During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Roth sounds like he cracks it and yes to jackie and mir's delightfully narmy candidates!
I still have to say no to Roth. It's a good argument and you have no idea how much I want to see him up (the EDF is so awful it's almost parodic) but there's two main counterarguments:
1. Kobel doesn't count by virtue of not really being much of a character, but saying that his attempted genocide on Mars is an Informed Attribute is flat-out wrong. Roth himself says the Hydra is going to "lay waste to the entire planet" and repeatedly stresses its population-exterminating capabilities. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to connect point A to point B with Kobel flying in with that thing as a "last resort." So while Roth certainly has a much larger presence and direct body count than Kobel, I'm still concerned you're putting too much emphasis on the elements of his tyranny automatically being worse when we still have the non-qualifier's attempted Omnicidal Maniac moment to contend with.
2. There's still the standard to contend with even outside of Kobel. Now, I'm not incredibly familiar with Red Faction outside of Guerilla (just from research and the pre-existing writeups, it sounds nuts) but while Roth is the most visible Big Bad and the one in charge of the Mars occupation, he's not in charge of the EDF as a whole—he's more of a mid-level bureaucrat being squeezed between two ends in trying and failing to make a bad situation better for himself—and I'm not sure I'm willing to chalk up every systemic atrocity the EDF commits in Faction back to him. Pertinently every single individual member of the EDF onscreen has zero redeeming qualities whatsoever; all the way up from the higher-ups sending Kobel to begin with, to the mid-level bosses who are casually established as mass murderers in both their profiles and their missions, to every single no-name mook who will shoot civilian NPCs dead for breathing funny in their direction.
He's the closest to keeping in Guerilla, but between the insane standard the mass murdering villains from the other games present; Kobel's shadow still being cast over the game; and the questionable choice to chalk up all the EDF's onscreen cruelties back to him when it's more accurate to say they're scattered among every single tier in the orgainzation? I have to sadly concede "no." I'm willing to see some debate here, though, so don't take my word as the gospel.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 11th 2021 at 6:01:15 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Sable, but abstain on Roth.
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
So what you’re saying is the heinous standard is too jacked up for anyone not already listed as a CM to count in you’re opinion?
Edited by Tvtropesfan234 on Feb 11th 2021 at 4:57:50 AM
For the series? No. For Guerilla? Yes. The EDF's just one of those cases I wanna just put the entire freaking organization up since I genuinely don't remember any of them having a whiff of any redeeming quality, but alas, no groups are or ever will be allowed.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 11th 2021 at 5:55:56 AM
Goku Black
Uh okay.
I think I'll need ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Roth then. It sounds less like he's leading his men's atrocities and their all just monsters left off Their leash.
No we already have 4 other guys up. Which causes a huge problem mixed with the above as all of them do so horrendous stuff in their own.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 11th 2021 at 4:57:01 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
I'm switching it to for Roth. He doesn't do much throughout the story by the standards.
Yea to Mir's, but leaning nay to Roth
@Scraggle: That's okay. I don't really have much to counter with that. The most I could say is the only thing Roth stands out was his technical leadership; the really thing that can trace all their on planet atrocities to Roth is the propaganda playing him up to be in control of the situation.
But I don't think that means much, especially wothin the context of the game itself, they also paint Roth as a small time leader in the EDF as a whole. It's made clear he directly andsers to the unseen EDF council on Earth, and as far as their military goes, Kobel does outrank him.
Edited by Beast on Feb 11th 2021 at 5:03:58 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Switching to Roth
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Sable. So I guess we finally got that “evil photograph” CM after all (or evil camera... eh, close enough).
Abstain on Roth.
Edited by MasterN on Feb 11th 2021 at 5:16:08 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
We sure did.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
to Raymond der Merville
Edited by Tvtropesfan234 on Feb 11th 2021 at 5:36:55 AM
Has anyone suggested the demon lord Kostchtchie from Dungeons & Dragons yet? He seems like a good candidate, as the books say he's so evil even the other demon lords hate him, and the Dragon #345 article adds a bunch of disturbing backstory/details.
Feel free to go for Kotschie with those details, if they take him up. The one demon lord I've been meaning to do is Yeenoghu
So, my first medieval one:
What's the Work?
Pilgrimage is a 2017 Irish medieval film by Brendan Muldowney, starring Tom Holland and Jon Bernthal as the heroes...a group of monks and knights are transporting a holy relic from medieval Ireland, namely Brothers Diarmuid and Ciaran with their mute laborer...however, on the trip through Normandy, they run afoul of the wicked son of Baron de Merville, Raymond...
Who is Raymond der Merville?
A bloodthirsty soldier at a time when the Normans have been raiding Ireland, Raymond is a former crusader evidently known for his savage brutality and cruelty....Raymond secretly plots to steal the holy artifact to send it to King John of England (who also rules a vast swath of France) for his own benefit. The issue being that this will damn his own father's soul (who offers to help the monks in exchange for salvation from his own sins) is of no object.
To massacre the Pilgrims, he manipulates a conflict with a group of Gaelic mercenaries...having them massacre the soldiers and pilgrims, butchering soldier and noncombatant alike, with Brother Ciaran captured. Diarmuid and the Mute escape, barely, as Raymond has everyone slaughtered and has Ciaran tortured...before revealing something special he picked up. On the crusades? He slaughtered and tortured Greek priests, with a special barbed torture device to get them to tell him where they hid the gold. All of them talked...and he tortures Ciaran, promising a quick death only if Ciaran talks. Ciaran refuses, invoking Christ and Raymond kills him, agonizingly.
Diarmuid is able to recover the relic, leading the villains on a pursuit, ending as one of the surviving heroes convinces the Mute, a former Crusade to hold off the villain. The Mute engages Raymond who tries to torture him with the barbed prong, stabbing him during their fight...but the Mute grabs Raymond and bites out his throat, before avdancing on his other men...Diarmuid is, at the end, the only survivor with little idea of what to do next.
Mitigating issues?
Raymond is just a callous, greedy man with no real devotion to him. He wants to send off the relic from the Pope even though he knows it'll mean his father's soul, sneering his father is a coward. He's a raider, a murder, a torturer, has a high body count and has nothing good to him whatsoever.
Conclusion?
An easy keeper for Raymond, I'd say.
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 11th 2021 at 5:35:41 AM
Merville.
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
Goku Black
Merville
First for Richard Armitage?
Edited by miraculous on Feb 11th 2021 at 5:41:49 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
First for Armitage, yes, though expect an EP from me on that end in nine days' time.
Speaking of which, whatever happened to future movie writer and his EPS?
Richard Armitage kills 1 in Pilgrimage.
Futuremoviewriter has been spending time in the cleanup for Magnificent Bastard. He recently voted on the EP I made as a case for an MB for Terence Stamp.
Edited by k410ren on Feb 11th 2021 at 8:51:41 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Tropesfan? Please. Enough.
Enough with the inane questions. You don't need, and aren't entitled to know, the whereabouts of other tropers. You don't have to respond to everything or answer every question. It's getting stressful. Please, just take it back a bit.
"The Juice is Loose."
The Moron
A tragic no for Roth - words cannot describe how much I wish he could count - but a yes to Raymond
Voiced by Tom Virtue
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."