proclaims himself. Dany's not likely to go quite that far— she doesn't have the cover of being a "mercenary company" and would find it much harder to move her army into place in secret— but there's no real reason to make a formal proclamation until she's much closer either.
- The bottom line in that case is that Aegon does proclaim himself way before Daenerys, regardless in what manner he does it. Actually it's a bit similar to the Baratheon situation now that you bring it up: The one with the weaker right to the throne (assuming Aegon is a not the real deal) gathers an army and proclaims himself before their relative with the better claim. In Stannis' case it didn't help that he held out so long, and while not the main issue, Renly's proclamation only gives Stannis' claim even less credibility since now it looks even more like he's just an opportunist. In the Targaryens case it's that Aegon presses his claim and makes Dany look like she's just a Valeryan imposter or something, because she never put claim on the throne but suddenly appears too on the political radar, just after someone else did come forward in the name of her House. It's maybe less about getting an advantage but more about not putting yourself in an even bigger disadvantage. Besides, one would think that someone like Barristan for example would be A) pretty much thourough when it comes to formalities like this and B) try to give his cause as much official credibility as possible to justify his switch of loyalty.
- She didn't know Aegon (or "Aegon"; I'm one of those who believes he's a fake) was even a factor, though. I absolutely agree that she should have beat feet to Westeros as soon as she had an army; even discounting Aegon, delay just gives the Lannisters time to consolidate their rule, while showing up while the war is still on gives her time to try to cut a deal with the North and/or Dorne and/or one or both of the Baratheons. (Balon probably wouldn't have played ball, but she could have tried.) That still doesn't make it a good idea to send heralds blowing trumpets months or years ahead of her arrival.
- Actually Show!Stannis had a point in that regard. Long before he actually took action he made sure that he "let no man claim ignorance".
- What would he gain by calling attention to everyone in Westeros that she intends to come back and become Queen? She has no army to back up her claim, at most she'll be painting a target on her head for even more assassination attempts. For her own safety, it's better that few know she's coming, and she's damn lucky the ones who do know about the threat she poses greatly underestimate her. How many times do you think Jorah and Selmy would be able to save her life if a handful of different assassins showed up every other week?
- People in Westeros roll with the fact that Robb turns into a wolf, so they barely know what Dany's up to. She doesn't have to say "hey, I got a huge army and come to kill you all", she has to say "I am the rightful queen". Formalities aside, this probably would make some loyalists secretely send manpower and ressources her way, it's not like Wetseros is completely monitored and closed off. Can't support someone who you don't know needs support/exists. Besides, only one assassin got sent by a Westerosi, Robert who did it mainly because of personal reasons, the rest were almost exclusively by political enemies in Essos she made ironically because she made so many detours.
- No it wouldn't help her. Stannis made his declaration with an army in the field and to make sure that the Westerosi nobility couldn't conspire to keep Joffrey's lineage a secret, while also publicly putting them on the spot of where their loyalties should go. Daenarys has no forces present to press the issue, presenting a formal claim would result in whoever she sent being locked up at best, anyone who even started to rally to her would probably be detected and suppressed on very strict instruction from the Lannisters and there's nothing ninety-nine percent of Westeros could even do to help, while the remaining one percent of people in Westeros who are helping her by weakening the 'Baratheon' regime really don't need the attention this could throw on them. This point is just hammered home by Connington's tactics when Aegon lands, ordering the soldiers to avoid using the Targaryean banners that would be a clue to his identity so that they can keep their enemies uncertain as to what's going on until Aegon's ready to publicly press his claim. Currently, Daenarys is actually benefiting from the lack of publicity, as late as the end of A Dance With Dragons her enemies in Westeros are paying little attention to her.
- Robert put a price on her head already. The people of Westeros are well aware of her as a claimant.
House Martell's priorities
- Why did Doran have to absolutely put a Targaryen on the throne? The Martells are not in the game for power nor for independence, but for revenge. Of course he had to plan years ahead with the arranged marriage of his daughter to Viserys, but even that was nothing set in stone or even something the last Targaryens accepted or even were aware of. They have no obligations to house Targaryen, they were grieving for Elia and her children, not the people who disrespected them publicy and then blackmailed them to get involved in a lost war all of which ended up killing Elia and her kids in the first place. One would think they would take a more viable option like Stannis, who has almost the same exact enemies and an unmarried daughter in Trystane's age. Even though he's a Baratheon, they probably know that he disliked Robert and would favor them over the Tyrells, who he also hates anyway. Had they taken that road, the Starks would probably have had joined before Robb's coronation, to get rid of the Lannisters asap.
- Pragmatism. The Martells would be in a prime position to become the most powerful House in Westeros by marrying into the weakened Targaryen line. They've done so in the past and benefited.
- But the Baratheon line is just as weakened and close by. At least as soon Joffrey's legitimacy was questioned and Viserys dead one would think Doran would re-evaluate his plans.
- Pragmatism, plus Values Dissonance. In the Honor Before Reason world of Westeros, to some folks, family is everything. Not just for their own family, but other families, too. We, as readers, say "Baratheon" and think three distinct factions (the King's Landing Baratheons under Robert and then Joffrey, the Dragonstone Baratheons under Stannis, and the Storm's End Baratheons under Renly) made up of dozens of major individuals, each with their own priorities, agendas, and behaviors. Doran thinks "Baratheon" and he thinks "those assholes who let the Lannisters kill my sister, niece, and nephew, and then wouldn't turn the killers over to us for justice afterward." It's easy for us, with our modern sensibilities, to say, "Dude, different Baratheon." To him, a Baratheon is a Baratheon, and jumping into bed with them would be a grievous blow to his family's honor; it would make them Les Collaborateurs at the very least. It's galling enough for him to acknowledge Robert's kingship at all, and Robert was smart enough to leave them more or less to their own affairs. The only surprising thing about Dorne's role in the whole mess is that Tyrion, who is usually quite smart about these things, thought it was a good idea to offer Myrcella in betrothal to Trystane given Dorne's deep-seated grudge against Baratheons and Lannisters, and that Doran took him up on it.
- Yes, you're right in that regard and I took this also in consideration, but at that point he has fought openly against the other Baratheons, Lannisters and Tyrells who are all far more bitter rivals of the Martells than Stannis ever could be by simply being a Baratheon. During Clash of Kings it was even suggested that Doran might have supported Renly, just because he had the biggest army (pragmatic reasons) and more importantly even Tywin expressed concern that Stannis might actually rally the Dornish to his cause after Renly's death, so Doran not only makes a distinction between the Baratheons but isn't above making alliances with them either. Ultimately he actually did join a Baratheon, and the one who is a known monster, officially Robert's son and has a Lannister mother nonetheless. It was made very clear that the Martells put most blame on the Lannisters and absolutely hate the Tyrells, something they clearly have in common with Stannis and they had no problems accepting Myrcella Baratheon (regardless of the motives), so they could just as well have taken Shireen, no matter if they plan to stay loyal to Stannis or not. Either way they want to have a Baratheon princess with a Martell husband to wage war against the Lannisters, which was something Stannis was already doing in the first place anyway. Staying neutral was in their favor since they could continue the royal line legally by all laws of Westeros (Shireen is the sole heir and female) and be rid of both the Lannisters and Tyrells, as Stannis was pissed at those who actively defied him, not the ones that didn't take sides since he gave them the benefit of the doubt. On top off that he could easily displace the Tyrells for good with the Florents and the Dornish seem to be relatively lax on religion given their culture, particulary Obara implying that there may even be some followers of R'hllor in Dorne, which would make them the only region that wouldn't necessarely conflict with his faith by default.
