During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Ooh, a Criminal Minds pruning? Yes, hack those four. The standard of this show is goddamned insane. I don't think Ramos belongs either, not in the slightest, but whatever.
Yeah, I'll lend my voice to the same.
An Eldritch Troper
How many Unsubs pass the heinous standard but have mitigating factors and who? I’m thinking of Breitkopf and the like.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Mind answering this question by PM?
I’d also say Roycewood, Boyd, Ramos and Mullens should go but that is just me.
Edited by Draxterrus on Feb 28th 2020 at 8:36:58 PM
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Not really relevant. We don't need to go through the gigantic freaking list of disqualified killers.
I just need to emphasize with the standard, again: we cut a character who burned children (as in plural) alive for not cutting it. Then we got the comment of "maybe if he raped the kids he'd stand out."
Maybe. Maaaaaybe.
An Eldritch Troper
Good, because I’m thinking of making a Monster of the Week type script fic series with a standard like that. (Or not, since I’m still at college and haven’t developed strong writing skills yet but you can advise me by PM.)
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Drax, there are forums here with writing advice? Maybe try those for that line? And with all respect, I don't really feel inclined to start writing an essay on X-killer who does XYZ but loved his mom or whatever. There are hundreds.
Also...you know what? I'm just gonna say to cut ramos. Bad as he is...Aubrey Plaza played an assassin with hundreds of victims, and she was hardly the only one. There's one bomber who had a bodycount in the hundreds. His entry is just "he killed 53 people" which, for a Mexican cartel hitman...doesn't strike me as bad enough
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 28th 2020 at 5:00:43 AM
Please, please cut Ramos. The last section of his writeup is focusing on the killer he inadvertently set off while I don't think the rest of his rapsheet cuts it for the series. I don't care about the bleach thing—Cruel and Unusual Death is standard hat in this series—and if Lighty's corrected then he doesn't even stand out in terms of victim count.
Cy I'm willing to show lenience towards because again, there are the tapes indicating he had more victims. You could argue ambiguity, but given the disgusted reactions from the BAU when they uncover said tapes, I'm pretty sure that's supposed to indicate that they're other torture sessions of his. I'd say the same with J.B. Allen but I'd be more okay with him being cut since Cy was way, way more vile and hateable as far as personality went even if they're both utter scum.
The other two though... yeah, I think ACW's making the right call, and I'm saying this as the guy who proposed the Replicator in the first place. I wasn't entirely confident in him, I remember there being only a small amount of votes indicating other people weren't confident in him, and I even began having more doubts later on. So yeah, I'm okay with him getting cut, same with Preston.
Oh, and I echo Tyk's sentiments on Ramos: I believe he's just bad enough to count, but at the same time I won't lose any sleep over him getting cut.
Edited by FriedWarthog on Feb 28th 2020 at 5:08:58 AM
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
-sighs-
Oh screw it. Cut those four Criminal Minds dudes.
Ramos on the other hand I'm fine with keeping. Yeah, his write-up's short, but forcing your victims to drink bleach is a fucked-up way to murder someone, and it's mentioned that some of his victims were children. I'm not gonna make a fuss if he gets scratched, but personally I'm more lenient with him staying.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Cut Bradstone, Preston, Allen and Curtis. Wouldn't be opposed to removing Foyet either, but that's just me.
I do get that's effed up, but...we have people who torture dozens to death, too.
I'd be opposed to removing Foyet. He's the guy who set the series to becoming much darker. Foyet is a Knight of Cerebus to the show if that's possible, one of the most twisted and vile killers with an enormous count. Before him, it wasn't nearly as nuts.
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 28th 2020 at 5:09:08 AM
No to Melanie and CLU.
Yes to Sahdowbeast, Ibara
Here are my Old Man Quill Write-Ups:
- Old Man Logan: In the Old Man Quill mini-series, Galactus serves as the dark god of the Church of Universal Truth, which is led by his zealous servant, the Matriarch. Galactus stole the power cosmic from the Silver Surfer, putting him into a coma in the process. Galactus than uses the power cosmic to create a machine to mind control people, mentally enslaving people to fill the Church's ranks. Matriarch retains her free will and leads the Church's forces, attempting to subdue planets and lead Galactus to them so that he can devour them. The Matriarch attacks Peter Quill, providing a distraction so Galactus can devour the planet Spartax, killing everyone on it, including Quill's family. The Matriarch and the Church launch an attack on New Xander, home of the Nova Corps. The Nova Corps seeming defeats the Church, the Matriarch summons Galactus, so that he can devour that planet as well. When the Matriarch discovers most of Earth's heroes have been killed in the supervillain uprising, she informs Galactus, who is delighted to have a chance to devour Earth without interference.
