During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yes to Kouzuki. Not sure what to say on Podarkes.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Cut Podarkes, then.
Edited by falcontalons on Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:46:52 AM
I'll go with cut there.
Showtime!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Kouzuki
to Kouzuki
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to everyone I missed, except for KH Scar, who gets a no.
Anyway since I have been finding new examples from major 80s properties lately, I think I will continue and find more examples from a franchise we have covered before, but likely has more examples ghostbusters. Today I am going to cover a villain from the Now comics Real Ghostbusters comic that ran from the late 80s to early 90s and Lighty will cover another in due time.
Who is Mr. Cosmos? What has he done?
From issue 24, Carnival (traveling carnivals are always bad news in fiction), Mr. Cosmos was a carnival ringmaster and secretly a powerful wizard. In 1942, he visits a small town in New York state called Green Town and his circus keeps their minds off of the war. Mr. Cosmos offers to protect the town from the war and just to hammer home the point, shows how the war will end and shows them a nuclear explosion (I think he edited that information for maximum effect) and the people of Green Town beg him to protect them. So he casts a spell, to make the people of Green Town immortal and erase all traces of its existence and that was fine, for a while.
But the war ended and the spell stayed in place and it had a hidden price, the people's spirits will live on Earth forever, but their bodies will still age. Over the decades the town's people became rotting zombies, in constant pain. Cosmos's daughter (who's magic prevents her from becoming a zombie) Denetia decides that is wrong and escapes the town, fleeing to NYC. She finds the Ghostbusters and lets them know of the situation, leading Denetia and the Ghostbusters to head to Green Town.
Cosmos has transformed some of his circus performers into monsters and orders them to kill Denetia and any outsiders she brings. Denetia is able to cow these monsters, making them wonder if Cosmos will be happy if they harm his daughter and brings up the fact they grew up together as children. Cosmos also sent supernatural creatures to kill Denetia and her allies, but they defeat them.
The Ghostbusters get into town, see it in disrepair and the town's people are zombies begging for release. Cosmos shows up and attacks, intending to kill his daughter. The Ghostbusters attack him and the town's people combine their souls into a giant monster to attack Cosmos. Cosmos screams at them for being ungrateful, saying he gave them immortality, but they were too weak to accept the consequences that go along with it. Egon demands Cosmos release them, but he refuses, saying he would lose his power over the valley if he did so. However, Egon blasts Cosmos and says he took away their humanity. Denetia begs her father to release them and Cosmos decides he cannot defeat his daughter, the Ghostbusters and the town's people and does it.
Is he heinous by the standard of the story?
So this comic is based on the Real Ghostbusters cartoon, but its own medium and we can judge its own I think.
This comic features a lot of different villains: there is a ghost T-Rex that rules an underground kingdom and wants to conquer the surface world. There was also a water demon who promised to save a large ship full of people if they become his slaves for 100 years and gives them freedom for like an hour before trying to enslave them again. There are ghost gangsters, a witch that wants to possess a young woman, a toxic waste monster that wants to destroy the factory that created it. A demon lord who wanted to transform humanity into demon servants. Of course, there is the villain who Lighty will propose, who will remain nameless.
That being said, Cosmos has a nasty niche here, he sentenced this town to a neverending hell and intended to keep it going as long as he could. Maybe not the most ambitious Ghostbusters villain, but I think it stands out in this series.
Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
I do not think so, he is willing to kill his daughter and any pretense of him being WIE go out the window when he says he will not free the town's people in order to maintain his power over the valley. He seems more like a psychopath who wants a personal fiefdom than a guy with good intentions.
And he did not free the town's people due to his daughter's pleas, the narration makes it clear he knows he cannot win and he decides to give up.
Final Verdict?
I say yes. Another Ghostbusters keep I think.
Also, does anyone think the Water Demon is worth proposing or is Cosmos just more heinous then him?
Edited by Overlord on Aug 3rd 2019 at 5:26:17 AM
Yes to Cosmos. The water demon sounds like he could be worth an EP as well.
Edited by falcontalons on Aug 3rd 2019 at 5:19:08 AM
Kouzuki and Mr. Cosmos.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure to Mr. Cosmos.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Kouzoki Kosmos
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yea on Cosmos
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
to Mr. Cosmos.
Yeah the water demon sounds like they could also count, I'd recommend Effort Posting them.
Any opinions on my write up for Johnny on the previous page?
I am a man of my word. Mostly. So I say cut Addin.
Also:
"Wait, so, in a family friendly work, if a villain tries to do things that are truly in the Moral Event Horizon territory but not much attention is drawn to them and they're not treated either any worse or less bad than their other crimes, this thread treats them no differently than the characters In-Universe treat them? Huh. Didn't know that."
I sense some passive aggressiveness here, but let's get one thing straight: You're overplaying this. You suggest Scar didn't know who Sora, Donald and Goofy were, but we clearly see Scar with Pete. The implications are clear that Pete is meddling. You say that he's likely ordered the lionesses to hunt other lions, but the game doesn't give us nearly enough to infer this. The way it's played Sora could have been a wolf instead and nothing would be different in the script.
The game could have gone above and beyond to sell this act. Have Nala call Scar out on his cannibalism. Have Scar mention they've done it before. etc etc. But the writers do not make the effort to make it stand out in any way. And that is a problem. We don't always need to have characters react with horror or something like that, but if they don't you gotta make an extra effort to really convince us the work depicts the character as being truly vile. And all you've done is feed us misinformation or exaggerate.
Like, for real, there is no indication he knows Nala is pregnant. You pulled that out of almost nowhere. OK, so he could know, but "could" isn't good enough here. He doesn't mention it, he doesn't even speak to Nala. It's just him attacking someone else.
I'm sorry if I'm coming off as harsh.
"The Juice is Loose."
Gentle Laborer
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Agreed.
And to Cosmos.
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Aug 3rd 2019 at 9:47:50 AM
The Lord Of Walruses
to Johnny, Kermés, Karpan. The rake, Mr. Cosmo, and koizuki.
I’ve reformatted Gor’s quote
EDIT: Fixed capitalization and film page link
Edited by PureGrainAlkaSeltzer on Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:11:37 AM
I have no idea what I am doing
to Cosmos. so does anyone else want to vote on wether to cut Podarkes?
Someone for Assassins Creed Odyssey I mentioned him on the last page to why I considered that he should be cut
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:34:41 AM
Lizzid people!
Who's that?
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
The EP on Podarkes was when I brought up that the heinous standard for AC was getting too ridiculous. So sure, cut him.
And for Mr. Cosmos. Lemme guess, we're getting another subpage for a franchise, aren't we?
Kouzuki and Cosmos. I'll agree with cutting Podarkes as well.
The Draftsman of Doom
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
I agree with cutting Podarkes as well.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
So, with 2019!Scar and fanfic!Scar being added, that means there are now at least 5 versions of him that qualify (the other 3 being Original!Scar, Broadway!Scar, and Lion Guard!Scar).
Not bad for a villain who was once considered a non-keeper.
Edited by toonyloon on Aug 3rd 2019 at 6:56:58 AM
Edited by IukaSylvie on Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:45:01 PM