- Dorne isn't in all that good of a position to make any sort of gains without a powerful sponsor. Dorne is the weakest of the Seven Kingdoms. As mentioned in other supplements, they weren't conquered by the Targaryens because they live in a desert, not because they're badasses. It's a bit like Russia in the weather is one of the worst obstacles. Doran Martell's plan is to align with the Targaryens and press himself into the position of second most powerful House. However, there's really nothing he can bring any of the other families that they can't get elsewhere. The plan isn't a perfectly rationale one either as it depends on a lot of cooperation from Daenerys which she's not yet agreed to give. Sadly, in the end, the plan is much like Balon Greyjoy's plans. It's made of nostalgia for the past as much as practicality. Of course, people seem to be underestimating the importance of MARRYING into the Targaryen family. Stannis is already married, follows a new god, and his daughter has Greyscale. Renly has a better marriage offer from the Tyrells. The others are the pawns of Tywin, who murdered and raped their sister/daughter.
- Upon further reflection, yes that pretty much sums it up. I think a lot of the top players in Westeros get hindred by some wishful thinking. Doran and Balon because of some sort of nostalgia and Tywin because he still somehow hopes Jaime will be (and is) everything he wants him to be. The only thing I could disagree with is that Stannis exactly is a faction that doesn't necessarly can get what Doran can offer elsewhere. Both would have actual mutual benefits from each other For Doran it would be a charade in either case, so Shireen's greyscale would probably not matter to him much and Stannis would have nothing to lose by marrying her to the heir of a great house. But in hindsight the question is probably more about why neither Doran NOR Stannis even brought up the possibilty to work together if other characters even considered it a viable option. Although it might have been too late anyway since Myrcella was already shipped off to prevent exactly that scenario among others. (If that even would matter at that point since Stannis denounced her as not legit in the first place).
- I'm not entirely sure I believe the claim that Dorne is the weakest of the Seven Kingdoms. They certainly aren't the strongest, but Tyrion at one point mentions their forces number at 50k soldiers, which is impressive given that the North and the Riverlands combined could only muster about 40k; numbers aren't everything, of course, given that The Northern/RL forces consistently defeated the numerically superior Westerlands, but that's still a sizeable force to contend with. If nothing else, so long as the Iron Islands exist, I have a hard time buying Dorne as the weakest of the Seven.
- Dorne is one of the least populous regions of Westeros and quite isolated. The most influence Dorne ever had on Westeros was during the late Targaryen era of Westeros.
- Actually Dorne doesn't have that many soldiers. In his Conquest of Dorne Daeron I exaggerated the strength of the Dornish to make his victory appear greater. Dorne continues this myth so they appear stronger.
The undefeated Kraken
- Euron claims at the Kingsmoot that he's the only undefeated living Kraken and nobody of the attending Ironborn objects to that statement. What was he doing during the Greyjoy Rebellion then? It's explicitly stated that he came up with the plan to assault Lannisport, Balon lost the rebellion as a whole while on Pyke, Aeron got captured and Victarion got crushed at Fair Island. This can of course still mean that Euron technically didn't lose a battle, but he had to surrender at some point regardless. Or does this simply imply that he was still fighting somewhere when Balon bent the knee?
- It could be the ironborn are not the most discerning electorate, but even if Euron was forced to bend the knee after the rebellion so were all the other surviving ironborn of note, so they really can't hold that against him. In addition, neither Theon or Asha recall being forced to bend the knee to Robert personally, implying that Robert was content once the lord paramount submitted, which would mean if Euron were still fighting somewhere he might have avoided even that disgrace.
Building a fleet
- The moment Ned lifted the siege on Storm's End, Robert tasked Stannis to build(!) a fleet and then to capture Dragonstone. Who came up with that idea? That seems to be extremely unpractical because A) what made Robert/Jon Arryn think that Stannis was particulary qualified for naval warfare? B) the Redwynes just bent the knee and their fleet was right there at the Stormlands, C)the main priority was to get the remaining Targs as fast as possible. One can somewhat understand that Robert might blame Stannis for arriving too late, but ultimately it's his own damn fault. If he absolutely wanted a Baratheon to take Dragonstone, he should've simply put Stannis and his Stormlanders on the Redwynes' existing and much more experienced fleet and let him do the actual fighting on the ground. After that he could always give his brother Dragonstone and let him build a new Royal/Baratheon fleet.
- You said it yourself: The Redwyne had just bent the knee. Who in their right mind would order loyalists who just surrendered a few days ago to engage the substantial remaining Targaryen fleet in a pitched battle (You can't plan on them being destroyed in a storm) in order to capture and (considering the fate of Rhaegar's children) likely brutally murder the remaining heirs to the loyalist cause. And just commandeering the ships would be a nasty breach of the feudal system that would set even more lords against Robert. As for Stannis as commander, he was still treated as the most expendable rebel leader: Robert, Jon Arryn, and Tywin Lannister had to hold the capital and hash out their new alliance, Ned was hunting Lyanna in the Dornish Marches, and Hoster Tully had concerns in the Riverlands such as his pregnant daughter and making up with loyalist riverlords like the Goodbrooks.
- But that would be a pretty good occasion to let them prove their loyalty right there and Stannis + Baratheon bannermen would have made up the bulk of the forces anyway. It's not like the Redwynes were necesseraly Targaryen loyalists, they are still answering to the Tyrells who have nothing to gain from staying "loyal" to the Targs either. The Reachmen already got away relatively unscathed as it is, so why push their luck by unnecessarily resisting the new dynasty?
- No certainty that it wouldn't result in the Targaryeans being smuggled out or some other treachery. Even if they would be outnumbered by Baratheon forces, which wouldn't be at all certain, this would be putting one recently loyal force very close to another loyalist force and hoping that they would prove their loyalty to the new regime. With Stannis, Robery had certainty of the loyalty of the soldiers.
- Robert already sits on the throne while the other regions bent the knee and 5 of them are reigned over by close friends or by in-laws. The question at that point was not if the Targaryens would regain power but if the remaining ones would be rooted out or not. The Redwynes pulling a fast one would only jeopardize their own and their lieges' holdings. They really haven't anything to win, but everything to lose.
Why the hairnet?
- Question: Why exactly do Littlefinger and Olenna smuggle in the poison via Sansa's hairnet? Unless they were doing through searches of the elderly mother of the Lord of Highgarden how would they ever find a tiny purple crystal?
- This way if anyone is caught red-handed for any unforeseen reason, it's Sansa, not them. And if everything went well, they could point to her as the culprit (Tyrion putting himself in a situation that makes him the perfect suspect seems to have been completely coincidental). For Littlefinger, this means she has even less of a reason to deny his rescue offer, for Olenna, it means she can deny any Tyrell involvement in the murder attempt.
- The hairnet scheme also dead-ends any attempt to trace the procurement of the poison. Instead of it being discovered (however improbably) that the Tyrells were seeking Strangler crystals awhile back, the poison is smuggled in by Littlefinger and passed through intermediaries Dontos and Sansa to the poisoner Olenna, leaving almost no connection between the purchase and the use.
Was Shae forced to lie about Tyrion?
- When Tyrion confronts Shae, she claims the queen and Tywin forced her to do it. Is there any reason to doubt this? We know that Tywin Lannister has no problem ordering violence against women—or worse. And we know he has a low opinion of whores while at the same time using them for his enjoyment. And we certainly know there's nothing Cersei won't do to ensure Tyrion is punished. Given all that, what evidence is there that Shae betrayed Tyrion willingly? At the very least she knew she'd be tossed out of King's Landing and forced to fend for herself, and for a woman alone in Westeros that's punishment enough. Suddenly Tyrion's revenge starts to look a lot like a severe case of Disproportionate Retribution....
