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There was an episode called The Jihad (in the 70s before that was a loaded term) where a prince (named Tchar) alien race called the Skorr stole an item of cultural importance to the Skorr, hoping they would give up their peacful ways and start a galaxy wide war in search of this item.

Now Tchar can fly and when confronted by Kirk, Spock and a team of alien specialists he disables the gravity in the room, so they can die like Skorr (which seems like he is giving them some respect, he may be negating his flight advantage here), also someone at the end of the episode says he is insane and will be cured of his madness (though given his pre planning, I personally do not think he is insane). So it seems like he is honorable or insane.

Do you think either of the Bolt brothers are worth proposing?

Edited by Overlord on Jul 7th 2018 at 4:46:42 AM

To The dream masters duo.

the Quantum Leap villains and the Dream Master duo.

Quantum Leap duo, Sliders duo.

@Overlord: From where I'm standing? Francis sounds like a keep. I'd support an EP for him.

Yea to the last from Sliders.

dream master and quantum villains.

New proposal, just to get it off my mind.

What's the Work?

Collateral is a 2004 action-thriller starring Jamie Foxx as Nice Guy taxi limo driver Max. Max lives a good but silent life, and has had some interesting clients, but none who are worthy to remember. The film also follows Vincent, portrayed by Tom Cruise, a sociopathic assassin who is going on a killing spree. Vincent becomes Max's client one night, and poses as some businessman or whatever, with his luxury suit and cool shades. It doesn't take long however until Max learns that there is something seriously wrong about this guy.

Now, obviously, the candidate is Vincent, and I've already talked about him with Lightysnake, and according to him, , so yeah, saved you some seconds of posting there, Lighty .

Who is Vincent? What does he do?

Vincent, the sociopathic assassin Big Bad and Villain Protagonist, is hired by mob boss Felix-Reyes Torrena to kill four witnesses. Vincent, as stated above, pretends to be a Nice Guy within the first minutes, but reveals his true nature when he drops a Mexican gangster down from his balcony onto Max's car. Max gets absolutely terrified, but Vincent forces him to continue driving. Vincent walks away for a while, but leaves his briefcase in Max's cab. A group of thugs come and grab it, and threaten to kill Max. Vincent comes in time and at first appears to surrender when they try killing him, only to kill the two of them. Before anyone says that "ohhh, he just saved Max's lif-" NO. And keep on reading and you'll see why this is purely pragmatic.

And now we come to the scene where I think Vincent should qualify as a Psycho for Hire rather than "simply doing his job". He tells Max to go to a jazz club, which a talented jazz musician plays at, and listen to the music. When the musicians are done playing, Vincent confronts the owner, as apparently he got to play with Miles Davis. He pretends to be a cool dude who wants to hang out, until he reveals the silencer and asks the man a question about Davis. If he gets it right, he survives, if wrong, he dies. He answers wrong, so the poor guy dies. Vincent is then asked by a remorseful max about whether or not he would have even spared the man if he answered right, Vincent shrugs it off and doesn't care.

Before the famous nightclub scene, a body of a man Vincent killed is shown. However, the nightclub shootout scene boosts Vincent's body count lots. In this scene, he kills nine entire people who were in his way, and, if I recall, he snapped one man's neck. If the previous acts weren't heinous enough, this definitely is.

And in the final scene(s) of the film, it is revealed that Vincent's final hired victim is a prosecutor who Max picked up at the beginning of the film, and that all of Max's nice interactions with Vincent were faked by the latter, Max was just a pawn for Vincent, as Vince was going to kill him, frame him for his killings, and pose it as a suicide. He also kills a security guy at the end while attempting to kill Max.

Heinousness?

Big Bad / Villain Protagonist; sets it.

Mitigating Factors?

There are four, which I'd like to subvert for you guys.

1: Abuse. Vincent states that he was abused by his father. Why is this not mitigating? Not only is it entirely offscreen, but it also doesn't justify his killings. Next.

2: Alas, Poor Villain. Popular opinion seems to be that Vince's death is sympathetic; it can be, but not enough to be disqualifying. You see, Vincent's death is very pragmatic. He is fatally wounded, has no ammunition left, and therefore he has no choice but to just die. He was fully intending on killing Max despite it, and was practically forced to accept defeat.

