Why are subversions listed separately from examples?: Throwing Your Sword Always Works

Just curious, since I'm not seeing why this trope should have this special treatment, especially since all it does is make a terrible mess of the example list.

1. If a show was listed in the Examples list first, tropers place any subversions from the show there since they see that their show has been listed already and the Subversions list is way below the page, making it easily missed by tropers.
2. If a show was listed in the Subversion list first, people place any subsequent straight examples there since they see that their show has been listed already, and since the Examples list is way above the page, they probably didn't notice that they're in a separate Subversions list since they likely used Ctrl-F to find their show.
3. Shows that play around with this trope tend to go everywhere. If a sword was thrown as a distraction, does it go under the straight list or the subverted list? If it's a serious attack, but the hero managed to dodge it, which list does it go? I've seen those types of examples in both lists.

Can't we just merge both lists into one Examples list? The entire thing seems needlessly complicated.

edited 6th Nov '10 7:23:56 AM by Servbot

Was this sort of split a short-lived TV Tropes fad at some point, one which later fell out of favor?

Seems to me I've run across this type of split before, but it made a little more sense for those particular tropes.

Jet-a-Reeno!

Yeah, I don't think splitting subversions from straight examples is a good idea.

I disagree, it makes a certain amount of sense to keep the straight examples in one section and then show ways that it can be subverted, rather than have it all in one big block.

Good in theory. In practice, what comes out is a big mess of a page with lots of misplaced examples like what we currently have here, requiring constant maintenance since that's not how the other pages work.

I don't know about you, but I prefer to keep things simple, especially since tropers have a tendency to interpret Subversion lists as "This trope as done by my favorite show"

edited 6th Nov '10 10:29:58 AM by Servbot

I have a private theory that many people read "subversion" as "sub-version", ie In This Particular Way.

Anyway, yeah, merge. (I suppose the split was done before the Playing With namespace was created?)

edited 6th Nov '10 12:16:40 PM by Antheia

Merge. There's no reason for this trope in particular to get this treatment.

So, uhh... are there any more objections? If there aren't, I'll merge both lists within five days so that this bit of wiki cleaning could be over and done with. <<;

It's probably because the trope is called "Throwing your sword always works". So people see it not working as being distinct.

I vote merge, I agree with the topic creator's reasoning.

Adding Throw The Sword as a redirect for simplicity and ease of typing.

edited 10th Nov '10 4:00:26 PM by berr

Around two days until I perform the merge.

Merging of examples will be executed later. If there are any objections, say them now.

I object!  ^*

The sword throwing thing is older than the subversion, It is a moment even when "justified" by magic or super strength. The subversion is more about Reality Ensues or comedy.

Hm? Why is that a reason to keep them separate?

That's how the subversions of several tropes work. In fact, the very nature of subversions means that straight examples have to be older because, in order for a subversion to work, the straight use of the trope needs to have established itself first so that it would be what the audience would expect, otherwise it's just an Aversion or an Unbuilt Trope.

Throwing Your Sword Always Works isn't any more special than things like Throwing Your Shield Always Works, Wolves Always Howl at the Moon, and The Blade Always Lands Pointy End In. It's just an exotic attack running on Rule of Cool that's uncommonly used and whose examples list is currently a jumbled mess, partly because of honest mistakes since the trope doesn't present itself as something that would require a soft-split in the examples list, and partly because several tropers see a subversion list as this trope, but more special since it's done by my favorite show.

edited 12th Nov '10 3:52:53 PM by Servbot

I never said it was a good objection, just enough for a soft split since they are treated differently in story.

The examples don't look like a jumbled mess to me and if there are bad examples delete them.

I would prefer not to have to keep cleaning up after people. Again, as other similar tropes doesn't require such a soft split, why should this?

And it's not a case of bad examples showing up (People throw swords. It's a rather hard concept to make mistakes in). It's a case of people putting both straight and subverted examples in both lists and having difficulty identifying whether a played with example would go in the Subverted example or not, which is not a problem normally since they could just use the generic "Played With" term, but becomes one when you tell people that they should separate straight and subverted lists. Observe, a quick pull:

THROWN SWORD WAS A DISTRACTION

Straight list

• Saitou throws his broken sword at Kenshin knowing it is a bad move and at best a distraction. His opponent sees this and chooses to take the small cut rather than break his stance. This is still enough for Saitou's unexpected followup to work.