- She was almost certainly forced. We don't know if she did what they wanted reluctantly or whether she was just fine with it, but there's every reason to assume that she would have been put to death at the very least if she hadn't played along. As for whether her death was Disproportionate Retribution, that depends what you mean. As revenge, yes, definitely disproportionate. As self-defense, though... Tyrion doesn't know how willingly she went along with their plans either. His options are 1.) leave her behind, a witness who might be able to point the guards to the secret passage before he can complete his escape, 2.) take her with him and trust that she won't betray him at the first opportunity for the hope of further reward from his father, and 3.) kill her. #1 is, obviously, a terrible option. #2 requires an incredible amount of trust; all it takes is a scream for help (or, not for nothing, a knife in the back; that crossbow is not going to be the best weapon in the ultra-confined secret passage) as soon as his back is turned, and he's screwed. #3 is the most ruthless but also the safest and most pragmatic option. It's doubtful he was thinking about it quite that rationally— it seemed a spur-of-the-moment crime of passion rather than cold-blooded and premeditated— but those were his choices. I honestly can't say what I'd have done in his shoes.
- The self-defense argument doesn't work for two reasons: 1) Tyrion deliberately went back to his father's bedroom to confront Tywin, so he wasn't worried about being detected, and 2) it says specifically in the text that Tyrion killed Shae because she called him "my giant of Lannister," not out of any sense of self-preservation. He had every reason to be angry at a lot of people, but looking at the facts, it looks a great deal like he took it out on a woman who was just trying to stay alive.
- If he wasn't worried about being detected, he would have tried to first sneak, then if necessary cut a bloody swathe, from the Tower of the Hand to Cersei's quarters and off her too. Self-preservation was clearly on his priority list. He was willing to take a risk for the chance of revenge on his father, but he hadn't gone full Death Seeker. All that being said, yes, it was a crime of passion committed by a man who'd been pushed to the edge. He may or may not have done the same thing if he'd been clear of head at the time.
Why wasn't Cersei freaking out about the prophecy when Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey?
- Sansa was certainly less threatening than Margaery, but was young and beautiful. Cersei didn't seem to oppose the marriage before Ned was declared traitor (ie. at the time when Sansa was still a member of an influential family), and after that she just insisted for Sansa to remain Joff's bride-to-be. Although Cersei certainly made sure to break Sansa's spirit, she would still one day become the queen who according to the prophecy would overthrow Cersei. It just seems like Martin came up with Cersei's backstory and motivations after that arc and didn't care too much to make it consistent.
- Based on what we do know of her, it's possible that Martin wrote those details later but it's also very likely that Cersei just didn't intend for Sansa to ever actually become queen.
- Considering that Cersei tells Sansa that the real reason she has Ilyn Payne around during the Battle of Blackwater is because she wants him to kill them both if Stannis wins, the latter interpretation may just be the correct one.
- There's also the possibility Cersei simply didn't see Sansa as a threat based on her personality. Margaery likes to pretend she's meek and innocent, but it's always been pretty clear that she's a pretty good player, whereas Sansa was always just a pawn.
- Cersei is getting increasingly unhinged as the series progresses. She may have been thinking more clearly when Sansa and Joff were engaged. By the fourth book, she's drinking all the time, and her paranoia is clearly taking over. Before, she was at least sane, if still ruthless. Now she's ruthless and completely bonkers.
- Considering the way Cersei "coaches" Sansa, she might have been under the impression that Sansa was somewhat her creature. Cersei was letting her be Joffrey's consort because she didn't see an authoritative person in her. When Margaery came into the fold, Cersei saw Sansa as everyone did, a glorified hostage and she must have decided that she wanted something better for Joffrey, so she accepted the dissolution. It wasn't until she realized that Margaery wasn't under her influence that she started to freak out.
Kingsguard justify serving the Mad King Aerys?
- I know the Kingguard took oaths to serve to protect the king, obey him, and keep his secrets. At the same time, when they became knights they took oaths to protect women, the innocent in general, the weak, and uphold justice. Several of the kingsguard under Aerys were supposed to be shining examples of all a knight should be: Ser Barristan Selmy, Ser Arthur Dayne, and Ser Gerold Hightower. How did they justify to themselves if nothing else their service to Aerys when it violated their oaths to protect the innocence and always be just? Aerys brutalized his wife, perverted trials, and murdered the innocent. For that matter, why do none of them ever receive any condemnation for serving that monster? Instead, they are held up as examples to be emulated? Or is being a member of the Kingsguard the oaths to the king take precedence over any other oaths including what a knight is supposed to be?
- If I remember right, when Jaime remembers how brutal Aerys was to his wife, he mentions having asked a fellow guard how come they cannot protect the queen when they swore to protect the women and innocent. The other knight is visibly just as appalled by Aerys' behaviour as Jaime is, but his only answer is "We did swear to protect her, but not from him." Meaning, if it goes against the king, they can do jack shit, no matter how terrible they feel about it. As to why none are condemned except the one person who had the balls to finish that madman, no idea.
- This is one of the dilemmas Jaime has to deal with for most of his life: to protect the king or to protect the realm. Gerold Hightower is special in the fact that he addressed Jaime when the Mad King was burning the Starks to remember his vows; this can be taken in two ways: the way that Jaime sees it, that this guy is supposed to be the knight in shining armor doing something tremendously hypocritical; and a second way: Hightower, as his last name implies, is a devout man to the Faith of Seven. Seeing that Aerys was mocking the gods by performing a "Trial by Combat", he told Jaime to remember his vows as to console himself of a blasphemy of that size, trying to find reason among the hubris.
- The Kingsguard knights probably thought that "Rhaegar will take over one day, then we can be in the clear". In any case, Aerys only went crazy, really crazy in his final years. For most of the time he was a playboy and a fop, coming up with hare-brained schemes that he got bored of and was fairly harmless. Even the marital rape picked up later. Arthur Dayne did appeal to his good nature successfully and got him to support the smallfolk in the Kingswood area as Jaime mentions. Aerys also granted Barristan's request to spare the kid who became Dontos Hollard. So I think the Kingsguard were trapped in Conflicting Loyalty and they didn't know what to do. I'd like to think that almost any of them in Jaime's position would do what he did to Aerys when the time came, since they weren't at the capital at the time Aerys was piling up the wildfire. They were in Dorne guarding Lyanna Stark...
Dany's plot armour
- So I saw at the YMMV page that some people accuse Dany of having Plot Armor at the start, and some (probably different) people cry Badass Decay when she makes some less than stellar Honor Before Reason decisions in Essos (mainly in Meereen.) Isn't it simply a combination of beginner's luck and her earlier blunders (such as leaving Yunkai so soon) catching up to her, along with her dragons growing (which everyone expected to do but nobody knew what would happen as they grow)? I mean she admitted she stayed in Meereen in part to learn how to rule (another part being she considers her people her children and a third being that she suspected if she left Meereen would reestabilish slavery just as Yunkai did.)
- One of the plot points regarding Dany's reluctance has to do with her constant dreams regarding Quaithe. Quaithe repeatedly tells Dany that she is not supposed to be there and that she "has to remember who she is". It's fair to point out that a number of people, including Quaithe and Jorah Mormont want Dany to go to Asshai for some reason, so it might not be what Dany has to do, but rather what these people want from her, and this involves for her to stop dicking around in Slaver's Bay.
- OP here. Those are good points but none answer my question, which was about the fandom's opinion.
- It's fair to say that Dany has never been engaged in battle, considering that she is not a warrior. She has been wise in surrounding herself with good fighters and there's the dragon presence as well. There is also the fact that during their reign, the Targs did not have any trouble with all the rest of the lords because they thought they were untouchable and divine. This lasted them for more than 100 years before the lords realized that the Targs were just as human and killable as any normal human. Daenerys might be also protected by Plot Armor because there is a bunch of parties (like Quaithe) that are interested in her fulfilling prophecy; the reach that these parties have in her protection is a matter of debate.
