During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yes to Zaragosa. Abstain on Alpha. Cut Mother.
OK, I understand now. Sorry for bringing that up.
NOW I'm going, see you some time in the future.
Edited by nwotyzal on May 6th 2020 at 10:08:32 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You don't necessarily have to leave.
I just haven't been feeling so good mentally and I think I should take a break for now and focus on other things.
Well, your health comes first.
Yeah, take care of yourself, we'll be here when you're feeling better.
Take care of yourself, Nwotyzal.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Zaragosa.
Cut Mother. What a shame to lose another CM/MB crossover.
JULY 2021 EDIT: No longer believe this.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Jul 14th 2021 at 12:37:54 PM
... can I ask what about crossovers is so important to everyone?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Speaking for myself, I find them interesting. The mix of charisma yet utter evil is fascinating. Strangely, the only crossover whose work I've actually seen is Hans.
Edited by ACW on May 6th 2020 at 5:42:13 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I just find it interesting how the two strongest (and most controversial) villain tropes can combine to create beings of true malice and menace. Shows how an MB doesn’t need to have redeeming qualities, either.
(When I saw Dimentio on the MB page for the first time, I thought he didn’t belong there because I thought the two tropes were mutually exclusive.)
JULY 2021 EDIT: Likewise.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Jul 14th 2021 at 12:38:06 PM
Lizzid people!
I...don't really see why it's a bad thing that Mother's getting removed from either trope. The initial EPs left out a good bit of information in the latter case, while here, her actions were conveyed through Alternate Character Interpretation. That's almost going into "badge of honor" territory.
Edited by AustinDR on May 6th 2020 at 3:01:33 AM
That highlights a concern of mine as well "Shame X has to go because Y" is a concern that can translate to many things over this trope and has given enough grief over the years.
After reading a bunch of Dragon Age EU material, i found one candidate i want to propose
What's the Work?
Dragon Age is one of the game series, which Bioware managed to turn into a franchise with a sex books, bunch of comics, one CGI movie and two web series. While the primary game series is dry of candidates, i read all books (except Tevinter Nights) and few of the comics and i found one candidate worthy of proposing. She comes from IDW 6 issue comic mini-series, which follows the daughter of Circle mage and a Templar, whose mother send as a baby to be adopted to a village, when Templars hunted her down because they wanted to take away her child and use for their own purposes. As the child (named Gleam) grows up and starts to display magic powers, she is raised by a family of blacksmiths, only for them soon to be killed and Gleam, her friend and adopted brother send on a quest to find their murderers.
My candidate is the the object of their hunt - the nameless witch, who is also the leader of small gang of bandits.
Who is the nameless witch?
The nameless witch is the leader of gang of 5 bandits, who have fun going around the lands and burning down villages and farms, killing everyone there. Taking a big joy from sadistically killing everyone they find, nameless witch is introduced stumbling upon the adopted family of blacksmiths, who live in a farm, when Gleam, her friend and younger adopted brother were sent to Orzammar to sell the dwarves their swords. Taking everything from the family, witch taunts the father and then kills the family anyway. When children returned they found the farm burning and their parents and eldest son dead, they buried them and Gleam swore to find and take revenge on the bandits.
The witch and her gang doesn't appear then until the last page of issue 5 (send to last issue), when children, guided by Minderel, the castless dwarf, who decided to help them to get away from Templars, stumble upon them finishing burning down an entire village (which is said only to be their latest target) full of people, children included. In last issue the witch and her gang sadistically toy with them and try to kill them, aside from Gleam, whom witch wants to sell to the Man of Light. During their fight, the witch openly gloats about killing their family and how she loves killing. As they were about to finish the heroes off, a group of Templars arrive and attack the gang, the witch leaves her gang to die, when they quickly start losing to the Templars, dragging Gleam along with her (still wanting to sell her), only for Sadatt (leader of the Templar group and biological father of Gleam) to intercept her and easily defeat her. Then Templars decided to hang the witch and her gang, allowing the younger adopted brother of Gleam to ask them, who killed their family and the witch gloated that it was her, leading to the boy slapping the horses, which holded them, thus finishing the hanging.
Mitigating Qualities?
None, the witch kills people, because she finds it fun and she holds no loyalty to her gang as well, as she immedialty abandoned them, when they were overwhelmed by a small group of Templars.
Heinousness?
I read all the books and played all the games of the series, plus i also read some of the comics and the witch stands out due to her lack of screentime and resorces compared to everyone else. Mass Murder isn't that common in the franchise to screw the standard and even when done, it was only done by powerful nobles with huge armies or powerful demons. Even in Dragon Age Inquisition, all villains were corrupted, manipulated or backed by increddibly powerful Corypheus. In contrast the witch and her gang are just 5 psychos with very limited power (to the point that small group of Templars was able to easily overpower them) and no backing, who burned down villages and farms simply because they thought it was fun. The witch and her gang only appeared in grand total of 18 pages out of all 133 pages of the comic mini-series and they kicked off much of the misery in the mini-series and while they only shown to burn one village and one farm on screen, it estabilished a pattern handly, when the witch openly admitted that they been doing that for a long time (as she says that adopted family of Gleam, which they murdered, was the best pickings they had in a week). This is the biggest bodycount in the comic mini-series.
Conclusion?
What do you think?
Edited by VeryVileVillian on May 6th 2020 at 1:40:16 PM
Goku Black
Uh sure. Witch
to the witch, if only barely.
to the nameless witch.
Yes to the witch.
The Draftsman of Doom
Witch.
I usually consider cuts to be unceremonious, myself. It just means that it needs to be discussed in the thread, is all.
By the way, what are we doing with the Xeno stuff? I mentioned that the Xeno page was cut, and that the cut page links to the post where the reason for cutting was given. I think it needs to be discussed, since we cannot have an orphaned monster page.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Ok then, I'll get to it. I will request that the entries be moved to the indexes for Video Games.
Edited by SkyCat32 on May 6th 2020 at 6:39:41 AM
Feels good, don't it?
Goku Black
Just move the examples yo the main page. It's a simple solution. Who knows maybe we'll get a page for chronicles eventually but not now
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Showtime!
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to the witch, i think you're downplaying the heinous standard here
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Sure to the witch.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
I....can't agree with the witch, I think. The heinous standard is jacked for DA.
Setting aside the Darkspawn which are a horde of Rapemurder fiends, you have the Baroness, Corypheus, random demons....the whole 'burning a few villages' thing is even eclipsed by what a few people did in the Ferelden occupation from Orlais.
I think i'm not. All candidates which outplay her are far above her in terms of resources and power. All of them arebacked by armies and such. Even in the books its like that.
In contrast the witch only has 4 other members of her gang, who are just grunts and her power is pretty weak, as it was shown when she was defeated in 3 panels by a Templar. Nobody else made that much damage as she did with her level of resources.
Baroness is a powerful Pride demon and those few people during occupation of ferelden were backed by usurper from Orlais.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on May 6th 2020 at 1:51:37 PM
We've had this discussion about countless other world keepers. The fact that roles can be flipped/history happened differently etc. doesn't suddenly remove everyone of their agency. Heroes aren't treated like they're "forced to do good" in the main verse...