During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
V
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Du Jum, P, and Megatron
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Du-Jum
The Predictor
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
The Emperor, he just got some scenes. Not really a personality to be here. (Sad, I like the idea of a flashback-only In-Universe ancient tyrant being listed as a CM).
Yeah, in one that actually would have feature him as a character.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 10th 2018 at 9:02:06 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Du-Jum.
Yes to Du-Jum.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
to Du-Jum
Du-Jum, Randall and Megatron
Emperor and Starscream
to Du-Jum
to Starscream
Aright, I've got a potential candidate from a video game called Hollow Knight.
What’s the Work?
Hollow Knight is a Metroidvania video game telling the story of knight on a quest to uncover the secrets of the long abandoned insect kingdom of Hallownest, whose depths draw in the adventurous and brave with its promise of treasures and answers to ancient mysteries. One of these mysteries includes my candidate, The Radiance.
Who Is She? What Has She Done?
The Radiance is the True Final Boss of the game and the culprit behind everything bad that has happened.
A powerful and destructive entity, The Radiance created a race of highly intelligent moths known as Wyrms to build an empire. However she deliberately kept her creations enslaved in her hive mind because she’s a Control Freak will wants the Wyrms to worship her for all eternity.
Then one day an individual broke free from The Radiance’s control and developed free will of his own and convinced the general populous to think independently from The Radiance. With that the people of Hollownest rebelled against The Radiance and accepted the Pale King as their new ruler admiring his intelligence and charisma and inventions from The Void.
The Radiance did not like how her subjects stopped worshiping her so she decided to create “The Infection” a horrific plague that she used to entering their minds and drained all of their memories away until their mind is nothing but a horrible, raging light. She spread “The Infection” throughout all of Hollownest causing thousands, if not millions, of innocents to die in slow agony, while those that survived are turned into zombie-like beings in constant agony.
The actions of The Radiance also resulted in the Pale King taking matters into his own hands by conducting experiments on his own subjects turning them into living containment vessels out of beings from the Void called Slades to seal away the Radiance and get rid of The Infection. After constant faliures, one vessel manages to succeed in sealing the Radiance inside its body and takes shelter in a giant cocoon referred as the Black Egg, earning the title "The Hollow Knight".
However, the Radiance's wasn’t willing to give up as presence she she starts to deteriorate The Hollow Knight’s mind turning him into a Tragic Monster in constant agony. It also causes the Black Egg to weaken allowing for her return. This causes the last of the surviving vessels, The Knight, to return to the kingdom to confront the Hollow Knight and put an end stop the Radiance once and for all, and in the Dream No More ending manages to do that.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities? Other Militating Factor?
Okay she was the one who created the Wyrms and ruled for many centuries before the Pale King usurped her. The thing is, they were basically enslaved by her and all the Pale King did was free them from her control. After that its clear that they chose the Pale King over The Radiance because he gave them free will. Plus being usurped doesn’t justify causing the agonizing deaths and fates of millions in the least.
As for Redeeming Qualities she has none. She only views her creations as tool that feed her ego and when they rebel against her The Radiance has absolutely no problem subjecting them to, The Infection causing agonizing death and fates of million all because they stopped worshiping her.
For other militating factors Hollow Knight is like Dark Souls in that the player has to uncover the lore and story on their own rather than have be told directly to them. So in similar cases like Pontiff Sulyvan and Aldrich, the NPCs tells them all about The Radiance, her personality, and the reason behind her actions, like The Infection.
When they finally face The Radiance herself she spouts out dialog like"...I WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN..."and "...THE LIGHT CANNOT BE CONSUMED…" showing herself as a tyrannical, egotistical, and petty monster who basically caused all this misery because she was usurp by a much fairer ruler, and the people would no longer cater to her every whim nor feed her ego.
Heinousness
Oh Yes! Every single bad thing that had and has happened in the game is the direct and indirect result of The Radiance’s actions and influence. The Infections, the thousands and possibly millions of deaths, and zombie-like states the survivors are in and the Hollow Knight’s tragic degenerated state are because of the Radiances, she show any remorse for all of this.
The only one that’s even remotely close to The Radiance atrocities is the Pale King who performed experiments on his own subject but he’s a Well-Intentioned Extremist whose actions are to try a combat the Radiance influence and finding a cure for The Infection so yeah The Radiance is partly responsible for their fates as well.