- I don't think Dany has Plot Armour anymore than Tyrion, Arya, Sansa or Jon Snow does, and I happen to think Plot Armour is words used when people see a "strong female character" being treated like The Hero in the same way that men are. In any case, Dany is tied to magic and she is confused about what kind of ruler should she be. Is she able to do the grindwork, the long haul and build peace, or will she do more by outright conquest and realtering the map. I think at the end of Book 5, she has decided that she's going to be the latter.
- Well, this troper is one of those people who thinks she has ridiculous plot armor. It has been pretty apparent since the introduction of the Others (fire kills wights; dragonglass kills Others) and Dragons (fire given form) that the two will be in conflict with one another. The epic final battle. This means that astute reader never really thinks that her life is at risk because it would completely abort her arc and the entire reason she had a POV perspective to begin with. It has nothing to do with her being a "strong female character," which I don't think she is really to begin with. She makes the majority of her decisions based on emotions (including anger), which is a stereotype women have tried to free themselves from for a long, long time. But, back to these rash decisions, they are something that would inevitably kill another character. Most character's deaths can be traced back to one single bad decision. Ned wanted to spare Cersei's children Robert's wrath (dead), Robert wanted to hunt while drunk (dead), Theon wanted to take Winterfell (maimed), Robb broke a vow and married for love (dead), Tyrion led a sortie and thought his only enemies on the battlefield were Baratheon men (maimed), Lysa trusted the wrong man (dead), Jamie's pride contributed to him and Brienne being captured (maimed), Jeor Mormant took a large group of rangers composed of mostly criminals north of the wall (dead), Quentyn was more willing to face a dragon than go home empty handed (dead), and the list goes on. She has made many mistakes that would have flat out killed any other character, and Essos is depicted as being especially more dangerous (as far as human rights go) than Westeros. There's really no reason why someone hasn't shot an arrow into her during one of her many public appearances, especially when the Sons of the Harpy were rebelling against her. If Xaro really wanted a dragon, he could have easily killed her for all three and made it look like an accident. People say that she has suffered for her actions, but teenage anghst is not the same as dying or losing a swordhand/nose. Unless this is somehow lampshaded or completely backfires on her, it just seems so out of place in this story.
Stannis and Edric Storm
- Would Stannis really have let Melisandre kill Edric Storm? Robert is dead, Renly is dead, Stannis is convinced that none of Robert's children are legitimate, and he doesn't have any sons of his own. It's strongly implied that his wife Selyse is barren now, sometime after the birth of their daughter. Stannis seems too honorable to divorce her. Edric Storm, being a confirmed son of Robert Baratheon, would seem the best choice for continuing the Baratheon name. Even if Stannis had killed him and used his blood to win the throne, that would leave him without a potential heir. The Lannisters had most of the other options killed, and Stannis doesn't know about Gendry (in the books, at least). We know he's willing to mess around on his wife, but actually siring a bastard of his own is a whole new ball game, and not something I see him trying to do.
- Stannis only cares about doing things by the books. He wants to be king because he's the rightful heir of Robert, he doesn't want to establish a long-lasting dynasty like the Lannisters do. He probably would never think of legitimising a bastard only to keep a Baratheon on the throne (legitimising one to get himself on the throne, as is his right, being a completely different matter), he'd just let proper succession take its course after his death (meaning his daughter, if she's still alive, becomes the queen, and failing that some distant relative who may or may not have the Baratheon name inherits everything).
Targs in Dragonstone
- Why were the Targaryens able to establish an outpost in Dragonstone in the first place when the Westerosi Kings were said to be extremely territorial? Was there any degree of anonymity or concealment that allowed them to go undetected? Why were dragonlords (lesser, but dragonlords nonetheless) allowed to come so near to Westeros?
- To my knowledge, the Seven Kingdoms have never had much of a navy except for the Ironborn so getting to the island in the first place might have been difficult. And while they were territorial they needed much of their military forces to keep each other at bay so it may be a case where no one wanted to expend the resources to get rid of them. The Crownlands were in dispute between different kingdoms which made them the perfect landing spot since the kingdoms would be busy fighting each other. Finally, Dragonstone has no real strategic value or resources. It is a craphole which is why Stannis considered it an insult. It's only advantage is it can be used to either defend or blockade King's Landin from sea and at the time there was no King's Landing. So the nearby kingdoms may have just not given the Targaryens much thought being too focused internally and figured if the Targaryens want a worthless rock let them have it. It wasn't worth the trouble nor was it large enough to build up a large enough army for serious invasion. So more a case of why bother trying to get it back?
- Personally I had always assumed it functioned at least partly as a trading outpost; the houses of Westeros had to get those Valarian Steel weapons from somewhere.
Robert's Fledgling Allies
- It's known that Robert Baratheon did mismanage his kingdom by making himself absent from all government-related matters. At the time of his rebellion, Robert brought enemies into his camp and turned him into allies on his charisma alone and made friends where no one expected. How then did Robert find himself basically abandoned by the time AGOT happened? His allies were gone by then, but he still had a strong support at the time of the Greyjoy rebellion just nine years before and unexpectedly so, as Balon found out. Why did no one else vouch for Robert when he asked Ned Stark to become Hand of the King? Where the hell did everyone else go? Was Robert unable to pull favors from anyone else for some reason? Was it the Lannisters' doing?
- It's not quite clear what this question means. Most of the lords were busy doing what they usually were when they weren't calling banners to march to war, looking after their lands. That's just what Ned Stark, probably Robert's most loyal ally, was doing before Robert asked him to come to Kingslanding.
- OP here. To be more clear: of all the people Robert Baratheon originally rallied to his cause, and considering that he was Lord of the Stormlands before the rebellion with a great deal of bannermen behind him, no one else was suitable later to become Hand? A man that was capable enough to rouse enemies as friends did not have anyone else to become his Hand? Did he go to Ned just because it was the easiest choice?
- Are you forgetting that Ned and Robert were unseparable best friends in their younger days? It's not that Robert had nobody else. All sorts of people would've jumped at the chance. If Robert had asked someone like Mace Tyrell, he'd have taken the job without a second thought. But Robert trusted nobody more than he trusted Ned, and even Robert wasn't so dumb as to see that things weren't going the way they should, and he clearly felt over-surrounded by Lannisters and didn't trust anyone. Naturally you fix that by finding the guy you trust the most.
- The thing is that it's seen as true that Robert went to get Ned because "he was his most trusted friend", yet Robert is still known to be a man that doesn't make very good decisions to begin with. He didn't name him Hand for any altruistic of friendship-related reasons, but mostly as an excuse for him not to have to worry about governing and continue being lazy and irresponsible. Robert didn't trust his own brothers just because he didn't like them, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't have been good Hands. Even without Ned and the other Baratheon brothers, Robert still had allies in the Vale, and those guys were very faithful to the late Jon Arryn, even as far as having to deal with the delusional Lysa Tully in his memory. He had options, and that's without even looking into the Stormlands and the Riverlands. He named Ned because he was a lazy fat man and nothing more.
- I see Robert as a deconstruction on the idea of charismatic leadership. If Robert can't win over someone with a smile, a glass of beer and the like, he won't bother with them, hence his neglect of Stannis and his flattery of Renly. As The Hero, he saw Ned as his sidekick, someone who'd never talk back or argue against him, someone without baggage (and Ned has plenty of baggage) and hassle. That equation worked when they had to fight the Evil Overlord Aerys but it doesn't work for actual administration.
