Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Was the Colonel from War For The Planet Of The Apes discussed already while I was away? If so, then I'll throw in a absolute, definite for him. While I think he went way beyond what his Freudian Excuse justified, he had a more convincing pretense of altruism than Koba did, had some Pet the Dog moments like talking to Caesar like a Worthy Opponent and ultimately listening to Caesar's request to give the slave apes food and water (though it's coupled with a Kick the Dog when he denies water or food to Caesar), he quite clearly loved his son enough that it still came through as he was recalling his Mercy Kill of him, and of course that death scene...so much Cry for the Devil there.

Koba's still the most evil character in this narrative, even in his brief cameos in this film!

edited 28th Jul '17 2:01:22 PM by ANewMan

A page or 2 ago; he doesn't count.

So, shall I also change the bit for Rodrigo to just not heinous enough?

edited 28th Jul '17 2:02:30 PM by ACW

Yes, Woody Harrison's unnamed colonel is not this trope.

He loved his son and thinks he's doing the best for humanity.

Also, his death scene. Now, I don't usually put much stock in a hero sparing a villain when it comes to qualifying, but I feel it's appropriate here. As Scraggle said, Koba's death, with Caesar declaring that he is "no ape", is a great contrast with the kindness he showed the Colonel when he saw his suffering, how they were Not So Different etc.

And Koba still counts. While mentioned, no one talks about him with any sort of sentiment or warm fuzzy feelings. The surviving characters see him as more of a malevolent ghost - and sometimes this is almost literal.

As for Gomadi, I don't think I voted the first time and I won't vote this time, but it's always interesting when the original proposer challenges their own candidate.

The suggestion of ACW to add that tidbit on moral agency - which everyone is free to disagree with - and altering the reason ol' Rodrigo shouldn't be talked about anymore.

I think that's everything I wish to comment on right now. War was a good film and so was Dunkirk.

...

Fine, if you wanna PM me about Dunkirk, go ahead.

Ok I think we got enough yes votes for ACW's rule proposal change.

Do we have anymore votes for Biara?

Surprised that ACW of all people got a post thumped.

A CM whose approval seemed wrong to me or was underwhelming? I'd say Ahmanet even without seeing the movie because she wasn't being made up to be a straight CM from what I learned and that it's because of botched storytelling that she was, so it wasn't really earned.

Going with someone I am familiar with is a little harder to do. It seemed like Ma-Ma was supposed to be tragic enough not to count I suppose, but they ended up making her so bad that her backstory wasn't enough to keep her from qualifying. I guess?

edited 28th Jul '17 2:40:36 PM by futuremoviewriter

To be fair, thumps can happen from anyone. This thread has gone off-topic way too much. Veterans have made rude statements too. Nobody is perfect. A rule of thumb is this; we're all users who can make mistakes. Don't hold anyone in a higher light than another and respect everyone.

Anyway, yes to the moral agency rule change(or was that a clarification?).

Also agreed we should re-open the discussion the AC II characters. There's some issues here. Especially since our criteria has changed. We shouldn't try to grandfather in examples, after all.

It's more of an explanation for the rule; terminology doesn't matter

And as for reopening discussion: The information does sound new, and we did, after all, end up re-discussing and allowing Scar.

As for the thump, I was just saying RIP to June Foray; methinks the stick got a little overactive

There are quite a number of Scars in fiction. Which one do you mean?

Scar, from The Lion King.

So now that we're done talking about Kodai are we now going to discuss Savonarola and see if he has to cut or kept thanks to the points Emperors gave

edited 28th Jul '17 2:57:59 PM by G-Editor

Let's. I'm SLIGHTLY leaning keep. What say you?

You have got to be joking. Someone felt that a guy who tries to have his family murdered all just because he is not in charge and dosent care about anyone else but himself, does not qualify. Unbelievable.

Now Biara has been proposed for 7 hours straight. Every two hours I kindly remind the thread asking for more votes on her, and every time, that gets ignored, even though the candidate is up for discussion.

edited 28th Jul '17 2:57:23 PM by hopeshalllive

here the link to the video containing the story about the DLC Savonarola debut in

You know what? Cut Savonarola. I've seen no good evidence as to why he should stay.

Some people thought Scar didn't qualify and he was cut back in the early days of the thread. Eventually someone made a good case for him and then he got put up on the page. This thread has had an evolution in standards and purpose over the years and there's no reason to act incredulous and upset over an overturned decision from years ago. No reason to act morally outraged about it or anything.

Anyway I'll agree with cutting Savonarola, I was always kind of on the fence about him.

I am glad seeing Savonarola is getting cut . If anybody qualified in AC II, it would be Rodrigo, but AC II heinous standard is so, so high plus he is on the Never Again list. I would EP him as I have new evidence, I don't want to risk opening can of worms.

