During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
He tries to blow the roof with Karl on it and couldn't have cared less about the SWAT team. And in at least one cut I've seen, he says "go tell Karl his brother is dead."
@Lighty Yeah, I agree that just because he only said to wound them, that’s not really redeeming.
"Go tell Karl" wasn’t what he said in the movie though. Also, there are things he says in German that aren’t accounted for, so we need someone who speaks German to translate in case he said anything of note.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 15th 2018 at 10:02:38 AM
No, Future. We don't.
OK, some updates I keep forgetting to post that might not be necessary but might be helpful for someone:
I'm a Marvel and I'm a DC has been getting new content again. We recently had a rewrite of The Joker and even accepted Darkseid. So this might be pertinent to us. I know right now is that The Joker is involved as part of Lex Luthor's plan to capitalise on the heroes not wanting to compare notes on film adaptations anymore. Also Rorschach and Deadpool getting up to Time Travel hijinks.
Also of note, and I'm sure many here already know: Much of Final Fantasy XV's planned future DLC has been cancelled. 4 pieces were intended for 2019 release and now only Episode Ardyn is coming out.
That being said, the team has said they'd like to tell the story they wanted in some way. In what way? I dunno. Novelisation, Manga, Audio Drama etc. There's so many avenues. I say we keep an ear to the ground - and I imagine Lighty would want first dibs on any such content since he's been our XV guy for a long while now.
That's all for now. Hope everyone's well.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@Future: How many times are you going to bring up issues that were either resolved or thoroughly discussed many months ago? :/
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
To be fair, while Karl was mentioned in the effortpost, the only thing about the SWAT team mentioned was that Hans and co. obliterated them (hmm, that's not really mitigating, is it? ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
).
Gentle Laborer
ACW could you add Yule to the pending list ><
Hopefully i'll be able to do his writeup today.
Goku Black
Yep Pretty sure even if he didnt intend to kill them, the fact he ends up doing it anyway without a shred of remorse isnt mitigating.
Though please Future if a character has been discussed before and the same thing was gone over, dont bring it up.
Edited by miraculous on Nov 15th 2018 at 11:05:13 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The quote was wrong, so that’s why I felt the need to bring it up. It kind of changes the outlook of that scene. Whether it’s mitigating or not, he hadn’t the decency to break the news to Karl in person.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
It doesn't matter. He was willing to blow Karl to smithereens without hesitation later on. Nothing about Hans is mitigating.
End of story, Future.
Edited by Tyk5919 on Nov 15th 2018 at 2:13:53 PM
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
It does not. It has no such effect.
Future, you need to stop picking at things. Everyone here, in this thread, has asked you multiple times. We have explained what being a productive member here is and you seem to still not understand it.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Crow: Done.
Huh, funny that: We got a Christmas CM, we're DISCUSSING a Christmas CM (I don't care what Willis says, Die Hard IS a Christmas movie), and it's snowing here outside DC
@ACW Yeah, that is pretty funny. Also, it’s definitely a Christmas movie and Die Hard 2 took place in a DC airport if I’m not mistaken. The movie looked great on the big screen and I’m glad I went.
Could we just drop Die Hard in every context right now? This is a discussion that didn't need to happen.
Future? This should've answered itself. Next time, if you've got a question about a candidate who was concluded months ago? I implore you to consider the fact that it either isn't mitigating or that it's already been covered and not bring it up again please. Generally, "concluded" means we've already gone over said quality and this should go without saying for high-profile characters like Hans.
Goku Black
Anybody got an ep so we can move on from this ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Just got an old-school PS 1 sci-fi game in the mail today. Currently playing through it to refresh my memory if anyone counted—and also since it's been forever since I played it.
Speaking of Die Hard...give me a bit. I may have a related EP
Ironically my own question had to do with beating dead horses and potential new arguments, but I don't want to kick no hornets nest and this page further answered my questions.
In other news the new Life Is Strange comic series has begun and already have my eye on someone. In fact they've met two of my predictions so far.
Also aparently my city is still releasing movies a day early, cuz Crimes of Grindelwald is playing in my theatre in a couple hours. So PM me in a few hours or so if you have questions.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Huh, I'm intrigued. I could've sworn we covered everyone. Stuart it was determined was A Father to His Men, Simon obviouls doesn't count, I didn't see the 4th film (PG-13 bullshit) but Gabriel seems to not count, and the Komorovs definitely don't seem to count.