Pycelle's Usefulness to the Lannisters
- Was Pycelle ever actually a person worthy of trust to the Lannisters? I mean, they've shown him nothing but derision at every turn. It's true that Pycelle is a dying fan of Tywin, but was he ever a piece under their approval? He did let Jon Arryn die because he concluded that the Hand knew about the incest between Cersei and Jaime, but it's never shown that the Lannisters actually sanctioned or ordered this to him, rather, he did it by his own accord. As such, would have the Lannisters ordered him to do so? Did they ever realize that he had a part in Jon Arryn's death for their sake? (other than Tyrion, of course, since Pycelle tells him himself under duress) Was he ever anything other than a wannabe and simpering peon to them?
- Other than a few trusted individuals, do Tywin or Cersei see anyone as anything other than a wannabe and simpering peon? Having the loyalty of the crown's Grand Maester is probably worth something, even if the person himself is doddering and semi-competent, and besides, don't forget it was Pycelle who convinced Aerys to open the gates of King's Landing so Tywin could sack it. That probably counts for something,
- Pycelle seems to be a pretty good political player actually. He managed to reassert himself twice after setbacks, he almost certainly reported on everything that happened at court to the Lannisters and he was instrumental to Lannister aims in Robert's Rebellion because he was the one who convinced Aerys to open the gates of King's Landing.
Did Cersei Abandon Myrcella?
- After Tyrion ships Myrcella to Dorne, of course Cersei is fuming with Tyrion for shipping her daughter away. After this, Cersei basically cuts off all communication with Myrcella for some reason; otherwise she is completely unimpeded to do so being Queen, no one would object to a mother establishing a correspondence with her daughter, and it's not like Cersei doesn't know where she is. Even when she rules after Tywin's death, Cersei doesn't even look for Myrcella and rather concocts a messed up plan to kill Trystane Martell that is botched almost immediately. Why the hell did Cersei not talk with Myrcella at all if she was so damn worried about her? Even before Tywin and Joffrey died, she could have gone to Dorne herself to make sure she was OK and no one would have batted an eye. Is she so damn unfamiliar with her capacities and her own will that she assumed that Myrcella was completely out of her reach? Who the hell did she think would keep a child away from her mother, and not only that, The Queen Herself?
- Does it say anywhere that she isn't sending her daughter letters? If it does, it might be for fear that they will be read before they reach Myrcella, in which case she can't say anything extremely personal nor can she expect her daughter to. Similarly, Myrcella is quite young, so what she would tell her mother and how important it would be is up for debate. As to why she had to send her away, once Tyrion made the engagement, and thus the alliance, Cersei ending it would have been taken as an insult and could have severed relations with Dorne, an ally the Lannisters greatly needed at that moment. Why she doesn't go there is the same reason she does everything else in the series - she wants power, and for power, she must remain in King's Landing. I think she is also angry about any arranged marriage for Myrcella at all; she comments that her daughter is being shipped off just as she was shipped off to Robert, so part of it is probably anger at the political role of women in powerful families in Westoros in general.
Varys' Pardon and the Lannisters' tolerance
- Why was Varys pardoned by Robert Baratheon? Who vouched for him? Considering he advised Aerys against opening the city gates to the Lannisters, why aren't they more openly hostile and cautious towards him?
- You know I wondered about this myself. I mean Varys, according to Pycelle (a lifelong liar), was a foreign spymaster, in other words a nice scapegoat in hand. I guess the main thing is that Varys hid himself from the Lannisters during the sack (which makes sense given what he supposedly did with little Aegon) and when Robert came he pled to him. Robert from what we see and hear is not a cruel man. He likes the idea of turning enemies into friends. So Varys must have given his usual "For the Realm" talk and Robert would have fallen for it. Also Jon Arryn would have been keen that Robert Baratheon not be seen as "another Aerys" who keeps executing people so that would have factored in as well (especially since the Lannisters murder of Rhaegar's children was heard across the realm and tarnished the entire Rebellion). As for why they kept him on the Small Council, that I don't know but considering how honor-bound Jon Arryn is, its likely they looked down on the spymaster office and figured its a job good for the eunuch and left it at that, it might be they didn't think a spymaster office was all that important. Even Ned Stark was initially prejudiced against Varys for the same reason, in A Game of Thrones.
- Nobody really likes the guy, but they need him. It's not unusual after a civil war for the new government to rely on figures from the old one to keep things running. However Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei all make clear at different times that they don't really trust him.
- See his possible inspiration, Talleyrand, who betrayed several regimes in France but always seemed to find work with the next one.
The Messenger at Winterfell
- While it is known that Lysa sent her warning message to Catelyn at Winterfell, the message itself was placed in Maester Luwin's quarters. Of the known characters in the King's party (if possible), who could have sneaked the message to Luwin's quarters unnoticed? Did Lysa or Littlefinger have any creatures of theirs within the known characters at that moment? For that matter, could have Luwin (a Tully creature) made up that someone sneaked into his quarters, considering that he used to be a Maester at Riverrun when Robb was born?
- Everything seen about Luwin has always suggested that he's been loyal to the lord he's assigned to, nothing more and there doesn't seem to be much suggesting that he has special loyalties to the Tully's (or that he would have reason to lie about the origin of the message). In any case the details of the message, being hidden in a false bottom of a box hinted at by a lens sounds like something Littlefinger would mastermind and have Lysa carry out. As for exactly who, there were three hundred people in Robert's party. Any one of them could have been used.
Proof of Incest
- In A Co K, Stannis Baratheon sends out ravens to most major locations in Westeros, claiming that Joffrey was a bastard out of the union of Cersei and Jaime. This is quickly dismissed by the majority of Westeros due lack of proof and the small council providing counter rumors. Why didn't Stannis, who had actively discovered the incest via research, ever include any of this proof? It wouldn't have been such a drastic measure, he just needed to include a line in the message distributed by the ravens along the lines of "Proof of Joffrey's illegitimacy can be observed in his hair color, which is blonde, defying the rule of hair that has governed the Baratheon line since their introduction to history." Was there a character limit of the ravens or something?
- It's not really dismissed so much as there are powerful factions that have a lot to lose if Joffrey (and by extension Tommen and Myrcella) doesn't have Baratheon blood so they make it clear they'll keep saying it's nothing more than a lie intended to benefit Stannis, and people following them and making alliances with them will either believe or pretend to believe. If we assume that Renly knew, even he was publicly casting doubt on it so that the war would officially be two uncles trying to overthrow Robert's son, since Renly would be on very weak ground if he admitted that Stannis would legally be the heir. Even going by what we can find of Jon Arryn and Stannis' original plans, which would have had them going to Robert with everything, they were assuming there was going to be war over this.
- Remember this is a feudal society. Stannis Baratheon putting out this claim on his own signature, own handwriting and seal and sending it across the realm is Serious Business. It basically means that Stannis, one of the most powerful men of Westeros, the Lord of Dragonstone, is making an accusation that if proven wrong would lead to his death, disgrace and worse. High Lords and others will take that seriously, far more than the counter-plan put forth by the small council (aka tavern rumors). Remember in the first book that Catelyn Stark burns Lysa's letter as soon as she reads it. She says that Lysa wouldn't make that accusation (Cersei killing Jon Arryn) if she wasn't serious because it would mean instant-treason execution, if she was discovered. Now Lysa was lying and Stannis is telling the truth but fundamentally the medium he takes and the manner in which he communicates is legitimate. Perhaps Stannis ought to have the evidence of hair colour in that message, but at that time, he's in a military situation and not a quasi-legal situation. Stannis has to win over alliances and that message is the best way. Also Stannis has a reputation for integrity as does Ned, so it stands for something. And by the Fifth Book, its an Open Secret anyway.
