Pokémon anime

Eh, I just don't agree, at least on the front that they're sympathy makes me feel apathetic toward the main characters. Its mainly because I feel its less the heroes don't put forth any effort to winning, but the Team Rocket not actually being interested in improving as trainers.

I mean come on, you clearly see the main characters constantly improving and getting stronger, you can't tell me they put no effort in their wins, especially whenever I hear you praise it whenever Team Rocket do actually manage to put up a fight. Seems unfair.

The problem is that way too many of Team Rocket's challenging moments tend to get negated by the twerps' Plot Armor, thus it feels less a case of them getting stronger and smarter and just being protected by the plot. I mean how many times were Ash and co on the ropes until some Deus ex Machina or other character came in and did all but the final blow? It really doesn't come off as an accomplishment on their side. Ironically most of the times Ash managed to soldier through a Not So Harmless TR plot were at the start.

It's not even just Team Rocket, a common complaint with XY is that nearly every rival or opponent feels like the underdog to the twerps, and if they do have the advantage, the plot will bitch smack them back down to jobber level just so they can get an easy win. Hell I don't think Serena has ever won a battle (TR or not) where she wasn't either in complete control or given it. Otherwise she's a Damsel in Distress. This hasn't really improved since she debuted.

edited 10th Aug '16 8:11:40 AM by Psi001

Honestly, I just think you're way too biased towards Team Rocket; I'm not saying you don't have a point because you're right, but you're generalizing every instance of Plot Armor to justify downplaying the main character's achievements. You make it sound like Team Rocket deserves to win simply because they're the underdogs in their confrontations and that most of the time they lose is because of some contrivance, instead of the main characters just being that good to fend them off after a while.

Its not fair to their actual achievements and makes them come off as Designated Heroes who don't deserve most of their wins. And its also giving the Draco in Leather Pants treatment to Team Rocket when, once again, most of the time they lose is because of their own shortcomings. How many times have they lost because of some oversight or them getting too arrogant, and never quitting when they're already ahead? You're gonna tell me that's the main character's Plot Armor and not being done in by their own flaws?

I understand that you prefer Team Rocket over the main characters and probably feel like they should get their due, but doing so by trying to demonize the latter isn't really something I agree with. And I say this as someone who's apathetic to the main characters in this series for the most part.

edited 10th Aug '16 9:16:51 AM by BlackYakuzu94

I can see both points.

Jessie, James and Meowth, especially in the old days, had a really bad habit of trying to succeed through short cuts and cheating, even in situations where they might have faired well by playing fair.

At the same time, when they tried to play fair, they also sometimes failed miserably, which is likely why they tried to cheat.

To say nothing of the numerous times they were on the verge of winning, whether in honest contests or during their numerous attempts to steal pokemon, only for a random occurrence to screw them over.

Them being screwed over by their own flaws (not getting out while they were ahead, trying to cheat their way to victory, or just massive incompetence) is just as common as them being screwed over when they aren't even doing anything wrong.

At the same time, a lot of their issues stem from their near chronic determination to steal Pikachu. They've had plenty of opportunities to walk away from the life of criminals, but have flat out refused, falling back into trying to steal Pikachu as soon as the opportunity presents itself (not matter how detrimental it is to what they were already doing). They've shown that they might be better off leaving Team Rocket, but insist on trying to be criminals.

It's only recently that they've actually started becoming legitimate threats, which would seem to indicate that they are stronger trainers then they were before when they'd constantly try and short-cut their way to victory. But since they lose all the time and Ash (rather rightly) thinks the worst of them all the time, he comes off as being a dick (there were times when they tried to run and he chased after them just to send them flying, which seemed a little vindictive).

Maybe this wouldn't be a problem if they'd let Team Rocket win when they deserved to, or had them do stuff besides try and steal Pikachu like in Best Wishes. Vary things up with them a bit. Add that with the massive Character Development they got across all the different series, and maybe people would be rooting for the empire a bit less.

I repeat, it's not that I feel Ash's team are Designated Heroes. They deserve to win (and some rare times Team Rocket do deserve to win more, they get it), I just don't really feel invested by it at times because it keeps getting handed to them. The story just keeps doing things that sucks all the accomplishment out of it. I get kinda sick of one sided rivalries.

It's like how the Road Runner is in no way deserving of getting eaten by the arrogant Wile E Coyote, but the latter is still the focus of sympathy simply because he is the underdog, providing all the pathos and labouring despite physics bending over to protect the blandly invincible Road Runner. The difference is that the Road Runner is intentionally a Hero Antagonist, there's never the illusion you're meant to be invested in him like Ash's team.