3: Respecting Max, Affably Evil. Shouldn't it be obvious at this point? Vince was planning on killing Max all along, and even threatened to kill his mother. Of course he doesn't respect him despite accepting defeat and saving his life, he simply had to have Max alive so that he could frame him.

4: Punch-Clock Villain, refusing to hurt innocents. Hell no. Never does Vince state that he hates killing innocents and only kills Asshole Victims, and he doesn't "just do his job" either, as evidenced by... the entire film. He tries framing Max, does a huge shootout in the nightclub scene which kills multiple people, kills a random security guy at the train station, and toys with his jazz club owner victim.

Conclusion

Although I'm gonna say a big, big, big , this might be a complex lengthy and fun discussion.

Also, Lighty, remember, you don't have to vote as I'm already counting yours

Astronomer, Valarr, Stiles, Cooley, and the Dream Walker duo.

Perhaps not, but I have a bit to say:

The film treats Vincent less pure evil and ultimately as messed up. He's a bad guy, but he's given complete sympathy as he dies and even shares a sympathetic moment with Max that fits in with the narrative of the film. Vincent's evil is done largely in the purview of his contract and those who get in his way, nothing else. While he is planning to kill Max, by the end, he seems to share a genuine and quiet respect with him.

This makes what Vincent does sound FAR worse than it is. He's going after his target and the people he kills are the man's guards, who Vincent methodically dispatches. There are multiple shots of panicked bystanders running around Vincent and he absolutely refuses to take shots through them. Vincent does not kill any person who isn't armed in that scene, and it shows he could've turned the club into a slaughterhouse, but doesn't, even though he's planning on killing Max and framing him anyways.

As for Vincent's death? He could've died cursing Max, trying still to kill him or anything else. Instead he calmly accepts it, lets Max sit with him and smiles after repeating the "someone dies on the metro" line.

Vincent is a clear cut non-keeper.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 7th 2018 at 6:26:21 AM

I've promised you both I'll get around to seeing that film and now's a good a time as any so I'll check back in in ~2 hours here and on MB to give my thoughts.

Lighty's essentially said everything I have to say. Vincent's final scene, in particular, takes him right out. No and no again to Vincent.

Having not seen the film myself and taking both views into account I guess I'll say Vincent.

Cooley

Gerald

Doctor

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 7th 2018 at 8:51:24 AM

Vincent.

Abstain on Vincent. Not sure if Vincent is a CM but it sounds like he would make a good Magnificent Bastard candidate.

No to Vincent.

Okay so I will do an EP on Francis Bolt:

Who is Francis Bolt? What has he done?

So a little back ground on the franchise, Due South was a buddy cop comedy from the 90s that featured a tough Chicago cop named Ray Vecchio was working with a polite Canadian mountie named Benton Fraser (who annoyed his superiors so much they sent him across the border to work in Chicago).

Francis (who is also a theoretical mathematician) and Randal Bolt (an explosive expert discharged from the US military after being suspected of blowing up a mess hall) were brothers in the same white nationalist paramilitary group, The Fathers of Confederation (that is kinda of funny in joke name if you are Canadian). In the episode All the Queen's Horses Randal posed as a documentary film maker following a group of mounties who were traveling to the US to do a equestrian show. Randal knocks out most of the mounties with knock out gas and hijacks the train, claiming he wants 10 million dollars to return it. After getting his money, Randall reveals a darker purpose, he plans to crash the train into a train carrying spent fuel rods, nuking Chicago and a large part of Illinois, saying the US government is an outlaw government that betrayed the Founding Fathers. Randal even kills his entire gang, even his own girl friend, so he won't have to share the ransom money. Anyway Fraser and Vecchio manage to stop the train, save Chicago and defeat Randal (Randal is captured by the mounties in a pretty awesome fun scene).

Later in the episode Red, White or Blue Randal is about to face trial, when Randal is visited by his brother Francis, who says the family believes in his cause and would not let him rot in jail, so he and their cousins are working on a plan to get Randal out there. Randal is happy at the prospect of freedom, but does not like his brother, who killed his pet dogs when they were children, to toughen him up. Francis kidnaps Fraser and Vecchio and reveals he was the one who devised the train hijacking plan in All the Queen's Horses and is pretty angry that they foiled it. Francis manages to hijack the trial, delivering Fraser and Vecchio to trial rigged with explosives. Randal and Francis take the judge and the jury hostage, wiring them with explosives and leaving them through out the court house , except for the judge who they throw out into the streets with explosives to show they mean business. They demand a helicopter to take them away or all the hostages die and Randal is using the court coverage to promote his far right opinions. Francis also leaves Fraser and Vecchio in the court room rigged with bombs that will explode if their heart rates go above a certain level.