Subverted list

• Subverted in Gundam: 08th MS Team. Norris throws his Gouf's sword. However, the intent was not to hit Shiro but to distract him, giving Norris time to shoot Shiro with his heat-wire and disable his Gundam.

POMMEL HITS

Straight list

• One fencing manual advises to start a fight by unscrewing your sword's pommel and throwing it at the enemy.

Subverted list

• The Genesis Super Mario World pirate game (which plays more like the NES Rescue Rangers games than any Mario game) features enemy rats who not only throw swords, but throw them hilt-first thanks to the sword sprite being flipped.
  • When you think about it, getting hit by a big chunk of metal such as a hilt might not work wonders with your health either

WORKED, BUT LAMPSHADED

Straight list

• Will Turner does this twice in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. Since he seems able to do it so reliably, one wonders why he didn't just aim it a bit higher and cut the noose, instead of letting him use the blade like a miniature platform.
  • On the more realistic side, Jack reacts with appropriate surprise that it worked (and, probably, that the sword landed literally an inch from his face), and then points out that Will has left himself unarmed. But they're in a room full of swords at the time, so it's only a temporary setback.

Subverted list

• He did, however, manage to stick a sword in a wall by throwing it in Night Watch, but it's explicitly a result of pure dumb luck.

THROWN SWORD COULD WORK AS AN ATTACK, BUT MISSES OR IS DODGED

Straight list

• At the height of the war between Konan and Kutou in Fushigi Yuugi, Tasuki hurls a sword at Nakago, but misses. He does manage to kill Soi, though, and this pretty much pissed Nakago off too.

Subverted list

• In Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, the miniboss Darknut throws his sword (or mace) at Link after losing his armor, then subverts it by drawing a rapier that is more fitting the more agile fighting style he adapts afterwards. It's also subverted by the throw not being a particularly effective attack, as Link can easily jump out of the way or even just block it with his shield.
  • Although if you allow it to make contact (or just fumble your evasion), it still fucking hurts.
• Spartacus tries this during gladiator training in Spartacus: Blood and Sand. Not only does his opponent easily deflect it, the stray weapon kills a fellow gladiator recruit by slicing open his throat. Spartacus inmediatly gets chewed out by the trainer for this stupidity.
  • It does work pretty much every other time it's employed, though. First episode Spartacus uses it to great effect during pitched battle, last episode has the aformentioned trainer using it, again during a pitched battle. It happened one other time during a fantasy/plan laid out by Spartacus, though he was immediately reminded why it wouldn't work. The trainer noted that should one "throw your sword in the arena, you are dead again!", pointing out that it doesn't work in a one on one fight against an enemy focused on you and skilled enough to block it.

edited 12th Nov '10 5:35:50 PM by Servbot

Why would combining the Subversion/Exceptions whatever were calling the things help?

The some examples you list sound like they belong on either the We Need a Distraction or Improbable Use of a Weapon page. What is it about the separated format that would make it harder to fix said examples?

The distraction examples aren't We Need a Distraction. They are cases "Playing With" Throwing Your Sword Always Works where the sword is used as a feint.

Improbable Use of a Weapon is the Super-Trope of Throwing Your Sword. The ones above are examples of Throwing Your Sword Always Works. They use the sword by throwing it, they just have a twist to it.

These cases are, however, problematic in listing since they are "Playing With" examples. Some tropers may be interpret them as straight examples (it's used as an attack that works in the setting!) or subverted (it's used as an attack but not in the way we expected it!).

Thus, we have a conundrum of listing examples which would be gotten rid of with a simple merging and more correctly stating whether it's a variation, or it's played with, or it's lampshaded, or it's used with a bit more realism. Currently, the format promotes Not A Subversion since tropers are forced to declare a played-with trope as only straight or subverted/exception, and that is a mind-set I'd prefer to stop as much as possible.

edited 12th Nov '10 6:31:56 PM by Servbot

Okay then.

Well, if there aren't any other objections, I'll start doing the merging and tweaking of examples later.

edited 13th Nov '10 6:51:08 AM by Servbot

This thread expired after 60 days of inactivity.