During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Actually in the Disney version, Lady Tremaine doesn't love her daughters, she just cares about their social standing, i.e. her own. If anything, she's only a marginally better parent to them than to Cinderella.
I don't think she's ever shown mistreating them, but she clearly cares more about herself and her standing.
That said, Cinderella is not and shouldn't ever be used for a statement on the heinous standard. It fails that considerably and adding a single murder won't change that.
I'd like to request all entries of One Piece to be removed except for the Celestial Dragons and Akainu.
The Celestial Dragons are slavers who treat their "property" like trash, think they are entitled to the world, will kill anyone they feel like without any sense of remorse, and they don't do so out of any kind of grand ambition or anything, they're just that monstrous. As a reminder, these are the kinds of people who would pick up strangers off the street or rob them from boats, put them in shackles, torture them for fun, and if anyone tried to stop them, they'd send the Marines to take them down.
Akainu is the epitome of the corrupted evil that is the Marines, being unwavering in his Knight Templar mentality. He murders fellow Marines if they falter, mocks Whitebeard and Ace for their beliefs and of course is the first character in the series to kill someone on-screen (at least not in a flashback), and after that he moved in for the next kill. Blackbeard is the only one who comes close in Luffy's eyes, but at least Blackbeard has had his honorable moments, and while he's petty, Akainu is stone-cold evil.
I'd almost consider adding Doflamingo due to the things he's done, but the love he shows for his own crew keeps him from being a total monster.
As for the others, Shiliew's just a backstabbing jerk, Hody's a crazy racist, and Caesar's even had his funny/cute moments. They're evil, yeah, but Shiliew isn't that heinous, Hody has the Freudian Excuse of Arlong and his kind brainwashing him from a young age, and while poisoning children is certainly heinous, Caesar is too pathetic to be so readily demonized.
Wouldn't the Celestial Dragons be a group?
edited 21st Feb '14 4:27:39 PM by TVRulezAgain
True, but each individual one is a complete monster as well, from what we've seen.
As for the others, Shiliew's just a backstabbing jerk, Hody's a crazy racist, and Caesar's even had his funny/cute moments. They're evil, yeah, but Shiliew isn't that heinous, Hody has the Freudian Excuse of Arlong and his kind brainwashing him from a young age, and while poisoning children is certainly heinous, Caesar is too pathetic to be so readily demonized.
No, Hody does not have an excuse. He never suffered at the hands of humans. He saw Otohime making inroads with humanity. He was simply hungy for power and murdered Otohime for that. The whole point of him was to show someone with no excuse and who embodied nothing more than hatred.
and no, Caesar isn't 'too pathetic.' He's getting a Humiliation Conga and is only 'pathetic' because he's beaten and helpless now. When he was active, he was far from pathetic and nothing more than a cruel sadist.
Shiliew I can see potentially cutting as 'all' he did was massacre a cellblock for fun.
As for the Dragons, they're nominally a group, but we're only listing the few of them we've seen
At any rate, Hody and Caesar do not meet the same heinous level that the Celestial Dragons and Akainu do. Not by a long shot.
And yes, Hody does have a Freudian Excuse. Even if he never experienced racism himself, it was thanks to Arlong drilling the idea into his brain that he hated humans so much. So there is a reason.
Hody caused a race war and nearly destroyed Fishman Island for his own ambitions. Caesar's Mad Scientist thing is also quite unique and a different flavor of monster entirely. We discussed him at length and overwhelmingly decided he cleared the heinous standard, as nobody else has gone to that level of experimenting on children
Oh, and how many other Fishmen had that 'drilled into their heads?' Fisher Tiger was a slave and while he hated humans to the end, he knew he was wrong and was disgusted with himself. Otohime's kids lived believing humans murdered their mother and got over it. Arlong's own sister is a believer in peace. hody has no excuse. Zero. He doesn't even care about his own people. That's the kicker. Hody isn't a victim of hatred, he's a predator who uses it and would happily destroy his own people for his own power. That hurls him over the heinous standard here. The fact that tons of Fishmen suffered far worse than Hody and grew up with the same beliefs, but became better people and the fact Hody doesn't give a damn about Fishmen and only seeks to gain power or destruction means that very, very weak Freudian Excuse doesn't fly. Being a racist jerk isn't much a defense, either.
Shiliew on the other hand, I can see cutting for now. I concur DoFlamingo meets the heinous standard but thus far he cares for his men (Possibly. His whole You Have Outlived Your Usefulness with Bellamy has put me in doubt for this)
edited 21st Feb '14 4:45:28 PM by Lightysnake
shouldn't we go over the celestial dragons and decide which ones count and which ones don't.
Wasn't it shown recently that he actually let Bellamy live and gave him a second chance?
edited 21st Feb '14 6:07:50 PM by doineedaname
A total has-been.
Okay, ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to all those One Piece villains. They're staying right where they are. Even Shiliew, who was one of the most feared and reviled characters in-universe.
Also keep Grace O'Connor mentioned a while back. She's the same deal as Griffith: never a good person, but becomes even worse by consciously choosing to detach herself of her sole redeeming feature.
Also, has Scar been resolved?
You still have to sit down and ask yourself if they measure up to Akainu. Because Akainu is the proverbial measuring stick for the series.
Doineedaname: That actually turned out to be a huge Bait the Dog. While Bellamy was loyal to a fault, DoFlamingo ordered another subordinate to kill him anyways just because he was an 'eyesore,' so he's not as nice to some subordinates.
Pope: I think that's a good idea, but I still find Hody and Caesar to clear that standard. Their crimes are evil in differing ways from Akainu and they distinguish themselves from others in the series.