However this whole rescue operation was a cover for a different crime, there are bonds being held in the court house as evidence for a different case and Francis intends to steal them. After stealing the bonds, Francis and Randal knock out their cousins, intending them to die in the explosion as well, so they do not have to share their take them. After escaping the court room, Fraser deduces the real crime, manages to take the bonds from the brothers and Vecchio the bonds with a bag filled with the defuse bombs. Fraser and Vecchio are playing keep away with the brothers and the bonds, getting into a shoot out with them. Randal is giving another far right screed, when Francis tells him to shut up, that they are thieves, not patriots and his ideology is ruining his criminal schemes. Fraser and Vecchio lure Francis and Randal to an elevator shaft with a bag in it, worried the bag may have explosives in it rather then the bonds, Francis asks Randal to grab it, which he refuses, wanting Francis to do it instead. Since neither of them trust each other, they compromise, both reach for the bag, but Fraser and Vecchio get the drop on them, capturing them and foiling this scheme.

Is he heinous by the standards of the work?

I would say so, most of the criminals in this show are petty thieves or have one or two murders, Francis masterminded a scheme to nuke Chicago and most of Illinois and even the scheme in the court house is nasty, even if it is not as bad the attempting nuking.

Any Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

No Freudian Excuse, his far right ideology is just cover for his criminal schemes, he doesn't believe in it like his brother seems to.

The only person he may care about is his brother, but the fact that this recuse operation was a cover for a different crime, the fact that he spent most of his time sniping at his brother and arguing with him, makes me question whether he loves him. He calls his brother a genius, but that just means he admires his skills as an explosive expert. The fact Francis was willing to kill his own cousins makes me doubt he cares about family.

There is a fair amount of comedy in this show, but the Bolt brothers are treated seriously.

Final Verdict?

I think he counts.

I'll vote yes on Vincent and Francis Bolt

Francis.

I think I have stalled this Effort Post for long enough, I really hope that this once and for all clears the confusion in regards to Nessiah.

Well, ladies and gentlemen... this is gonna be a long one.

Let's get this show on the road!

What’s the Work?

Riviera The Promised Land, the very first episode of the Dept. Heaven series. Released on the Wonderswan Color, Gameboy Advance and Playstation Portable. (Though funnily enough it was originally a one-shot game.)

Compared to the other Dept. Heaven games, while this game has its serious moments. Its still a lot more light hearted and comedic than the rest. Which for me is quite a breath of fresh air.

Let's first go over the game's backstory which has some stuff which has some relevant stuff in regards to the candidate in question.

In the setting of the series, there are 2 places which are kinda like the equivalent of Heaven and Hell. First there is Asgard the realm of the gods, a place that even though at first it seems to be ruled by pure cold order. The people who live there, the Humanoids are still basically normal people with their own inner thoughts and feelings. Different from the Humanoids though are the Angels, which are the main military forces of Asgard. They are basically blank slate with little to no emotion or self-awareness... But outside stimuli can cause them to develop them.

Second is Utgard (Also referred to just as The Underworld in other games and called Niflheim in some fantranslations.) a place of ever expanding chaos where demons and wild monsters live. The demons have somewhat of a ruling class where the strong ones gain control of the weak ones, but there is always constant fighting for power. (Though in Riviera it is shown that some of the weaker demons have no interesting in fighting at all.)

Then there is the stuff that is in the middle so to speak called the Surface Worlds, which are basically places were the mortals live.

1000 Years ago before the events of the game, there was a great war between Asgard and Utgard known as Ragnarok.

At first, the attacks of Utgard were very disorganized and the forces of Asgard could take them out fairly easily... But as time went on, their attacks became more and more devastating.

And so, the gods of Asgard made a desperate choice. They out of their own essence created beings called the Grim Angels. Black winged angels with incredible power. They are basically living weapons, yet they themselves wield special weapons called Diviners. In order to wield a Diviner, a Grim Angel must sacrifice a part of themselves. (Whether it be something like a part of their body or even emotions.)

The Grim Angels were deployed in battle, and the forces of Asgard managed to win the war... But it came at a great cost. After the war was won, the game's main setting Riviera. Which at that point was part of Utgard (With its inhabitants the sprites being used as slaves by the demons) was purified and turned into a surface world. The gods sealed what was left of their power in Riviera and disappeared.

And due to the Grim Angels having a rather short lifespan (Though I dont think it is specified how short) they are put into a sort of stasis and sealed in a mausoleum to be awakened when needed again.

In absence of the gods, a council of 7 humanoids named the Magi was formed. They wear magic cloaks given to them by the gods before their disappearence that makes their lifespan border on immortality.

To the public of Asgard, they appear to have completely lost their individuality and seem to act as one... But that is pretty much a facade as behind the scenes they are constantly fighting for power and backstabbing each other.

By the time the game takes place, many demons start to appear in Riviera. There is the rising possibility that Riviera might be turning into another Utgard. So, 2 Grim Angels are awakened from their slumber and are sended into a mission to activate the power of the gods sealed in Riviera known as "The Retribution"

One of those Grim Angels is Ein, the game's protagonist. (He gived his wings in exchange for his Diviner, Einherjar.) Who has his doubts in whether or not using The Retribution is the right thing, as using it has the high chance of destroying Riviera entirely. While Ein's familiar Rose has similar feels in regards to the mission to him. The other Grim Angel, Ledah. On the other hand is only focused in carrying out the mission. (Ledah intentionally gave away his emotions in exchange for his Diviner, Lorelei. Thinking that emotions would get in the way of his missions.)

At the end of the game's first chapter, while travelling through Heaven's Gate (The place which is the link between Asgard the various Surface Worlds) Ein gets separated from Ledah and Rose and arrives at a village in Riviera with amnesia.

By the time Ein recovers his memories, he decides to just say "Screw it!" to the mission and find a way to save Riviera without using The Retribution.

Later in the game, Ein and his new friends find out that the real mastermind behind the whole thing is none other than the one who sent Ein and Ledah on the mission in the first place...

Hector, one of the 7 Magi.

Who Is He?

As said before, Hector is a member of the Council Of The 7 Magi. And the only one whose name is actually known. While apart from their backstabbing, The core personalities of the other Magi has never been revealed. But Hector is described in side materials as "The most ambitious" of the bunch.

When he appears to Ein, Rose and Ledah. He appears under the facade of a Well Intentioned Extremist... But later on the story it is clear he is nothing but a power hungry bastard that wants to become a god.

What Has He Done?

Even in his Well Intentioned Extremist facade, he still comes off as quite the jerkass early on the story. As he considers the demon problem in Riviera to be a lost cause. And when Ein goes missing at the end of the game's first chapter. He express little to no concern for him, calling him a "Useless Fool."

Hector's real goal in Riviera is to awaken an entity called Seth that can only be awakened by offering sacrificed souls. Then to take her power and become a god.

During the events of the game's 2nd chapter, he sends Malice to gather the souls of the Arcs. A race of people that are descendants of the demons, but decided to choose a peaceful life instead. With the Sole Survivor being one of the playable characters, Serene.

In the game's 6th Chapter, it is revealed that Hector had Malice resurrect the Accursed. The ones who were causing the demon-related problems Riviera. All just so he could collect enough souls to resurrect Seth.

During the game's final chapter, only 2 more souls are needed for Seth's resurrection. And in that moment just as Ein and his friends arrive to stop him, Malice willingly offers herself as a sacrifice and takes hostage the heroine who has the highest Relationship Values wit Ein. Hector then kills Malice and the heroine who was captured and resurrects Seth.

After that, he reveals that Malice was not an actual Grim Angel but rather... An artificial one. He then mocks Malice for believing that she was an actual Grim Angel and in his own words. "I'm sure she was happy to be my puppet. Because otherwise, a failure such as her would have been completely useless"

Hector then fuses with Seth, creating a Humanoid Abomination known as Seth-Ra. Hector seemingly achieved his wish of becoming a god and create a new world... But despite having obtained such power, Ein and his friends manage to kill Seth-Ra. And so, Hector's amibtions finally came to an end.