If it's COMPLETELY new evidence, that you're SURE has never been brought up, that MIGHT be okay.

if you have any new evidence on the bastard I'd say go ahead and do it

edited 28th Jul '17 3:20:05 PM by G-Editor

So I'll do all this tomorrow:

Markus Jung image Cut Savonarola FAQ change; reason for Rodrigo

Here is the draft for the crimson queen. My sincere apologies for the delay.

The Crimson Queen is the Big Bad of Crimson and Crimson II. Masquerading as a messiah, and a kindly leader to lead humanity into a new golden age, her first act upon gaining the throne is to wipe out the elders who have found a solution to humanity’s breeding problems. She also locks up her predecessor in a crimson cage to be tortured for years, taking pleasure in the sound of his screams. Told by her master that she will be defiled by the world, she enacts a plan to exterminate the last of humanity. She Mind Rape's her loyal court into killing themselves in front of their loved ones, condemning them to a Fate Worse Than Death as their souls are locked out of heaven forever. When humanity gathers together to oppose her upon seeing her true nature, the queen sends her most loyal knights across the land to kill everything they come across. When all else fails, the Queen attempts to fuse the mortal world and hell together to rule over all that remains. In Crimson II she holds the monastery she is reborn into under mind control, and drives the mother superior and anyone else who suspects her true identity into insanity. When ta group of the nuns attempt to imprison her again, the Queen tries to murder every single one of them.

edited 28th Jul '17 3:40:52 PM by Atlantis1930

Please add here, but first please see if that can't be trimmed a bit.

I was just surprised that Scar wasant considered a CM at one point. I wasant outraged, just stunned.

Now my Biara post has not been talked about for 7, nearly 8 hours. What is it with ignoring this candidate?

Hate to be more of a pain than I've already been ACW, but apparently the draft page is locked?

I still doubt he will qualify, because other Templars are horrible people as well, but if you guys pressure me, fine.

Who is Rodrigo Borgia?

He is a Grandmaster of the Templar Order during Renaissance. He is also the Pope.

What has he done?

In the beggining of the game, he is not the Pope and as a Grandmaster of the Templar Order, he imprisons your father and brothers. Your father is an Assassin. He has all three executed and one of the two brothers is a child. He later states he didn't have to execute your brothers but he wanted to prove a point. Rodrigo later conspired to take down the leader of Florence, Lorenzo de' Medici, and his brother Giuliano so that he could have control over Florence. It does result in Giuliano's death. All the Pazzi conspirators get killed and the sole survivor, Jacopo Pazzi, gets killed by Rodrigo while he begs for mercy. Later, in Venice Rodrigo has Carlo Grimaldi murder the Doge of Venice. Later, in a Lineage DLC, Rodrigo has Tomas de Torqumada wipe out all the Spanish Assassins. Finally, in the game Rodrigo becomes the Pope. In his asssassination visual it is said that and shown in flashback that he had anyone who opposed him brutally tortured or if he was in a "good mood" poisoned. Finally, when Ezio reaches him, they get into a fist fight and Ezio wins and humaliated Rodrigo asks for death with Ezio replying "Killing you will not bring my family back." He walks away. In the sequel, Brotherhood Rodrigo has been basically reduced to a shell and all he does is try to maintain his monopoly over Rome. However, when his son Cesare becomes more powerful, Rodrigo attempts to have him poisoned before Cesare doing this to him.

Redeeming qualities?

Absolutely none. It is said that Borgia era was a dark age of the Templar order and one of the main themes of AC II is that Templars strayed away from their Well-Intentioned ideals and got consumed with power.

Heinous?

Now that is indeed a problem. I will list the actions of all the other Templars and what they do without Borgia's involvment.

Marco Barbarigo - he ordered his friend Dante Moro to be assassinated since Marco lusted after his wife. When Dante survives the attempt but is brain-damaged, Marco grabs his wife for himself against her will and keeps Dante as his personal bodyguard.

Carlo Grimaldi - discovered that a daughter of a poweful politician fell in love with a servant and had them tricked into believing they could escape on a boat but when they reach it, he has the lover killed.

Pazzi family - attempted to assassinate the Medici. While Borgia ordered it, they showed sadism and happiness while doing it. The son is also said to sexually assault women.

Orsi brothers - kill one man and live his body naked on the streets. They later kidnap two children and threaten to kill them unless Ezio gives them Apple of Eden.

Finally, your friend Lorenzo who is not a Templar is stated to have imprisoned anybody associated with the Pazzi family.

Conclusion

I think he would be an easy keep in other works, but do you see how high the AC II standard is with villains I listed?

edited 28th Jul '17 3:45:03 PM by emperors

Atlantis: Try again in a few minutes (and if that doesn't work, just put it here for the time being). Please don't forget potholes.

As for Rodrigo, I'm actually leaning SLIGHTLY yes. It seems like he kills the most people. It is tough though.

edited 28th Jul '17 3:46:13 PM by ACW