Edited by Overlord on Feb 28th 2020 at 5:39:05 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
"A piece of shit to be sure, but with only 3 victims, only one of whom he managed to kill"
Cut all 4 of those guys, Burn that one.
Keep Ramos, the Bleach thing sounds unique enough. And personally I don't think the fact there are other awful ways to kill on the show invalidates that.
Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 28th 2020 at 3:22:15 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
An Eldritch Troper
By this point I don’t think it’s appropriate to keep the Old Man Logan series at X-Men if it expands beyond the X-Men to Hawkeye and Star Lord from Guardians of The Galaxy. Probably keep Maestro and Sinister’s entries, maybe, but...
Also I would repeat, cut Ramos.
Edited by Draxterrus on Feb 28th 2020 at 9:22:25 PM
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
My only gripe with the writeup: bump up when Matriarch is first mentioned in the entry or split her entirely. As is, it's unclear at a glance they're supposed to be listed together.
An Eldritch Troper
Is it appropriate to have the Old Man Hawkeye and Quill entries at X-Men? They probably need to be relocated to the main Marvel page.
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Okay, so...I have a candidate I've waffled on a bit...From, of all things, Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
What's the work?
Buffy is the famous series of a the Slayer, an empowered girl chosen to fight evil. The Slayer this time around is Buffy Summers...now, in season 2, Buffy's vampire lover Angel becomes evil (long story) and Buffy is forced to kill him to save the world....shattered emotionally, Buffy flees her home of Sunnydale to LA where she takes the name Anne, a waitress with no contact of any of her friends or family....she befriends a girl named Lily living on the streets, with a huge community of teenage runaways and homeless who live on the edge of society with little hope...and a kind man named Ken who runs a shelter called the Family home...
Except...Ken has some secrets.
Who is Ken?
Ken is a demon who wears human prosthetics. The leader of a hell dimension where time flows quickly, Ken uses the Family Home to lure in his victims...targeting teenagers and runaways in need of help, Ken enslaves them in his dimension where they are tortured and used for backbreaking, hope-crushing labor....this goes on for decades, but the cruelest part? They aren't simply worked there. The kids are rendered into nonentities. Every day, an overseer steps before them, asking them "who are you?" Any answer other than "Nobody" means immediate execution. Beaten and broken, little by little, they go insane and forget who they are, becoming shells of themselves. When nothing is left of them, Ken throws them back to earth to rot on the streets, broken and elderly who can only mumble how they're 'nobody.'
Buffy meets a woman named Lily who is living in LA with her boyfriend Ricky, in similar straits...Lily is a former vampire groupie Buffy saved who fled that scene...then Ricky goes missing. Buffy later discovers a corpse of an old man with a tattoo of half a heart on his forearm with Lily's name. Lily has the half with Ricky's, which twigs to her something is horribly wrong.
Eventually Ken traps both of them, revealing his operation....luring in the teenagers and preying on their troubles, he mocks how they are left to slave, be broken and grinded down, even taunting Lily how Ricky remembered her name many, many years after he forgot his own. They will work until there's nothing left of them. And then he'll just hurl them back to the streets to die.
In the line of the day, the overseer executes one teen for saying his name...and then Buffy refuses to give in, fighting back and starting a full blown rebellion to Ken's shock and horror ("Humans...dont' fight back! That's not how this works!") Buffy wins and manages to save those there, bringing them to LA. Ken rushes to engage her, but a shattered gate is dropped on him, agonizingly impaling his legs. Buffy, holding a big club, asks if Ken wants to see her Gandhi impression....before swinging said club down with a gruesome noise. When Lily questions the relevance of Gandhi, Buffy just quips "If he were really pissed off."
Heinousness?
Okay, it's freaking Buffy. Shall we begin? Torture, murder, mass murder, soul enslavement, hell dimensions, attempts to cause the apocalypse....look, we're used to that, right? What makes Ken stand out?
The crime he commits...and the sheer vileness of it. Now, child-killing demons aren't unheard of, but Ken is a predator who asks to help teenage runaways, kids at their lowest...and then pulls them to a place where they are tortured, mentally shattered and destroyed body and soul until nothing is left with a grand scale operation. He's not a world-destroying monster, he's a slaver who runs a nothing group in the middle of nowhere and makes it a hell of its own. With guys like Pavayne or Billy Blim, this carves a monstrous niche....and the mental torture to kids like that, forcing them to say they're nobody until they forget whoever they are or ever were? Ouch.