A less romantic First Blackfyre Rebellion
- One of the most important aspects of the Dunk and Egg novellas and in TWOIAF is the circumstances on which Daenerys (the first) was denied to Daemon Blackfyre. Daemon refused keeps and lands from Daeron II not only because of his pretensions as a possible future king, but here's what I've been wondering: is it possible that first, Daemon actually wanted a betrothal to Daenerys actually to legitimize his political claim and position, and that's why it's argued that Daenerys did not reciprocate his feelings back (because there weren't any in the first place)?; second, was this one of the conditions that Daemon wanted to be considered Daeron's "brother"?; and third, was Daeron against the traditional Targaryen betrothal between brother and sister, this being one of the reasons he denied Daenerys from Daemon? (this last, considering that his own and his sister's betrothal to the Martells was orchestrated by the overzealous Baelor I)
- Well, we honestly don't know anything about Daemon himself. This is Second-Hand Storytelling and it's intentionally kept ambiguous in the same manner as Rhaegar and Lyanna, Aemon and Naerys, Shiera Seastar and her half-brother suitors — there is a constant refrain of using romance as an excuse. That being said, my sense of Daemon I Blackfyre's character is that he's not the politically savvy guy. I mean if he had wanted or planned to take the crown all along, he should have usurped Daeron II upon Aegon IV's death. I mean that was his best chance and I think he could have succeeded at that point by roiling anti-Dornish bigotry and Daeron II hadn't yet time to create a base of support for himself. As for Daemon Blackfyre and Daenerys of Dorne, I think there might have been a real romance (because Doran Martell says "the whole realm could see it") between them. It could very well be that Daeron II was opposed to traditional incest because of how his mother Naerys was forced into an abusive marriage to her brother. But I also think he was someone who didn't really care too much about other people's feelings. I mean Fireball was denied a promotion guaranteed by his Dad and Daeron II refused to honour it, so I think he was a little insensitive and he basically didn't see why Daemon Blackfyre and Daenerys I was such a big deal.
- That's the thing, though. Losing the Daenerys betrothal did undermine Daemon's position regardless of any possible love between them because it poised him as "not worthy" of her, and Daemon did spend several years planning the rebellion, so he wasn't as removed politically if that were the case. Daeron wasn't sentimentally removed from his bastard brothers and he offered them lands and keeps; he also made a point of wanting both Bittersteel and Daemon to be part of the court and have a brotherly relationship with them, but they spat on his efforts and rose in rebellion. Now that I think about it, Daeron's position on incest is kinda iffy too, as he did allow for Shiera and Bloodraven to have a relationship.
- I don't think losing the Daenerys betrothal undermined Daemon's position, per se. If anything Daenerys marrying the Dornish Prince is perfect Blackfryre propaganda, they are saying "We are rescuing our fair maiden from those swarthy two-timing Dornish". Remember that it was Aegon IV who engaged and married Daeron II to the Tyroshi family, and the WOIAF book says that Daemon apparently believed he could revive polygamy and claim Daenerys as Wife #2...if he really believed that, well Aegon IV couldn't make himself into an official polygamist no matter how much he wanted to. I think if Daemon Blackfyre married Daenerys however, more people would have gone over to the Blackfyre because he would be seen as more legitimate than Daeron II (who has a Dornish wife and an eldest child with black hair) and I think Daeron II very deliberately shut that marriage down because he was afraid of what it would signify. Besides, he had to honour the agreement that Baelor I had brokered right.
- As for Shiera and Bloodraven, they are a pair of weirdos so its unlikely that Daeron II could marry them to anyone if he wanted to, and in any case it isn't in Daeron II's interest to marry his newly legitimized bastard stepfamily into nobility since it dilutes the glamour of royal blood. I mean Daemon Blackfyre was wed to a Tyroshi family, which kind of kept him off the Westeros marriage market. We know that Daeron II betrothed his own eldest children to other families - Maekar married into the Dornish Dayne family and Baelor Breakspear married the Dondarrions, so I don't think he was on-board with incest, even if he wasn't as explicit about it as his grandon Aegon V. I like Daeron II but I do think there's grounds to see him as a little insensitive, I mean Fireball was someone who legitimately had a Passed-Over Promotion. I think he was kind to both Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel on the whole. For me, I think Daemon Blackfyre took too much time before finally making his play for the Crown. He came close to winning, very close but by that time Daeron II had grown stronger, he had sons who were warriors just as good as him, and Brynden Rivers became Bloodraven with nearly five hundred eyes at the Redgrass Field.
Essos and the Targaryen Conquest
- How did the Essosi react to the news that the last Valyrian dragonlord and his sisters conquered an enormous swath of the world? It's known that Aegon had entertained the idea of a conflict that involved Volantis before he decided to conquer Westeros and that he had toured the free cities with his dragon; now, the Essosi were well aware of what the dragonlords of Valyria did to their continent, so are there any records of what was happening in Essos at the time of the conquest? I find it hard to believe that the shift was so swift that it didn't alter trade routes at the very least; as it's shown, things that happen in Westeros affect Essos, especially the Free Cities. Is it weird that this is not that well recorded?
- I didn't think it was that great a deal for the peoples of Essos. Remember this was the "Century of Blood" when most of the Free Cities were trying to stave off Volantis' pretentions of being the successor of Valyria, this was also the time when Braavos had yet to develop into an economic powerhouse (remember there was a point when the Rogare Bank was richer than them). The other and most important reason is that the Essosi elite see Westeros as a backwater, an undeveloped culture and barbarian land, so to them Aegon conquering Westeros by dragons would have been a bit like Daemon Targaryen conquering the Stepstones, unremarkable and without any symbolic meaning. Daenerys conquering Slaver's Bay and abolishing slavery is what truly upsets them. That is challenging their livelihood, their beliefs and the regional Balance of Power. As for "trade routes", rememeber before Aegon the Conqueror there was no unified Westeros, only two or three major cities (Lannisport, Oldtown), and two of them are on the West Coast. Aegon I came and built King's Landing, and his successors built roads and unified and developed trade. So that's how it goes.
- But there's the question of why there was no reaction. No one had any guarantee that Aegon would have stopped at Westeros and not turn his sights on Essos. How come no one was jumping to their feet and arming themselves to the teeth in Essos if this guy just conquered the freakin' continent next door?
- That is very strange, I will admit. The important thing is that in WOIAF its mentioned that Aegon assisted the other Free Cities in their conflict against Volantis. So I think Aegon basically got the go-ahead to take Westeros in exchange for that assistance. In any case, the Targaryen conquest is an issue only as long as the dragons existed. Once those dragons died, the Targaryens became just like every other elite. Essos is too large and diverse, and too advanced to be subdued by dragons alone. So probably they felt secure. The main reason I think they weren't worried is that there was no governing body. The Valyrian Freehold was gone, you had Free Cities and their domains. The one unifying authority there was, Volantis, was put in check with help of Aegon. So there was no single Free City to get offended by Aegon and his dragons. Likewise, since the Free Cities were fighting each other, if there was any talk that maybe we should all unite to fight Aegon I, the other Free Cities would rat out to Aegon I for a better deal. Braavos especially is entirely for keeping the status quo of Essosi Free Cities, because it was never part of Valyria, it has different values regarding slavery. So the fact is the Free Cities were too divided, opposed to each other, to bother Aegon I, and in fact that's probably why The Conqueror subdued Volantis.
- The Westerosi were pretty divided themselves until Aegon set that straight, so if he had wanted to do the same at Essos, he would have. That's one of the interesting things about The Conqueror; we don't know that much about his inner workings. I get the feeling that the short and most accurate answer to my question is: Who the hell knows? Ned Stark was right... "Damn Aegon for his conceit!"
- Actually Ned was referring to the Iron Throne, the idea behind it (in poetry it's called the "conceit") is a Literal Metaphor for power not being easy to sit on, an inverted Sword of Damocles. I don't think the Conqueror was especially proud otherwise. Just a determined visionary, which since these are Targaryen and Valyrians, must imply some kind of prophetic destiny. The Targaryens left Valyria before the Doom because one of them predicted it in a vision. So it might be that young Aegon thought he should Take Over the World, went to Essos but lost interest in it, and so decided to settle for Westeros. Reasons can include 1) Easier than Essos, 2) Small Pond for a Big Fish to Lord Over, 3) Because Destiny Says So, 4) He wanted to Start My Own, build his own empire rather than pine for Glory Days. Any reason or all of them could apply The other answer is that since he was raised in Dragonstone and the lands that would become the Crownlands, he felt Westeros and not Essos was his home, and maybe he disagreed with Valyria's slave traditions since Rhaenys was quite progressive and he clearly didn't like Harren the Black. It is the duty of Dany, his Distaff Counterpart to be The Conqueror of Essos, and liberate the land and bring in a new world that surpasses Valyria, aka The Renaissance for Essos (the period where moderns decide that they are good, if not better, than the ancients).
The Ironborn invasion of the Riverlands before the Conquest
- Harren the Black's grandfather started the invasion of the Riverlands, taking them from the Storm King. It's said that he, his son, and later Harren himself spent most of their lives expanding their dominion and settling in the Riverlands, culminating with the construction of Harrenhal and later, its destruction at the hands of Aegon the Conqueror. Seeing that the Hoares spent a considerable time and effort settling in the Riverlands, and being Kings of the Iron Islands as well, why weren't other Ironborn houses settling in the Riverlands?
Now, there are other hints that the Ironborn did root some customs in the Riverlanders, like the "viking" funerals of the Tullys, so why weren't there Ironborn settlements on the Riverlands even when they belonged to them? It's not like the Hoares did the invasion by themselves! Didn't they have any vassal houses?
I know that the Ironborn weren't keen to the Hoares' "tainted" Andal influence, but as it's shown in ASOIAF, the Ironborn aren't politically unanimous. Is it a case of history being glossed over? Something lost in translation due to the Ironborn's penchant for illiteracy?
- I think it's a combination of the fact that the Ironborn look down on knowledge and the Maestery, and scorn infrastructure. Harrenhal is proof of what the Ironborn think of urban planning, so they might have lost a little knowledge and tradition over the years. In any case, so far the story has focused mainly on the Tullys, Blackwoods, Brackens and Freys within the Riverlands, but the other parts of the action take place in Inns, towns (like Stoney Sept) and villages within the Riverlands. It might be that some of these areas were built by the Ironborn. There are also lesser or not very well known houses like the Pipers (one of whom IIRC married into an Ironborn family), Vances we don't know much about. Also it might be that the new houses and others raised by the Iron Islands were destroyed or rooted out during Aegon's Conquest.
Why did Ned bring Ice with him to King's Landing?
- It's a bit of dramatic irony that Ned ends up beheaded by his own sword, and later it's a source of some angst for Sansa and a symbol of Tywin's victory that Ice is melted down to be reforged into Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, but really, why did Ned bring the sword with him at all? Why not leave the thing in Winterfell? There's no real indication he used it in personal combat anymore, if he ever did, as the general implication was that the sword was too over-sized for him, being that Ned wasn't a particularly large man. He only used it as an execution weapon, and he wasn't going to be performing any executions as Hand of the King. It doesn't make sense why he wouldn't leave it in his household for Robb to use for the headchopping he'd have to do as the Stark in Winterfell.
- Among the high lords, Valyrian Steel swords are held onto tighter than their own daughters. More likely that Ned brought the sword not intending to use it, but more as a symbol of House Stark. "Look, there's the Hand of the King, Eddard Stark and his shiny Valyrian Steel sword!" While Ned would use another sword in actual combat, Ice would still have use for ceremonial purposes (such as knighthoods, should Robert find himself "too busy" for such things) Basically, it's a symbol of his house and his honor, so he would likely want such a thing on his person, or at least in his home.
- I understand the value of Valyrian Steel swords, which is part of why I feel it would have been more important to leave it behind. So long as Ned's acting as Hand of the King, Robb is the defacto Lord of Winterfell, even if Ned still has that title. Given the symbolic purposes of the blade, it seems to me that it would be better to leave it with Robb to further legitimize his authority in the North while Ned's away.
- Ned hated executioners he even said he would have rode out himself (something Tywin predicted hence setting a trap at the Mummers Ford I believe it was where Beric was ambushed) if his leg was not hurt. So he probably brought it in case he needed to carry out the Kings Justice but I doubt Ned would do any knighting. He is not a Knight himself nor a follower of the Faith of the Seven, even if he is a Lord I'm not sure he could knight people since only a Knight can make another Knight (Robert was a knight before Lord and King)
Celibacy in Night's Watch
- While part of the wovs sworn by the Night's Watch make sense, such as not holding land and wearing crowns, why aren't Night's Watch members allowed to have a family? If a black brother had a family (say, settled on The Gift), he'd have more of a motivation to defend the realm. There is no conflict of loyalty, as the family is part of the realm (and most likely among the first to be attacked by anything coming from beyond the wall). Having a family on The Gift would also allow for more land being farmed, which would directly benefit the Night's Watch (though it may be that all land in that area is being used for the benefit of the NW).
- As Maester Aemon said, love is the death of duty. Whilst having a family on the Gift would give a man motivation to man his post, what if the Wall were to be breached by raiders? Especially if it was intended to lure out the Night's Watch and draw men away from defending the Wall, it could encourage men of the Night's Watch to abandon their posts to protect their families.
- A major part of the Night's Watch's usefulness for noble families is that it keeps their cadets, bastards and disgraced members from having a political influence and a family of their own. Both of these things could otherwise cause instability in the feuds or the reign at large.
Even volunteers for the Night's Watch and Kingsguard are in for life?
- It makes sense that common criminals and disgraced nobles are in the Night's Watch for life given that regular society wants nothing to do with them. But why does the same rule apply to younger sons of the nobility who voluntarily join because they cannot expect to inherit anything from their fathers? This means that if the older brother(s) of such a recruit are killed in battle, accidents, by disease or otherwise prevented from inheriting, then his house might go extinct even though there is a potential heir alive in the Night's Watch. Something similar goes for the Kingsguard: the members are supposed to be in for life and forswear all other titles and rights to inherit. But why would anyone want them to remain in the position until they are old and probably too infirm to perform their duties. It would make more sense if the service was for a limited period of time, maybe 10-15 years at the most, and at the end of their service the former kingsguards are granted lands and a title of their own.
- A couple things. Generally speaking, you won't likely have second sons volunteer for the wall entirely of their own volition. It's third and fourth sons that are likely to be sent packing that way; noble houses want heirs and spares, any more than that breeds rivalry, infighting, and leaves you with too many mouths to feed. A second son who genuinely wants to volunteer in a situation that would leave his house up a creek if his older brother died would be browbeaten into reconsidering, if not explicitly forbidden from doing so. Also worth pointing out that this isn't likely to be a common problem as outside of the North, no one wants to join the watch so you won't have this come up very often. Southern families with multiple sons will either encourage them to be maesters, have them join the faith, maybe send them across the narrow sea, marry them off to build ties with other families, or just be more likely to have enough wealth to support more family members. Exceptions exist, obviously; Sam being a first son forced out to make way for a second. As for why the Watch, and the Kingsguard for that matter, are for life, the idea is ultimately that their service matters more than their houses. Those organizations are more important than any one noble house, and if a house is going to go extinct due to the bad luck of their last surviving member being a sworn brother of either the Night's Watch or the Kingsguard, tough shit. You don't want the members of these organizations thinking about life after or outside of them, and having those thoughts and plans for what to do after coloring their judgment or their loyalties. They are there for life and therefore the priority in their decision making should be 'what is best for the Night's Watch/Realm/King', not "What's going to help my family that I'll be able to go back to in fifteen years?'
Why didn't Griff know of Tyrion's plan?
- When Tyrion is playing Cyvasse with Young Griff he offers an alternate plan to meeting Daenerys in Meereen; capitalize on the ongoing Westerosi power vacuum to land and force her to join them and as they play and talk, Haldon is observing the game. So why when Young Griff proposes crossing to the Captains of the Golden Company does Haldon not mention to Griff that the plan was Tyrion's?
- I wondered about that myself. I assumed that Haldon agreed that Tyrion's plan made sense and the Halfmaester is actually proceeding for Aegon's sake rather than the Golden Company's in quiet agreement. After all, Haldon is the person that educated Aegon and he might be closer to the young prince than the rest of the Company. There's also the possibility that Haldon had thought of something on the lines of what Tyrion said to Aegon, but refrained from speaking his thoughts because maybe he thought himself not in the position to do so. It's fair to mention that there was already a faction of the Golden Company who grew tired of waiting for Daenerys anyway, so maybe Tyrion just voiced what everyone there was thinking already.
The House with the Red Door, and the stuff readers are not asking about it
- As readers, we have become aware that there is a theory concerning the House with the Red Door not being in Braavos as Daenerys reminisces, because of all that shebang about lemon trees not being able to grow in a cold city like Braavos. While there has been far, wide and excessive speculation regarding where this house is actually located, I've seen little speculation as to what is the importance of Dany's supposedly erroneous memories, if the theory turns out to be true. So here I ask: if the house is located in X location that is not Braavos, what actually transpired to deny Dany of its actual location? Why was Daenerys lied to regarding the location if that is the case?
- I think the house is in Braavos certainly. That Lemon trees don't grow there does not preclude the possibility that prominent exile lord with some means won't be able to acquire a Lemon Tree seed to plant in the garden. We know that Willem Darry was an overseer of Dany in this time, that Oberyn signed a marriage pact with him with the Sealord of Braavos in attendance.
- OP here; what I mean with the question is why does no one elaborate more than just the location of the house, if the theory is supposedly that important? Personally, I think it's in Braavos too; but if there are people out there who believe that the house is elsewhere, they don't go past where the house is, and not the implications of it being elsewhere. For instance, if the house were in Oldtown or in southern Essos, who are the parties of interest and why they did such and such. What irks me about it is that it's very often repeated and it might be important◊ according to Word of God, but people are actually just scratching the surface of it.
- I think the house is in Braavos certainly. That Lemon trees don't grow there does not preclude the possibility that prominent exile lord with some means won't be able to acquire a Lemon Tree seed to plant in the garden. We know that Willem Darry was an overseer of Dany in this time, that Oberyn signed a marriage pact with him with the Sealord of Braavos in attendance.
- This is admittedly not an important plot point, but rather stems from mere curiosity. Has there been any mentions of extra-atmospheric phenomena like Aurora Borealis from the northernmost-dwelling peoples of Planetos? For all the talk of long winters and snowy summers, you'd think that something that spectacular would show up in conversation even in a mythological degree like it does in cultures from the Arctic Circle.
- The seasons and its effects are magical as per Word of God. So there's no real scientific basis to presume a 1:1 transfer of phenomenon from our world to theirs. Of course even if there was Aurora Borealis there is no reason to show up in conversations because winters, summers and springs last for years and at the start you had a very long summer of more than a decade.
- Typically names that have an ae or rys in it tend to be of Valyrian origin. Varys is described as bald, but Aegon the Unlikely shaved his hair to go incognito as a young boy. Does Varys keep a bald head to disguise silver-gold hair?
- The highly paranoid Mad King hired Varys to be his master of whispers when Aerys was infamous for not trusting anyone. Not even his queen or heir. Is Varys a bastard son of Aerys sent off for training?
- Varys is rather devoted to the real, thus Iron Throne. That can be explained if he has Targaryen ancestry or even Blackfyre ancestry.
- There is no mention of the color of Varys' eyes but lets assume his eyes are dark. Purple Valyrian eyes can range from pale lilac to dark indigo. Indigo eyes in a tanned face with no pale hair would not stand out too much. Varys also dresses rather richly and uses perfume in what could be an attempt to detract from his face.
- Unless I'm mistaken, part of being a Eunich involves natural hair loss (top, facial, and otherwise).
"You might have warned me that the Titan’s Bastard had escaped"
- After Ser Barristan killed Mero when she jumped Dany outside the walls of Meereen, she demanded to know why Ser Jorah had not told her of Mero's escape and he said he did not wish to frighten her. But he did tell her of his escape, the same night her host attacked the combined Yunkish and sell-sword force outside the city - when he came to Dany's tent to report on the battle's victory he said straight out "Mero fled, once he realized the Stormcrows had turned. I have men hunting him. He shouldn’t escape us long." It might be Dany had forgotten after her near brush with death, but Jorah not pointing out he told her before doesn't make much sense.
- When the Yunkish alliance is besieging Meereen, Tyrion opines that Daenerys Targaryen is inexperienced in siegecraft and that had she poisoned all the nearby wells, the besiegers would succumb to disease before they could mount a threat. But when Dany marched on Meereen herself she had found all the wells poisoned by the Meereenese defenders, how could they become drinkable again in so short a time?
No slave revolt ?
- We are shown that Slaver's Bay society is based on slavery to an extreme degree ; historically, the only civilization that dependent on slavery was Sparta and to keep their ridiculous 20 slaves to 1 free man they had to become an overly militarized society in a constant state of warfare to keep their citizen-army occuopied. But in Slaver's Bay even the military is made of slaves and the nobles only know mock wars. How come the slaves don't kill them all ? One could argue that the Unsullied are just that brainwashed but then what about Yunkai and Meeren ? Especially after Danaerys' rampage through the Bay proving that the Masters couldbe defeated, and them besieging her, Why doesn't the Yunkai army or city-slaves riot ? It doesn't even need to be coordinated, one bed slave killing her master or one soldier slave killing his would be all that is necessary to spark it.
Where did Thoros get those men?
- Ned sends Lord Beric Dondarrion, Lord Lothar Mallery, Ser Gladden Wylde and Thoros of Myr after Gregor Clegane. He orders each of them to assembly 20 men to go with them. The first three are of powerful noble families who would have men at arms to gather but where was Thoros suppose to get 20 men on short notice? So far as we know he for years was the only red priest in westeros and he had no large congregation of followers.
Did Joffrey know why it was a good idea to send Ned to the wall?
- Cersei wanted to send Ned to the wall in hopes of avoiding a Northern rebellion, which was a sensible move. Joffrey decided to take the Off with His Head! approach, and I'm wondering what Joffrey knew. Did he know why it would be a good idea to send Ned to the wall, or did she just tell him - who she later describes as willful, and she knows has some rather cruel tendencies - to send him to the wall?
- Either he understood sending Ned to the wall would increase the chance of the war being solved peacefully, but decided to kill him on a whim.Did not understand at all and all his advisors underestimated how dumb he was and didn't care to explain to him why it was a good idea. There's also a third (and likely) explanation: Littlefinger convinced him to kill Ned (my favorite explanation).
Is Heraldry regulated in Westeros?
- In Medieval Europe heraldry was vigorously regulated in most kingdoms and arms had protection similar to modern registered trademarks. This was to ensure that nobody stole a coat of arms that wasn't theirs and that no confusion would arise if two people had identical arms. Many nations in Europe still have heraldry agencies to regulate who is entitled to arms. With hundreds of Houses and thousands of armigerious individuals it would make sense for the Westerosi crown to officially regulate heraldry. Does anyone know if it is?