During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
43110: Honestly, it's not an emotional thing for me. I just know when it's time to cut my losses and move on: I put everything about Babcock on the table and addressed everything regarding his wife as well as how I felt about it. If I argued in his favor I'd be repeating myself and since I'm already bad at arguing and going against a guy with way more street cred then me, I'm not going to change any minds and will just waste everybody's time. I've basically shot my credibility to hell with that effortpost and as such, I may as well give up and not open myself up to any further scrutiny.
V
Oh forgot to ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
those guys.
Also, calm down Fried. Don't get worked up, this is a forum made for fun not for people to get emotional and aggressive. The reason we started abstaining was because he had been a clear-cut keeper until Ravok came and did the first ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
, obviously we won't just see that post and not say anything. Don't accuse people of bandwagooning alright.
You've made some great proposals, let's not break that. Once again, this isn't a job, this is merely a hobby, something we do for fun. One candidate disapproved by one user is nothing. You can leave if you want, maybe you just need a small break before coming back again, I don't know, but still this is just a free-time activity, a hobby, nothing serious like a job, and therefore don't take this thread too seriously. You haven't lost any "credibility" if you're worrying about that.
Edited by MenInGreyToBlak on Jul 19th 2018 at 9:34:58 PM
Nobody is scrutinizing you, and I doubt people think your credibility is shot, you have contributed and people do think what you say matters on the topic of the guy you posted. THAT's why people want to hear what you have to say, others opinions matter just as much on the topic of E Ps. If you don't want to be on the thread it's your choice, it's not a career, but what you have had to say in the past for whether or not villains count mattered then and it does now.
Edited by Knack on Jul 19th 2018 at 12:31:31 PM
You haven't shot anything. It sounds like a debatable point and there's no reason to feel anything. We just wanted some clarification on an issue that sounds mitigating. IT doesn't matter to me that Ravok or anyone else said it.
Foreign Troper
While I also think that you are overreacting a little here Fried, there is SOME truth to what you say. It's not an accusation or anything, just an observation from my point of view. Some people do indeed seem to lay more weight on the opinion of certain people than on that of others.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, no credibility is shot. You laid everything out there, but just didn't think it was mitigating; someone else disagreed. Nobody did anything wrong.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@Forenperser Though it is an understandable concern, if a person introduces an argument that wasn't addressed then people are going to want clarification to guarantee a villain isn't voted up by accident, not saying it would be for Stewart but clarification for any argument brought up is important. Again, understandable but I do not think it is much of a situation.
Edited by Knack on Jul 19th 2018 at 12:44:54 PM
Okay, okay, I'm taking back everything I just said. I'm reclaiming the discussion dates I gave up, will restore the effortpost I deleted, and... might step away for a bit before coming back and properly arguing my candidate's case. I'm not in a good spot right now regarding emotions and whatnot and should probably take a break before humiliating myself even further.
And a sincere apology to Ravok. He didn't do anything wrong and it's all entirely my fault that a healthy disagreement turned into an embarrassing shitstorm.
all good. I reserved them just in case you hopefully changed your mind and will happily hand them back to you.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, and on another topic? For Pokemon: Sun and Moon anime, unless something changes DRASTICALLY, there will be no CMs. Forget redeeming qualities, I'm not sure anyone's breached the baseline heinous standard, to say nothing of the relative standard.
EDIT: Though on that note, do we use the Japanese eps, or the English dubs, which can be MONTHS behind?
Edited by ACW on Jul 19th 2018 at 3:50:55 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I like to generally go by the Western release. It's the reason we waited on Jarvis (though I think we ended up putting him a month or so early when even the release of the English dub for him was late)
ACW: I guess I'm not surprised that no one counts in the Sun and Moon anime since every adaptation of the original Sun and Moon games seems to want to turn the downright vile Lusamine into a blameless victim of circumstance (Yeah, really horrible villains getting entirely undeserved sympathy/redemptions are a major pet peeve of mine, and speaking of which there's a discussion coming up a few weeks/months from now regarding exactly that which I'm not looking forward to in the slightest) and Fava's just a complete joke. Kind of funny that he still contributed enough to the heinous standard to get Dr. Yung knocked off the list, though.
Anyway, to make what amends I can, yes to everyone proposed on the last two pages, and I should get Stewart's effortpost re-written sometime tonight or tomorrow. I might just repost it as it's own post as opposed to updating the old one for convenience's sake.
Edited by FriedWarthog on Jul 19th 2018 at 1:01:56 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Fair point. Thing is, the subbed eps are SO easy to find, that honestly? I could go either way. Though anyway, the only villains we have so far are Faba (probably not heinous enough; has a Heel–Face Turn anyway); Lusamine (lack of agency; redeems herself); Team Skull (not heinous enough, yet anyway); Team Rocket (obviously don't count); any other one-shot villains aren't heinous enough.
Please remind me again why Game!Lusamine doesn't count?
Edited by ACW on Jul 19th 2018 at 4:03:15 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Agency issues, redemption, ETC. Not too hard to see why she doesn't count.
Goku Black
She has no agency and gets an Alas, Poor Villain defeat Along with the implication she'll eventually reform.