Trust in LS. Be patient. Wait.
I may surprise you.
@Lighty No matter what it is, I’m getting very excited.
@ACW I personally love Live Free or Die Hard second to the first. Also, yeah Gabriel was genuinely upset about his girlfriend’s death and he truly believed what he was doing would make things better.
"The Juice is Loose."
@Lighty I can't wait.
Edited by Bullman on Nov 15th 2018 at 4:14:42 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Handsome Head of Hyperion
Another candidate from myself. This character comes from a Batman comic, so while I would guess he's been discussed, I can't find any sort of effortpost or discussion on him, so here goes. From Batman: Gothic by Grant Morrison.
Who is Mr. Whisper? What has he done?
Once a pious monk by the name of Manfred living in a monastery centuries ago, Whisper grew to believe that sin, lust, and depravity were the "true" way to live life, and slowly corrupts his entire monastery and turns them into a nightmarish cult of sadistic monsters. Whisper leads the cult in kidnapping and performing all sorts of horrifying depravities to countless innocents, notably gang-raping then burning several nuns alive.
When Whisper contracted a plague afflicted his land, he contacted and made a deal with Satan himself, promising sacrifices in exchange for several centuries' worth of immortality.
Eventually, Whisper's monastery was wiped out by a flood, however he survived, proving his immortality, and began a centuries-long murder spree, keeping himself alive and sustained.
Arriving in Gotham as his contract with the devil nears its end, Whisper begins work on his "master plan" to "cheat" the devil, becoming a headmaster of a private school for children who he regularly abuses and allows perverted teachers to torment.
Whisper eventually became a serial killer of children, murdering them and using their blood in experiments he performed to create a new plague like the one that once afflicted his land centuries ago. When a young Bruce Wayne tries to investigate the disappearance of one of his friends, Whisper beats him with a rod while subtly allowing him to see his friend's decapitated head stored in Whisper's office, just to torment the boy.
As he attempted to claim his 8th child, Whisper came under attack from a gang of mobsters disgusted with his atrocities, and though they fail to kill him due to his immortality, they tie an anchor around his neck and chunk him into the ocean.
Escaping this predicament, Whisper leaves Gotham, murders dozens more people around the world, then returns to Gotham, beginning to pick off the monsters who had attempted to kill him one by one just to pass the time and for 'fun'.
He namely drops one mobster and his lover down an elevator shaft, kills two crooks then burns an innocent witness alive, and bombs an opera house to kill another crook and his lover.
Later murdering his one "partner" throughout the whole ordeal along with dozens more people, Whisper captures Batman and reveals his "master plan" is to flood Gotham with a a highly-virulent plague that will soon enough painfully and agonizingly kill millions of citizens, at which point Whisper will sacrifice their souls to the devil for eternal pain and suffering in exchange for his own soul, thus 'cheating' his way out of an eternity of damnation.
Ultimately Whisper's plan is foiled by Batman, and though he tries to flee and plan a new scheme, the devil comes early to collect on Whisper for trying to cheat him, and drags the villain kicking and screaming into hell, fulfilling the contract.
Does Whisper have a Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?
No. Whisper willingly fell into debauchery and evil, and though his crimes in the present are MOSTLY just trying to get out of being damned to hell, it's his own fault in the first place and he is still downright sadistic and gleeful about murdering innocents and children.
Is Whisper sufficiently heinous?
I'd say so. His crimes in the present day alone might not qualify him, as despite being a child murderer and having dozens of victims to his name on top of planning to violently and painfully kill millions and damn their souls to hell, this IS Batman we're talking about, but I think his extra crimes of having a centuries' long rapsheet and his original atrocity of turning a monastery into a rape, torture, and immolation camp puts him over.
Final Verdict?
I would say ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
, but won't be surprised if there are counterarguments, since there has to be a reason he hasn't been discussed yet.
Easy yes to Whisper. That sounds awful even by his usual standards.
I was gonna wait for the go ahead behind the scenes, but I’ve gotten no response yet, so I’m gonna move forward. If this has already been asked and answered, I apologize.
I went to the re-release of Die Hard last night and as I suspected, Hans didn’t saddle someone else with the job of breaking the news about Tony. He said: "We have to tell Karl his brother is dead. Tell him to come down." Also, he only wanted the SWAT team wounded and not killed.
Whether it’s enough to cut him or not remains to be seen. If it’s not, then fine.