Sexism In Anime

Someone a few pages back asked if it was okay to discuss LGBTQ stuff in anime here, and everyone agreed.

It's never stated outright, but Miyamura from Yamada and The Seven Witches is pretty much bisexual. He doesn't hesitate to show interest in women, but isn't shy about being affectionate towards Yamada either. After being freed from a power that makes him fall in love with Yamada, he said that being in love with him was quite a pleasant feeling.

And then I think there's also Haruhi's father from Ouran High School Host Club, who's working in a gay bar.

For girls, the first to come to mind is Kashima from Monthly Girls' Nozaki-kun. She's a bifauxnen who spends her time flirting with girls, but her main Love Interest is a guy.

edited 6th Jan '18 9:37:11 AM by TrueShadow1

Maybe Haruhi's dad is heterosexual but genderqueer/transgender?

I seem to recall him saying that he was bisexual but gave up on women after the death of Haruhi's mother. It's been a long time since I've seen that, though, so I may not be remembering right.

What do you guys think about "equal opportunity" fanservice? For example, Devilman Crybaby which just came out has plenty of female nudity and straight sex scenes, but there were also gratuitous shirtless guys and gay sex scenes. (Of course, one could also argue that nothing in the show was played for titillation at all, considering how often it was combined with massive amounts of gore or disturbing demonic transformations.)

I imagine the most problematic aspect of Devilman Crybaby is the scene in which Miki is masturbating on her bed thinking of Akira and having invasive thoughts of the man who raped her, but I'd argue that it wasn't necessarily exploitative considering I imagine it is something that happens in real life.

It's fine, there isn't really any thing wrong with fan service if it is in a place where it makes sense.

The problem is most "equal opertunity fan service" is really just male fan service applied to both sexes.

Could you tell us what female fanservice applied to either gender looks like?

I don't know if this is what Imca means since I think it's more common in western videogames than anime, but a lot of idealized male characters with super toned physiques exist more as a power fantasy for male viewers rather than something than titillation for women.

I've always thought that argument was bunk.
"Sexy women are proof of male sexism, and so are sexy men."
What, women can't fantasize about looking sexy themselves? They're only attracted to cats or something?

While there are deeper considerations of characterization and story relevance that may come into play, the bulk of that argument is demeaning to both sexes, stripping women of their sexual agency and hanging it on men as a detriment.

What they think is cool or attractive may not be the same thing men do. Most of the time, the male audience is the one who's catered to.

They're fictional characters, they have no agency.

Everything about them was decided by the (usually) male author.

A good route to go for what women find sexy is to read fanfiction. It's less overt sexuality, and more tender, if that makes sense. A guy would be more likely to find a man/woman posing nude with their sexual characteristics amplified to be sexy. A woman is more likely to enjoy a man/woman in a more relaxed, romantic setting, with more gentle emotions being shown and emphasized.

Think the difference between a playboy magazine and a candlelit dinner.

Those stereotypes are sexist. "Men are ruff, women are gentle" is a stereotype that needs to die. If many women didn't like the rough stuff, Fifty Shades Of Grey wouldn't be a thing.

I didn't say it was universal, I was using it as an example of what Imca was talking about. The difference between the male and female gaze, and how they are used in media.

Another example would be to compare Chris Evans in Captain America vs some old Hallmark movie he was in. Yes, there were women who find him to be hot in Cap, but his depiction in the Hallmark movie was designed with women's satisfaction in mind.

It's not the fictional characters losing their agency it's the women viewing the whatever.

Imagine a woman looking at... a fireman calendar, or something, and saying, "Woof". This argument walks up to her and says, "You don't like that!" She responds with a confused, "I don't?"
"No," says the argument, "Men like that!" and flings the calendar at a passing man, who responds with an equally confused, "I do?"

Yes, but was it designed by women with women's satisfaction in mind?

Like, take Magic Mike. Is it Female Gaze, or is it Male Gaze applied to a man?

edited 6th Jan '18 3:35:54 PM by TheHandle

You're missing the point by trying to make this about individual people, as opposed to a broad trend. Obviously you're gonna find women who are ok with or enjoy a lot of the male-targeted depictions of women, and that's perfectly ok, but "one person from this group thinks it's fine, so therefore this criticism is invalid" has always been a poor argument.

I literally just said it wasn't universal, that it was me giving an example of what Imca was talking about. Women like us have discussed this sort of thing at length, and it's not nearly as simple as you're claiming it is. It has to do with how these things are presented, the absence of agency, and the history of how men treat women vs how women treat men.

Let's take a look at Free! and Yuri!!! on Ice, both shows that are intended to be quite fanservicey for women, and have huge female fanbases as a result. Both have plenty of shirtless guys, but they also have lots of emotion-based fluff and focus on the relationships of those guys. Women generally require both in works catered towards them; Fifty Shades of Grey wouldn't have been popular without focus on the "romance" between Ana and Christian, and Edward and Jakob wouldn't be sex symbols if they weren't fighting over Bella.

I'm not just talking about one person, that was an illustration, I'm talking about a lot of women having their experience of sexuality invalidated by overly broad application of an idea that's not representing them.

To me at least, the question of 'male gaze versus female gaze in visual imagery' is a different question from 'depictions of fit male figures are a male power fantasy that females wot not of'. One is a "how" question, the other is a "what" question.

What are we being shown? Is that attractive? How is it being shown? Is that attractive?

I'm more curious as to, if these differences in what men and women find attractive do indeed exist (I'm willing to by other's testimony on this), why this is the case?

Except that isn't whats happening, its the oppisite of what is happening, currently it is our idea that is being invalidated because men think what they find ideal in a man is what women do too.

You know what happens when do fan-service of men for women by women? you get Thane from mass effect.... literally.... he was designed by bio-ware rounding up all the lady staffers and asking them what they wanted in an alien romantic option because they wanted a counterpart to the Asari..... "Big Eyes and kissable lips" were two of the notes on the docket.

Big buff manley men are scary, not attractive.... sure a bit of scruff is nice, but male power fantasy is not the same as womens sexual fantasy, not even close.

And yes you will find exceptions, but those are the exceptions not the rule, just like you will find men that are attracted to super butch muscular women, nothing wrong with that, but agian it is the exception, not the rule.

edited 6th Jan '18 5:29:54 PM by Imca

As far as I understand it, it's mostly cultural norms. The beauty standard of women being thin while also stacked is what most straight men get exposed to growing up, so they're conditioned to finding that attractive over other body types.

I'm not sure how women's preferences fall into this though. I could be talking total nonsense but the general response I've gotten from women who I've asked about this is they do like fitness, but not super huge gigantic muscles (think more of someone lean and muscular like say, the boys in Free!, and not so much someone like Guts from Berserk or Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star).

Hmm...fair enough. I wonder how many guys would find an extremely muscular person (of whatever gender(s) they're attracted to) attractive, for that matter...

As Yaoi has proven, at least Japanese women like both girly and then toned .... and pair them together.

As for huge muscle men, no one like them typically although they are a staple of Bara.

edited 6th Jan '18 5:44:52 PM by Memers