I'm willing to hold on Caesar for now, but I think he may need to go sometime soon, as he seems to be almost bonding in a weird, demented way with the Straw Hats.
As for the Nobles being a group, the ones listed now are specifically the Roswalds, a family of three.
edited 21st Feb '14 6:33:10 PM by HamburgerTime
@A New Man Lighty is gonna tally up the Scar votes.
You can say the say thing about, say Freeza from DBZ blushing or Joffrey Baratheon sobbing and begging Arya not to hurt him.
A total has-been.
I thought I heard that the "bonding" with them was something Caesar was doing to pass time and relieve boredom since he's a hostage. If he got free, I think he'd let the Straw Hats die, if not kill them himself.
@The Pope: Seriously? We're going by looks and expressions to judge a CM? That's the sort of face I could easily see The Joker making, too!
edited 21st Feb '14 7:23:18 PM by ANewMan
I also admit I don't watch the OP anime, but Caesar is an amazing example of Bitch in Sheep's Clothing with the kids
It's not just the face, it's that he's genuinely blushing and bashful in that scene. And he has a ton of face faults.
He just really doesn't have enough menace to be put on the same level as Akainu or the World Nobles. He's just too funny sometimes.
I respectfully disagree. Caesar, in his intro arc, isn't funny at all. He acts sweet and nice, but he's vicious, depraved, cruel and utterly monstrous and seems to be Oda attempting to make the most vile character he can. After he's captured, he's pathetic, true, but the humor is usually at his expense. It's more a Humiliation Conga than Caesar being a joke character. I also need the context of that blushing scene (and I'd need to point out that just because it's in the anime, doesn't mean it's in the manga because I truly don't recall that scene)
I should also note that if Akainu hadn't blown up refugee ships, we'd be inclined to cut him. The only other truly nasty thing he did was kill the deserters. Killing Ace is Protagonist-Centered Morality in the extreme, as cruel as it was and wouldn't qualify him on its own. and as much as Akainu sticks to the "kill people for their bloodline" thing, even Sengoku was totally gung-ho on that. Akainu is just less polite about it.
edited 21st Feb '14 8:28:18 PM by Lightysnake
It's true that his butt monkey status is a result of the more recent arc, but even then, while he was a dick in Punk Hazard, I don't know if I'd qualify him as true, pure evil. He's just a douche, and his actions since then, while at his expense, have made it somewhat more difficult to look at him as a pure evil, heinous menace.
As for Akainu, blowing up a boat of civilians and claiming that it's justice is alone to skyrocket him to Complete Monster territory. But even then, you have the killing of deserters, killing Ace (which, yes, is protagonist-centered, but he specifically aimed for Luffy as a means to emotionally destroy Ace), but the biggest thing you have to consider is that more than anything else, he's a symbol of the Marines at their furthest point. He is Absolute Justice. He will do anything if it means justice, and even then "justice" can be qualified as murdering people who don't want to fight anymore (see: Coby). And the scariest part is that, unlike Caesar who's doing what he does for the glory and his ego, or the World Nobles who think they're entitled, Akainu actually thinks what he's doing is right. That's what's scary, and that's what makes him a monster.
That seems way too 'trying to look innocent' with how shocked Sanji is to see him.
Now, let's examine his actions in Punk Hazard:
- He blew up an island out of little else but pettiness.
- He enslaves children by addicting them to drugs and knowingly poisons them. He laughs this off, stating he can get more
- He experiments on Brownbeard's crew but also uses them for his own ends and manipulates them into turning on Brownbeard when he tries to save them. He tries to kill the men later
- He lets his own men be caught up in deadly poison gas.
I'm not sure how he doesn't clear the heinous standard. The thing with the kids alone? If you think Saint Jalmack is bad enough to be lumped with the rest of the Celestial Dragons, Caesar's the worst Would Hurt a Child guy in all OP.
As for Akainu, it's not claiming it's 'justice' that makes him a monster. Knight Templar and Well-Intentioned Extremist are tropes for a reason. Akainu is so extreme he slips through the cracks to end up too far on that side, but he could very easily miss being a monster.
Also, aiming for Luffy was more "you're Dragon's son, gotta kill you!" with hurting Ace as a desired effect. It's definitely nasty but he had a reason to target Luffy that no marine wouldn't engage in themselves with the chance. Caesar's actions go far more than beyond just being a jerk. Poisoning and drugging kids while knowing they'll die as you pretend to cure them and unleashing poison gas on men who trust you is far worse than that.
Lizzid people!
Just because a villain gets a Humiliation Conga doesn't mean that they stop being a CM. Just look at Kodai from Pokemon: Zoroark: Master of Illusions. Not only does he fail to get the Time Ripple, but he lands in the middle of the stadium and hears his own Evil Gloating on the screen in which he revealed that he killed all the vegetation in Crown City twenty years ago when he acquired the Time Ripple, and he would do it all again just so he could get more money out of predicting the future. He is then promptly arrested after he watched himself confessing his crimes on the big screen. It should also be noted that he used television in order to convince his citizens that Zoroark was a threat, so it makes it even more ironic. So overall, just because a CM goes through a Humiliation Conga doesn't essentially mean that they stop being a Complete Monster, it just means that they're getting their just deserts.
@The Pope
I know nothing about One Piece so I really can't comment either way. A character making funny faces, or having an amusing personality, however, is certainly not a reason to cut.
To reference a character Lightysnake and I are both fond of citing, Muruta Azrael can certainly be amusing, with his childlike enthusiasm, dark sense of humour, and over the top personality. None of which changes the fact that he's also a misogynistic, racist, genocidal maniac who plans to exterminate an entire race of people because he's afraid they're better than he is.