There’s also the Grimm trope and their leader who wants to perform a ritual by devouring the flames of the fallen kingdom of Hallownest, and manipulates the Knight into helping him succeed, but other that doesn’t really do anything that horrible and his rap sheet doesn’t even come close to that of The Radiance.
So in all The Radiance reigns supreme as the ultimate heinous standard of this game, so she gets a pass here!
Final Verdict
I’ll leave that to you guys!
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Not yet, but I really doubt Gods & Glory will discuss the Radiance as it seems to be more of a tournament based DLC rather than a story driven. Even so, it will most likely involve a whole new story like the Grimm Troupe, and its clear that the Radiance has died in the main game.
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 10th 2018 at 6:48:48 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Radiance
Out of curiosity, did the Gods and Glory update come out yet? Asking in case any new information about the Radiance might be released.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Same question
Also. Dood already said that I am going to do the write ups of Hector and Nessiah from Dept. Heaven.
Wait a minute. The Alternative Character Interpretation page says that she was actually turned into a Un-person and that there people that is actually loyal to her (not a disqualifier in most cases, but in games as minimalistic as those...)
What's up with her? Because being turned into a Un-person seems like a decent motivation even if Disproportionate and misguided.
BTW. Anyone have opiniones on how far a Freudian Excuse can work? A CM can have a truly Dark and Troubled Past and still qualify (see Ramsay and Griffith) but how much it can go?
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 10th 2018 at 11:54:13 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Mah Stace wants to propose the radiance.. But I guess I can say yeah
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
The reason for her Unperson was because what a dangerous threat she opposed to the Pale King and his subjects. She fed off the people feeding her ego and when they stopped worshipping her she subjugated them to horrific fate via The Infection. The Pale King's reasoning for doing this to her was to combat The Infection, that she was already spreading, before deciding to experiment on his own people.
Really he did, I never seen him make any announcements on the matter or reserved Hollow Knight. If he did and I'm missed it, I really apologize. Either way I'm pretty sure he can support my claims.
while her primary goal is to force the subjects of Hollownest to remember and worship her, the way she does it is completely horrifying. She enters their minds and drained all of their memories away until their mind is nothing but a horrible, raging light. She has done this to possibly millions, with either her victims dying in agony or turning into zombies. Not only is she aware of this she doesn't give a damn about all the suffering and death she has brought, as long as they remember and worship her that's all she cares about collateral damage be dammed.
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 10th 2018 at 7:09:14 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
So. She need worship to live and is still a bitch to her subjects? Leaning to a
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
@G-Editor I'm chatting with him on VW Discord and expressing some doubts regarding the Radiance and still express some doubts about her... Some people said that she did nothing wrong. And basically here's his point of view:
"I added the radiance from hollow knight as p.e on her page but i never formally brought her up. Here, now, i guess i will... I see her as PE, because while it is debated among fans whether she purposefully caused this infection that basically caused a zombie apocalypse scenario, if she didn't want it to happen, she would've stopped it easy. There are other better reasons but im tired. some people see her motives as sympathetic but they are not. She kept the population in a hivemind with no free will and when someone else gave them free will and turned away from her, she got super jealous. That's it. The aforementioned Someone Else (the Pale King) is pretty evil too but his acts were all to stop the Radiance from coming back and ending up just ending the world. I probably got some things wrong here but that is the gist of it."
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jul 11th 2018 at 12:01:35 AM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
to: Megatron , Du-jum, and the Radiance. But the Emperor and Starscream.
Taking both sides into account: yeah to the Radiance.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
To the Radiation.
I'll say yes to the Raditz.
Yeah she's definitely a yeah, no hard feelings by the way do not worry. If anything it's a Coincidence in Timing. I see some people saying the radiance did nothing wrong due to the pale king but that's just... wrong, she is purest evil. A different interpretation was that the infection was just a side effect of her anger from being sealed, but even if it was, she learned to take advantage of it and manipulate it to make it worse. So it doesn't matter.
Edited by MahStache on Jul 10th 2018 at 6:42:30 PM
Oh, goody, another subjected to the leather-pants treatment?
Yeah. People treat the Pale King like a monster himself and seem to conveniently forget that despite comitting some heinous crimes it was all to stop the Radiance. To be honest I was quite surprised she was never proposed earlier. Hollow Knight is quite popular.