Now here are his crimes that are only revealed in side-materials and in the other Dept. Heaven games.

Behind the scenes, Hector is doing experiments in order to create Artificial Grim Angels to serve as his soldiers. And if a certain Drama CD is to be believed, Those experiments are NOT pretty. All 3 of the Artificial Grim Angels that appear in the different game have a serial number.

The one who appears in Yggdra Union is No. 367. (She is also the only one who does not seem to have a name of her own, she is only called by her serial number)

The one who appears in Knights In The Nightmare, Primea. Is No. 549. (Primea is not actually her real name, its actually a codename. Her real name is never revealed.)

And finally, the one who appears in Riviera itself (And also the very last one he created). Who serves as Hector's Dragon. Malice Ructor, No. 1132. (The only one whose full backstory is revealed, altrough in a Drama CD rather than on the game itself) Who used to be part of a noble Humanoid family of Asgard, when she was picked as a test subject after her family collapsed. Hector had his servants erase all records of her existence so nobody suspects a thing. When the experimentation begins and Malice is clearly in pain, Hector says "What a nice expression."

If those serial numbers are anything to go by, it seems he made hell lot of them. (Also, I am I the only one who finds it kinda off that all of his Artificial Grim Angels are... young girls?)

Now before I move on with the other sections, I have to mention something very important.

Despite what everyone thinks, Hector has absolutely nothing to do with another Dept. Heaven villain Nessiah. That whole thing of Nessiah being a pacifist and Hector torturing him, is nothing but a complete LIE made up by Nessiah's Draco In Leather Pants-following. (And I imagine the Yaoi Fangirls as well to some extent.)

Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?

Hector has NOTHING that even resembles a Freudian Excuse, he is just a power hungry bastard with delusions of godhood.

Though, there is a very easy-to-miss detail in Riviera that I guess kinda... sorta qualifies as a Redeeming Quality? And that is...

In the game's final chapter, there is a somewhat hidden area called Granada Fortress. Whose description in the menu reads... "The fort where Hector repelled the demon attack during Ragnarok. It still bears scars from the battle."

Which I guess implies that before he became a Magi, he helped Asgard during the Ragnarok before the Grim Angels came into the picture.

This piece of information is only mentioned in the menu just before entering that area, Hector himself never mentions it.

But that was 1000 years ago, and I imagine that if Hector was actually a good person at one point. That side of him is completely gone by now.

Heinousness/Is he heinous by the standards of the story?

The other villains in Riviera include...

The Accursed, the demonic beings that are the source of Riviera's demon problem. But they have very little screentime.

Ledah, who is determined in carrying out the mission but lets Ein go once he realises that Hector is the one behind things.

And finally Malice, Hector's Dragon. Who while rather sadistic, haughty and did quite a few of Hector's dirty work in the game, genuinely believes that Hector will make the world a better place. Being fooled by his Well-Intentioned Extremist facade.

Final Verdict

I leave it up to you.

Edited by dood9780 on Jul 7th 2018 at 8:03:39 AM

Abstain on Vincent. Haven't seen Collateral in a while, and this is a clear case where I need to rewatch the film and form my own opinion on him.

Slight for Francis Bolt.

Haven't been on the forum much since I've been busy working on stories and reading shiz (not to mention I don't have time to keep up when there have been at least seven effortposts per day this week). I may only pop up here and there when I have a proposal or when it's my time to discuss someone I have listed on the Discussion Dates page.

And on that note, it's gonna be some time before I finish the Wings of Fire series, so I won't have any EPs ready by this Tuesday as planned.

And on another note, I may have an EP later tonight from an awful monster movie I used to watch a lot as a teenager.

Hector. The fact that he created several Grim Angels stopped being Offscreen Villainy when we see several of them in The 'Verse and even without that. He does certainly push the Heinous Standard enough in his Lighter and Softer game.

Also. Nessiah, who we put on wait due to not be sure of his relationship with Hector.

Hector and Nessiah

Tenative on Francis Bolt.

Hector.

Yes to Bolt, Hector and Nessiah then

to the Dept. Heaven duo now that things seem to have been cleared up.

Wasn't there some sort of Japan-only artbook that had some background information on the Dept. Heaven series? I seem to recall that that was supposedly where the Nessiah background information came from, though don't take my word for it.