During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Ringmasters
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don't agree with that argument. Since the original game version of Ridley is a non-keeper, who cares if a song's depiction of game!Ridley is similar to manga!Ridley?
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jun 29th 2020 at 1:56:01 AM
Is the argument that recreating a villain's crimes counts as a separate entity for the purpose of this trope? This seems like reaching, we didn't allow up the live action version of Yashiro due to being too similar to the original. This seems like reaching and I don't see anyone else stepping in to fight for him staying.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I, personally, am inclined to be more lenient with fan works (see the example of John Dee from 24 Hour Diner and my own Brainiac from that Injustice 2 fanwork).
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Eh....I'm gonna be neutral with this. But with that, the Film was an Adaptation of the Manga.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
I don't understand why slight variations in the film adaptation for It from the 90s or the aforementioned live action version of Yashiro clearly don't constitute enough of a change in everyone's mind but in this one sub-category people suddenly want this kept just so it can be listed. What nuance does it add to the list?
We all seem to recognize something coming first and presenting a particular interpretation of a character gives it claim to that "version" to be listed for CM and understand that relisting others that do the same makes no sense. Yet somehow for years it's been one of the many issues plaguing the fan works page and now we want to revert and put someone indistinguishable for the manga version first because the similarity might not have been intentional? Death of the author, I don't see why we need to reconsider.
Edited by 43110 on Jun 29th 2020 at 5:32:49 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Those are cases where an Adaptation of a charachter was too Simmular to the scource material.
This is a case of an Adaptation of an adaptation of a charachter being Simmular to some other adaptation of the original charachter.
Imagine if there was some comic with the red skull where his crimes were Simmular to one of the animated versions of him.
Edited by Kylotrope on Jun 28th 2020 at 11:34:08 PM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Lizzid people!
I mean Ridley in the song is the same vein of the manga one. I don't see why it's suddenly a problem. The whole destroying life is what he does in the manga. There he is already psychotic and there's no new perspective there either.
@ACW The thing with 24 Hour Diner is that, while Dee's most heinous crimes are generally the same, some of the events between the comic and the fan work play out in different ways (the ending is one example of this). I don't know about the Injustice 2: The Novelization (I haven't read it and I'm planning on checking that out), but the basic point is that the fan work needs to have at least one substantial difference from the source material to be counted as a seperate work, whether it'd be chaning up events or revealing and/or putting more emphasis on a one character's personality trait.
Edited by DrUnknown on Jun 29th 2020 at 2:54:26 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, I can confirm that with Injustice 2. There are indeed a few noticeable differences.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Interesting. Like what?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
From DeathByAdaptation.Fan Works (spoilers):
- This novelization of Injustice 2 has Catwoman killed by Grid in her and Cyborg's part of the story, and Grid in turn has his head smashed in by Cyborg. In the game proper, Catwoman simply disappeared after Brainiac collected Metropolis and Grid just vanished after Cyborg or Catwoman defeated him. Captain Cold, Scarecrow, and Cheetah all bite the dust in Chapter 13, and a de-powered Superman commits suicide by willingly falling to his death in Chapter 19. Chapter 9 also heavily implies that Hawkgirl committed suicide prior to the events of the story.
Edited by ACW on Jun 29th 2020 at 6:31:10 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I see. Thank you for bringing that up.
So this pretty well defeats the "more lenient" argument brought up earlier... seriously, let's find merit for putting up candidates and not just be going "And here's another medium's version of X, and here's another..."
Edited by 43110 on Jun 29th 2020 at 7:29:33 AM
Lizzid people!
Pretty much mu problem with Ridley.
Internet Man
If there's some confusion, I based Ridley off of the Manga. Or at least traits that were more clear (the ability to speak, for one) in the Manga than the games.
Again, Death of the Author, so this is more meant to answer a question than influence the choice.
I make YouTube videos and sometimes people like them
Thank you for the clarification. Love your songs, by the way.
I've reviewed Dark Samus to see if she should be cut as well, but I can safely say she and the other Man on the Internet entries stay. Lavos averts his original Generic Doomsday Villain characterization, Dimentio gets Adaptational Jerkass (or rather bumping his sadism Up To Eleven), Marx gets Adaptational Villainy, and Dark Samus has different crimes than her canon incarnation does.
Edited by DrUnknown on Jun 29th 2020 at 4:39:17 AM
Ringmasters
@43: I don't think your argument really makes sense when discussing two different takes on a pre-existing character. While I can see the logic for talking about adapting a character who's already a CM, when you have two different takes derived from a source material, can that really be said to apply?
@MOTI: Thank you for clarifying.
I'm about throwing in the towel on this one...
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
I’m with 43 on this one, and with that confirmation, I think we should cut song!Ridley.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Lizzid people!
He was already cut.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
He was already cut.
@43: You're entitled to your opinion, even if I disagree with it.
Though with the confirmation that Ridley was partly based on (or at least knowingly given traits of) his manga self, I'm starting to lean more towards cutting him being the right decision myself.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jun 29th 2020 at 5:12:49 AM
I'm really not comfortable doing so. He seems to be the same thing as the manga version, regardless of who the author meant to base him off.