Edit: ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Edited by miraculous on Jul 19th 2018 at 1:07:52 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
With anime and manga, we've tended to go with two weeks after japanese release rather than western release. One Piece chapters, Promised Neverland chapters, Dragon Ball Super episodes, etc. Don't see anything wrong with taking the japanese release for the Pokémon anime.
The Unknown Unknown
I think it was because of moral agency. Nihilego poison.
EDIT:
Edited by erazor0707 on Jul 19th 2018 at 1:06:24 AM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
V
I gotta agree that villains who have Ass Pull redeeming qualities are worthless. One of the worst excuses I can think of is the excuse "My parents died bohoo" because it's just so stupid - why would someone become a mass murderer because their parents died? I get if said villain has other redeeming qualities, but if this is the only thing, it's stupid.
That would probably be a good excuse in reality, depends on the execution and how they act, if there is any implication beforehand etc. Like they became a murderer due to other villains, depends on a case by case basis. That said, a case of the type of villain who isn't good as a result of a "redeeming" characteristic is Tobi. Not remotely proportionate to attempting to exterminate life but is sympathetic due to "My girlfriend died" and each of the characters act like it's sympathetic. Hopper though is significantly more understandable, yeah it's a single line of dialogue but though he is a jerk to his brother he doesn't do anything severe to him which seems reflective of his promise, whether or not people like said promise is up to them. Plus Lusamine is improved in the sun and moon anime, in the games was where she was redeemed when it wasn't deserved. Faba is hateable and cruel but isn't heinous enough. Either way, the games are more at fault than anything else since in the anime is a significantly alternative portrayal of Lusamine anyways.
@Scraggle BTW is it okay if I PM about Octopath Traveler? Curious as to what you will bring to discussion for that game.
Edited by Knack on Jul 19th 2018 at 1:45:34 AM
Goku Black
So moving on. Im reserving she Ra and the princesses of power. I'm totally open to a collab with anyone here.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I'd be in there!
Speaking of collabs? Me and Lighty are so snatching the revival of Star Wars: The Clone Wars.
@Knack: Er, go ahead, but me and Ravok are still playing through. Truthfully, we might not be ready to discuss by the time of July 27th... there's a lot we need to go through and quite a few potential keeps, which, combined with Ravok not really having a lot of free time on his hands?
I'll also call 3 Below.
Edited by Scraggle on Jul 19th 2018 at 3:09:26 AM
Foreign Troper
WHAT?!!!
You just saved my evening![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
Now on to a new series...
What's the Work?
Cheo-Yong is a Korean drama, named after its hero who is a police officer with a bit of an interesting affliction: he sees ghosts. Cheo-yong uses his talent in his work, but after a terrible event a few years ago, he's been extremely downcast. After meeting a perky young ghost in the hospital,he's given more help, and in the first two episodes, we see him and his friend detective Sun-Woo on the case against a string of disappearances...so let's talk the villain: the Man in Black.
Who is the Man in Black?
A man in black clothes with a short mustache, the Man is the head of an organ trafficking ring. In a word, he runs an abduction ring. Using a taxi driver, he has people abducted, knocked out and taken to a hospital where he's been bribing/paying the doctor to operate on them, kill them and take their organs to fulfill the orders.
now, when investigating the hospital, Cheo-yong is met by a little boy who asks him to find his mother....who resembles a female ghost he saw earlier. Getting disturbed, Cheo-yong and team manage to tail one of the traffickers to see him meeting with The Man in Black, who isn't happy the driver was followed. He proceeds to murder the driver and uses an innocent woman as a hostage, slitting her throat to force Cheo-yong to save her instead of pursuing him. Now, Cheo-yong, with the help of the ghost Na-young, manages to track things to the hospital where Sun-woo is investigating...it turns out that little boy's mother? She saw files on the doctor's computer she shouldn't have and the Man in Black murdered her for it, snapping her neck. Problem is, thanks to Cheo-yong busting his driver, he's short on an order for eyes...and decides to use her son instead, as he's the same type as her. Sun-woo defends him, only to be knocked out by the man in black who orders the doctor to start cutting her open, or he's going to simply murder him. Cheo-yong arrives in time and the Man tries to murder him and Sun-woo. In the ensuing fight? Cheo-yong and the Man in Black struggle, resulting in him falling on his own knife and dying there.
Mitigating Qualities?
No redeeming qualities whatsoever. He's an awful scumbag without a hint of redeeming features who kills tons of people to traffick their organs and tries to murder a child for his eyes. Now...Cheo-yong is a dark series and I have no fewer than 5 keepers, but they're all unique: two are serial killers with unique stories, one is a cult leader and serial rapist and one is a pharmacist who experimented on children, so an organ trafficking ring is pretty unique.
Conclusion?
I'd give a pretty strong yes.
Now who might volunteer to look at the infamous live-action Gundam film G-Saviour?
One guy I'm looking at is Garneaux since he wanted to destroy a formula, which was needed to help with a food crisis, just to maintain control over a large set of colonies. Also worth noting is the fact that his Reasonable Authority Figure image was a lie.
IPP Wick Check created.