The evolutions for example always seem a skewed display of progression since they are always formed as some 11th-Hour Superpower granted by powers above. The only time a Pokemon was rewarded after they'd done the hard work was ironically Charmander, and we all know how that went. Noibat is an absurd case. He'd hardly had any training and only a few sparse displays of progression in his original form, but his will to save Hawalucha randomly turned him into a super powered Noivern that could take on a legendary. It was a karmic gesture, but he's hardly the fruit bore from Ash's hard work and training.

Serena's showcases are another case. Many complained it was hard to invest in Serena's goal since she had no Worthy Opponent. She was an Instant Expert and could only ever lose by a fluke mistake on stage by one of her Pokemon (this is not TR favouritism either, Jessie at least got better handling than Nini or Miette, who was supposed to be her personal rival). At least one instance she was legitimately bested like May or Dawn suffered could have made the world of difference and at least implied she had to try her hardest, but it never happened until against Aria, which of course was too late for her to progress and develop on.

The post surrender blasting off was maybe the only thing I thought Ash went overboard with (emphasis on maybe, depending on the crime), even then though they seemed to drop most overkill beatdowns after Hoenn (which was pretty much the trio at their most hapless). Other than that it was usually only points the twerps were set up to have little knowing about anyway (eg. Guilt by Association moments, or when they targeted an Asshole Victim Pokemon who tormented them first).

I do admit I would have liked the more diverse roles of BW. XY was at least a good enough display of all they'd learned in the previous regions (as well as some neat other little Hidden Depths, eg. James secretly mentoring Serena with his 'Jeeves' persona), but the Pikachu formula did take over, it's probably why so many got sick of them by XYZ, despite at least being omitted from most episodes they weren't needed in any way. Some of their appearances felt like reruns.

Phew...sorry for that long ass post.

edited 10th Aug '16 11:52:37 AM by Psi001

Hm... Interesting theory regarding the anime.

To that, I'll just agree to disagree; I'm not going to act like XY(&Z) has been absolutely flawless, but I do feel like pros more than outweigh the cons so that they don't detract for me. Ash isn't infuriatingly incompetent, even if he is still pretty plain personality wise, but there's at least an attempt at some depth. Serena, Clemont, and Bonnie may just mostly be cheerleaders, but I still enjoy them and don't feel like they're merely tagalongs, and Team Rocket may just mostly be nuisances, but their appearances don't grate on me as much and they do get their own focus episodes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: Let me enjoy the fact that Ash is in the finals and is hair's breath away from winning a league against a suitably strong opponent :V

You begrudge Ash for blasting them off?

After all the crap they've put him through during the years, I give him props for not just telling his mons to outright kill them. I mean they're criminals and practically attempt armed robbery on him on almost a daily basis.

Screw those guys.

Its easy to feel pity for them considering they're mostly pathetic and decent people.

So it's basically the Tom and Jerry Syndrome then.

It is, but as I pointed out, they actively choose to continue hunting him and trying to steal pokemon, even when it's been shown they'd be happier and better off doing something else.

They kinda do bring some of it on themselves. The rest is a lot of crap getting piled on them even when they aren't doing anything wrong.

As said it's mostly position enforced rather than personality enforced sympathy. It's instinct to root for the underdog, even if the privileged always in control guy still deserves to win (as mentioned 'Tom and Jerry Syndrome'). As said the trio are usually pricks and family friendly traffickers, and even on best behaviour, annoying trolls. Just in comical cartoons, ineffectual sympathy trumps it all.

I won't lie that Ash winning the league or even just being in the finals is a gratifying step in progression, I just wish we'd had more moments his progress was allowed to be cathartic (though I loved those first few episodes of XY).

It's really just something that is tainting an otherwise good show to me rather than making me loathe it altogether, I have enjoyed a lot of XY. I've seen shows that do this to a much worse level of genuinely making it insufferable.

edited 10th Aug '16 2:09:53 PM by Psi001

I sometimes wonder if the reason the writers made all of XY's companions adore him is because this came directly after Iris who spent her entire saga belitting Ash.

This is really the first saga where Ash doesn't have any arguments with any of his companions. There are even quite a few episodes where he argues with May and Dawn. Serena, Bonnie and Clemont all adore Ash far more than any previous characters and think he can do no wrong. Even Brock called Ash out on his stupidity at times.

The closest thing we have to that would be when Serena was calling out Ash after his loss in the Snowbelle City Gym.

More comically was her dragging him away from the Furfrou trainer at the start of the league (we could have done with more light moments like that, not to mention it would likely have helped Ash be a bit more vibrant).

edited 10th Aug '16 2:54:56 PM by Psi001

I think ash is the best he's ever been, both as a character and as a trainer.

As a trainer without a doubt he is.

I thought Ash's personality started to get bland in DP outside of the episodes he was interacting with Paul or Dawn. XY Ash seems different than DP Ash in that regard, but its a bit hard to explain? Ash seems more like a shonen laid back protagonist this arc? In DP he was like that too, but I guess with the way DP was written he just felt kinda bland at that point aside from when Dawn or Paul got the focus with him.

AG Ash was basically a nice mix of what he was in the OS and what he eventually became in DP and XY.

edited 10th Aug '16 3:48:48 PM by precita

Meh, I feel he actually has development in X and Y.

The way the animation portrayed Ash before made it seem very hard to see if he was actually a developed character before.

Ironically, Shadoo said that it was Best Wishes!Ash that was "laid back". This time, Ash is the exact opposite: he's focused on his goals, (well, more focused than he normally is,) willing to make the sacrifices necessary to achieve them. (He was similar in DP, but that was more towards Paul. This time, it's all about his Pokemon as a group.) In fact, his one major stumbling block was not the result of a lack of focus, but, rather, misapplied focus.

With regard to his "cheerleading squad", it's a chicken-vs-egg scenario: Would Clemont and Bonnie (and Froakie) have followed Ash if he wasn't so awesome at Prism Tower the day of his arrival? If Serena had traveled with Kanto!Ash, would she still be in love with him? The respective Establishing Character Moments Ash has had with this group shaped their initial perceptions of him, and Kalos!Ash has by-and-large delivered on them. The moment that Ash did devolve to Kanto form was treated as a point of concern for the Kalos team. And it's not just them: compare Iris' first impression and her subsequent treatment of him (weakling -> bratty) to Cilan's (strong battle -> respect, in Cilan's peculiar style. EDIT: With regard to companions, Ash gets mainly what he first gives. The old proverb applies: You don't get a second chance to make a first'' impression."

edited 10th Aug '16 4:50:04 PM by DonaldthePotholer

I do love those times they portray him as exceptionally clever (which made it only further a shame about the Plot Armor issues) and I feel like the start of XY where all that training left him a dumbfoundingly competent rookie to everyone in Kalos, was meant to be some sort of compensation for regions of resets and being a Memetic Loser (especially in BW just beforehand).

It's just that Ash tends to have the most generic banter and interactions compared to the others. He's lost nearly all his snark and show off wit that made him charming in the early series (granted I'm not sure how much of that was attributed to the dub).

Hopefully, since Sun/Moon actually has a completely new setup, it can excuse his reset next series without diminishing his previous competence (eg. making him a Fish out of Water). I'm also hoping they won't interpret TR's lack of level grinding as Villain Decay and they'll be back to early XY competence/comedy ratio by the start of next region (especially since they're gaining a more dynamic Lensman Arms Race thing prior to XYZ).

edited 10th Aug '16 4:59:52 PM by Psi001

So....you're saying that he's the very best, like no one ever.....

<Bricked into Oblivion>

Aside from BW, Ash got consistently stronger in every passing saga.

At the time AG was airing he was considered the strongest yet because he was better than he was in Kanto/Johto. Then in DP he was considered the strongest yet because he continued to improve from there and had his strongest team yet and beat Paul. And now in XY he's considered the strongest yet because of everything that happened this saga.

Whatever the current saga is, aside from BW, is considered "the strongest Ash yet" until the next one comes. I mean this has happened for 3 major arcs in a row now.

Its particularly noticeable here since everyone has been shilling Ash in-universe and expecting him to win it all. Its not simply about winning a competition anymore, Ash has got something to prove and to live to the expectations that have been trusted upon him.

In the end you really have to wonder why they nerfed him so badly in BW.

I mean, it feels so divorced from the other series

Semi-reboots tend to happen when one feels something is missing in the original series. And since the Black and White games happens to be the first (and only) region to feature brand new Pokémon without the originals showing (until post-game and Black 2 and White 2), taking Ash back to the basic roots seemed like a good idea at the time, as many people felt he was boring and bland without kid-like charm and immaturity (as a result of him mellowing out his rashness and the gradual separation of the original cast). Plus, it would allow new viewers to not be burdened with Ash's past accomplishments as much as it had during the AG-DP period.

Well, it didn't worked out as planned since they got some of his old personality back, but applied it in the wrong way. Namely that Ash got some of his old incompetence along with his old traits, and it was around the time that people of the 90s were starting getting back into the Pokémon franchise as a whole.