Mitigating Qualities?
Zip. Ken is a full Card-Carrying Villain who loves to drive in how cruel things are in his little home: “What is Hell, but the total absence of Hope? The substance, the tactile proof of despair?” He acts friendly to lure in victims, but this is nothing but a farce, and he has no care for his men or anything else. Now, demons in Buffy do have agency...we see this time and time again. No, no good qualities to discuss for Ken here.
Conclusion?
I'd say keep Ken
Yes to Ken.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Ibara and Ken
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Cy, Preston, Allen and Replicator
Abstain on Ramos
Who's this guy who burns kids alive? Because that honestly does sound heinous enough.
An Eldritch Troper
A guy who burns kids alive? Roycewood does the same thing and probably more.
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
@ Scraggle, I feel like their crimes are too connected to be separated, Galactus is the dark god of the Church of Universal Truth and the Matriarch is the chief priestess. She leads him to planets he can devour, he mind controls people, but she commands them on the field. I can get rid the bit about adaptional villainy just put the Matriarch a bit ahead.
Yes to Ken.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
to Zen.
Its often to see screwed up bad guys. But That is one of the few things to just make me go "Oh....oh my god" on the thread.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Going to abstain on all the Criminal Minds people because I know very little about the series and am not sure quite what the heinous standard is for it
You know what, screw it, I'll do it now and then go to bed and see what happens when I wake up (yes, it's early. I'm a morning person
). And yes, I've been working on this for MONTHS ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]")
First off, someone can see the eps if they want, but I believe there are no new keepers for the final season of Criminal Minds.
That said, let's discuss the current entries. First off, this only applies to the American show ones; the Korean ones are all fine, due to a MUCH lower standard (though Choi would EASILY count even on the main show; MAYBE the Reaper too).
Of the 20 current unsubs listed as CMs, here are the 16 I feel are definite keeps:
- Jackson Cally, to say nothing of his trying to massacre numerous children (probably enough on its own), tried to start a race war, a singularly unique crime (I believe) for the series.
- Holcombe has his 60+ murders, and the cruelty of his murders, plus wanting to Kill the Poor. Now, in the interest of full disclosure, he's profiled that "he truly believes that he's doing the world a great service". The only problem with THAT is, he doesn't JUST kill his victims (and not painlessly either), he torments them beforehand, removing any WIE qualities he might have had and becoming an easy keep.
- Anita is one of the worst child-killers on the show. Even if she doesn't have a high quantity (I think the Fox has more), and even though her victims were sedated first, even before killing them, her utter abuse...yeah, she stays.
- Boyd has 40+ murders and bigotry. Easy enough keep. Especially because he doesn't just kill them, he chases them on his ATV until they can't fight, which is enough to push him above, say, Randy Slade.
- Shane Wyland I was initially slightly hesitant on, but when I saw the ep, that vanished. Roughly a dozen victims—kids—raped during winters and then killed. He stacks up nicely compared to Anita; even if neither have as many victims as Buford, each killed more, so all 3 stack up nicely. Now, Wyland DOES let his victims take a toy (which he likely uses as a trophy), and lets his newest victims have water, but that's likely just Pragmatic Villainy. Nothing indicates compassion.
- Lucy, a Human Trafficking boss, doesn't have as high a confirmed body count as Zorgen (see below), and her ring is bigger than Zorgen's, but Ambar made some good points
. And human trafficking is SO rare on the show (besides her and Zorgen, there's McGregor who was voted down, and someone in flashbacks), she can stay. Now, the ring DOES give the victims medicine, but that's probably just Pragmatic Villainy: No sense having them sick and weak beforehand.
- Vasher has a triple-digit body count.
- Crossford has his barely-stopped quadruple-digit attempted body count.
- Merva ALSO has a triple-digit body count, nearly double Vasher's (though Vasher came thisclose to likely exceeding Merva's).
Eps I've not seen, but still feel like these are easy enough keepsThat leaves 4 who I could see being cut (and if it seems like I'm arguing with myself for some of these...I kind of am
If those 4 were being proposed TODAY, I'd probably vote![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]")
Replicator, a reluctant ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]")
to Bradstone (we'd need a new image) and Allen, and abstain-leaning-VERY-slightly-no on Preston.
What say you all? Either about the ones I'm unsure about; OR the ones I feel are keepers (Boyd probably being the weakest among the latter, but still a fairly solid keep IMHO. Then again, I thought Slade was a keep, so who knows?)?
Edited by ACW on Feb 28th 2020 at 7:09:27 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts