Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Bishop

Bishop

Oaks

edited 17th Feb '17 5:01:02 PM by G-Editor

SO I just thought maybe I could improve slightly on Michael Sutton's writeup. Nothing big just a few minor edits:

Michael Sutton from season 3's "The Snare" has become bored with hunting animals, and so he decides to start Hunting the Most Dangerous Game. He finds whatever men he can and invites them over to his own island, only to drug them to sleep and put them through deadly obstacles as he hunts them down, succeeding at least 5 times, and seeing it all as a "game." He intends to do the same to David Banner. It's implied that the reason he's so successful is because he doesn't play fair, a fact David calls him out on, insisting that a real hunter plays fair and that all Sutton's about is winning. When Sutton discovers David's inner beast, he becomes obsessed with it and tortures David with the intent of bringing it out and killing it, only to kill himself by accident. At the end of the episode, it turns out even in death Sutton can't stand losing, as it's revealed he booby trapped David's escape boat in preparation for the hero's victory. Ruthless, psychotic, and a cheater at his own game, Michael Sutton was unlike any other villain on the show, who were motivated by either tragedy or simple financial gain.

An easy 'Yes' to Bishop. Handily one of the most evil characters proposed thus far this year (Sure it's only February, but still).

Aaaanywho, seeing as Tim Powers seems to LOVE himself a pure evil villain, I've got ANOTHER Keeper here. 4 novels with 4 Keepers. Huh. >_>

Luckily, the next one I'm reading already has a CM listed, so this'll be the last Powers' baddie for the next couple days.

Who is he?

Sherman Oaks is one of the two main antagonists of Expiration Date, the sort-of sequel to Last Call.

In this novel, ghosts exist. They are psychic manifestations though, rather than flat-out spirits and such, and they also have a rather....strange thing about them: If you inhale one into you by using a special ability, you gain said ghost's memories plus extra years to your own life. Note that the ghosts are still sentient, if most are a bit...loopy, so being inhaled is portrayed as an And I Must Scream situation.

Now, there are people who capture these ghosts, then sell them on the black market as a sort of super drug. And Oaks? He's one of the top acquirers of these....delicacies.

What has he done?

Oaks is....really old, with his exact age being unknown, but he is well above 120 years old at the least, and has kept himself alive by constantly inhaling ghosts of men, women, and children into himself.

One of Oaks' favorite methods is to roam hospitals, especially military ones, then corner the cowering ghosts of recently deceased patients before either inhaling them, or trapping them in his bottles to sell later on the black market.

Another thing Oaks does in hospitals is inhale the psychic energy given off by babies as they are being born. These fragments of their psyche are supposed to temporarily fly out of them due to the massive stress of being born, then fly back into them after a few moments. When Oaks inhales these fragments, the babies grow up with a chunk of the personality and psyche missing, and they will often end up having severe emotional issues and/or sociopathy long into adulthood (As seen by the other Big Bad, Loretta deLarava, who is implied to only be as bad as she is because Oaks stole her fragments when she was a newborn).

Oh, and Oaks isn't restricted to just inhaling already dead ghosts. He is perfectly able and willing to kill people whose ghosts he wants, then suck in the ghosts afterwards. He tries this on both Harry Houdini (Yes, THAT Houdini) and Thomas Edison (Yes, THAT Edison), and while he succeeds in killing Houdini, the magician took extra precautions to protect his ghost from being absorbed, leaving Oaks enraged.

When he attempted the same on Edison, Oaks was poisoned by a rotten ghost Edison tricked him into inhaling, and this "jams up" his ability to inhale ghosts any longer.

With no way to inhale ghosts, Oaks gets weaker and weaker, allowing the hella ton of those he has devoured to finally begin breaking free of the horrible fate he has bestowed upon them, and, in a last ditch effort to keep the ghosts from escaping and make him look like a buffoon, Oaks tries to inject a poisonous ghost directly into his heart, but this oddly fails, succeeding only in blowing off his left arm and giving him amnesia.

Luckily for Oaks, this also fixed his inhalation problem, and as soon as he awakens, he goes right back to devouring and hunting ghosts, as despite not remembering his past, he still has the same desire for immortality and power.

Fast forward three years, and Oaks is once more a major distributor of ghosts, having well over a thousand bottles tucked away in his safe house (Note that while some of these would have more than one ghost in each, that's still a LOT of ghosts), and he himself has "thousands of voices inside him".

Now, Oaks is all fine and dandy, until he catches the scent of a very powerful ghost nearby (It later turns out to be Edison's ghost, which had been tucked away in a bottle until now), and, tracing it to a suburban home, Oaks breaks in, ties up the husband and wife residing there, then tortures them to tell him where the ghost is, starting by slashing parts of their body, then ripping out their teeth, until finally carving out their eyes. He realized about then that they were already dead and stalked off.

Later learning that the couple's son, Kootie, has the ghost, Oaks begins following the boy, planning to kill him then inhale Edison's ghost as the "ultimate high", as is SO obsessed with it, that he sells off his entire stash of bottled ghosts and neglects much inhaling of any other types until he can get his hands on Edison.

Tracking down Kootie, Oaks casts an illusion to get his hand on the boy, then attempts to brutally stab him to death before Edison's ghost takes control of Kootie's body and shoves another rotten ghost into Oaks, jamming him up once again.

Oaks pursues a now-fleeing Kootie/Edison, and, though losing them after opening fire on two police officers who tried to halt him, Oaks tracks the duo down once more, cornering them along with other friends with a shotgun.

Demanding for Edison to tell him how to rid himself of the rotten ghost without having to risk blowing off another limb, as he is nearly completely overrun by his thousands of victims, Oaks makes big promises to them, claiming that as soon as he's cured, he'll leave them alone and just go kill a nearby civilian then devour their ghost to get his strength back. Edison doesn't trust him at all (Rightly so), however still spills the beans after being mocked into it by Oaks (Edison's kinda egotistical XD).

Though curing himself, Oaks, along with everyone present, is immediately captured by deLarava, who wants to use them all in a plan to basically rid herself of any remorse she feels for past and any future victims, and Oaks spends most of the rest of the novel trying to weasel his way out of his position and kill basically everyone present then absorb their ghosts.

Luckily, Oaks is basically half-dead with all the ghosts near breaking out, and bumbles most of his chances, until, in the end, when he is hanging off the edge of a cliff after attacking some of our heroes, he pathetically begs for his life, promising youth and power to whoever pulls him up. One of our heroes recognizes the BS he is spouting, then fully flings him off the cliff, and the last they hear of Oaks is thousands of screams echoing as he falls to his death.

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?

Ah, no. Much like other Tim Powers baddies, Oaks is just a slimy scumbag who lusts for immortality, and is willing to damn thousands of people to eternal purgatory just to keep himself alive.

Now, inhaling ghosts is likened to taking a drug, and Oaks DOES act like a junkie going through withdrawal while "jammed up" and the thousands of ghosts are trying to break free, twitching and mumbling to himself, but here's the thing: Oaks enjoys hurting people and inhaling ghosts, not just out of an uncontrollable addiction, but because he likes it in a non-druggy way, and he shows complete agency throughout the novel, so he's not just some stuttering wreck so obsessed with "getting his fix" that he commits more crimes than usual. If anything, his crimes are worse when he's not being oivertwhelmed by the ghosts, as he's capable of rational thought easier without tons of voices all screaming in agony to be let out.

I'd also just like to go on record and say that, if it came down to having to either devour ghosts of innocents and condemn them to torment, or go insane/kill oneself, I'm safely assuming that most upstanding folks would pick the latter.

Made even more damning is that Oaks IS willing to die/kill himself, just not for altruistic reasons.

"Holy crap, these ghosts are gonna painfully overrun me then turn me into an undignified, insane fool! Nope, killing myself rather than suffer THAT humiliation!"

Compared to....

"Holy crap, if I don't keep ruining lives, killing people, and condemning ghosts, I'm gonna DIE? Screw that, I'm living forever!"

So, yeah, Oaks is just a selfish little sociopath who wants to live forever, who would rather kill himself instead of suffer humiliation, but in the same instance, won't do the same to cease the harming of innocents.

Heinousness?

While deLarava is herself a nasty piece of work, I'd still say Oaks surpasses her just because of the thousands he has devoured over his century or two of life, and even still, deLavada is an immensely powerful crime lord, whereas Oaks is just a dude. That's literally it.

Also to note is that, while inhaling ghosts is a "fad" on the street, with deLarava engaging in it quite a bit as well, Oaks is one of the primary suppliers of the stuff, and simultaneously has inhaled way more than any average, even above average, criminal might have.

So, all things considered, I'd say he's the worst in the novel. Even taking the VERY loose continuity with Last Call into account (A continuity which itself is kinda screwy, but still), Oaks is still handily bad enough, and zooms over the baseline.

Final Verdict?

Yet another Tim Powers' Keeper. As a side note, I LOVE this author.

edited 17th Feb '17 2:34:24 PM by Ravok

Oaks. I assume he gets drinks with Jacques on occasion.

Oaks sounds a yes.

So, I was able to take care of my weekend's project already

Oaks

to Bishop and Sherman Oaks.

Sherman Oaks

Alright... Before I get to my next few posts, I guess I'll take care of this astounding issue. Everyone, Skyrim.

What's the setting?

The Elder Scrolls universe is an epic fantasy video game series revolving around the history of Tamriel and the titular, mystic Elder Scrolls. The fifth installment in the series, Skyrim, takes place in the titular region two-hundred years after the events of Oblivion – an event known in-universe as the Oblivion Crisis – in the midst of a bloody civil war, political strife, and the machinations of the third Aldmeri Dominion – or the Thalmor. However, all the strife is suddenly put on hold when a much bigger threat suddenly returns... the dragons of old are suddenly returning to Skyrim, and a legendary hero known as the Dragonborn, a mortal capable of utilizing the power of the Thu'um and devouring the dragon's souls, sets out to stop the dragon menace after an ill-fated attack frees them from execution. The perpetrator of all the madness is none other than a dreaded dragon god known as the Eater of Worlds – Alduin.

Who is Alduin? What has he done?

Alduin is the Nordic aspect of Akatosh (the resident high god of the setting) and his self-proclaimed firstborn, designed by the Divines as the World-Eater; a being responsible for devouring each incarnation of existence so that a new one might take its place. However, Alduin tends to sate its own personal desires rather than actually properly attend to its duty. We see long before the events of Skyrim in an obscure text Alduin begin his consumption of the world... much earlier than he's supposed to. Alduin runs into resistance by the hand of the Leaper Devil King, who begs Alduin to stop and even tries to trick him, to little success. Alduin then figures out the Leaper and the “Greedy Man” have been repeatedly storing bits and bobs of the world away so that it may return every time Alduin devours it. Furious, Alduin devours the Leaper King and the rest of the world even as the Leaper pleads for mercy, and the Leaper is thus corrupted by Alduin into a being that would later become known as Mehrunes Dagon, a Daedric Prince and the being responsible for the Oblivion Crisis in the first place.

Anyways, come a deal of time later, Alduin is once again sent to dispatch Nirn to bring about the new world, but Alduin forsakes his role as the World-Eater and instead dominates what he is supposed to be destroying, enslaving mortal life to dragon-kind. Alduin and the dragons gave small portions of power to the vile Dragon Priests to wreak further atrocities and have himself be worshiped as a god before the mortals finally rose up against their dragon masters and initiated the Dragon War. This ended with a confrontation against Alduin himself by the hand of Felldir the Old utilizing one of the Elder Scrolls. Alduin is incapacitated by the Shout Dragonrend, and in rage, Alduin brutally kills one of Felldir's companions before Felldir banishes Alduin using the power of the Elder Scroll. Felldir's intent here was to strand Alduin out of time, but unfortunately, Felldir only succeeds in delaying the inevitable and accidentally warps Alduin centuries into the future, in the Fourth Era. Once more enraged, Alduin sets about to destroy Nirn in entirety – again, much earlier than intended.

Alduin begins his rampage by attacking the town of Helgen, where Ulfric Stormcloak and the Dragonborn are set to be executed. Alduin falls upon the town and razes it, killing dozens – many with his own claws and teeth – and thankfully, the Dragonborn manages to escape with their life. Alduin then sets about resurrecting his dragon followers by the many to wreak even further havoc in his stead all across Skyrim. One of these dragons is slain by the Dragonborn and they become consciously aware of their destiny as Dovahkiin, setting out to slay Alduin. The Dragonborn's next encounter comes near a town called Kynesgrove, where Alduin resurrects another dragon, sets him to “slay the mortals,” and flies off. The Dragonborn continues to quest, eventually getting the Elder Scroll and witnessing the events that led to Alduin being catapulted through time, learning Dragonrend in the process. Alduin then swoops down and attacks the Dragonborn on top the highest mountain in Skyrim, the Throat of the World, alongside the equally-ancient dragon Paarthunax. Ultimately, though, Alduin is driven off.

Alduin's act of cowardice in fleeing from the battle with the Dragonborn sews major seeds of doubt among his followers and his right-hand drake Odahviing eventually betrays Alduin and offers the Dragonborn a lift to the temple of Skuldafn, where the Dragonborn pursues Alduin to Sovngarde itself – the afterlife of Mundus. Alduin contents himself by devouring the souls of those in Sovngarde at his own leisure, granting ancient deceased warriors cause to fight with the Dragonborn in their final confrontation against Alduin. The climactic battle takes place and the Dragonborn ultimately ends up victorious, with Alduin being rent apart and his soul vanishing into some other plane to serve its duty in the role it is meant to when the proper time to devour the world comes.

Any mitigating factors?

These are where my only hesitations lie. Let's knock the two most obvious out of the way, first... the heinous standard and the nature of the dragons as a species. I say Alduin's definitely heinous enough both for the trope and by the standards of the series... all his other deeds aside, Alduin's omnicidal intentions and the fact he's apparently devoured the world times before puts him on his own level and devouring the souls of Sovngarde is an especially dickish move, both in-universe and out. In addition to this, him being responsible for the corruption of Mehrunes Dagon according to the Obscure Text means Alduin's indirectly responsible for all the carnage that occurs during the Oblivion Crisis... so ultimately, Alduin has a lot on his hands. Pass. For the nature of the dragons itself? Dragons lean a bit to Always Chaotic Evil, but the existence of dragons like Paarthunax and even Odahviing prove that a dragon is not necessarily beholden to its nature alone... it takes great effort to overpower a dragon's natural lust for destruction, but it can be done. Adding on to this? Alduin's a coward and a snake even for the standards of his species; dragons are honor-driven to an extent and Alduin ditching the battle with the Dragonborn and fleeing to Sovngarde is explicitly said to be a dishonorable move by the standards of dragon-kind and ultimately turns his otherwise loyal right-hand against him.

Now then... for Alduin's divine role. Elder Scrolls agency for godlike beings is tricky. Really, really tricky. Alduin's explicit role as a divine being is as the Eater of Worlds – Alduin's very nature is to destroy one incarnation of Nirn so that another can take its place. Even Paarthunax casts doubt on whether or not destroying Alduin is the right thing to do.

...and even this comes with some shred of doubt. Alduin is, by nature, an arrogant sadist. Alduin deliberately forsakes his role as a divine agent to conquer instead of destroy like he's supposed to. Even when he actually does get to trying to destroy Nirn in the Fourth Era, this comes with more than a few touchy bits; Alduin's still doing it much earlier than he's supposed to, the Dragonborn becomes active at the same time Alduin does – implying fate itself has other plans in store for Nirn – and Alduin seems mainly motivated by spite and a desire to assuage his wounded pride after being defied by mortals instead of simply following the role he was created to do. Even Paarthunax says that “I like this world” is still as good a reason as any to stop Alduin. Alduin's soul is kept alive at the end of the game, and it's for one purpose; so Alduin can actually serve the role he was meant to do in the future, because it is made extremely clear Alduin's been doing a piss-poor job at that and mainly aims to destroy and conquer at his own whim rather than conduct his divine duty.

Still, Elder Scrolls agency as a whole is tricky and as was mentioned, the metaphysics of the universe are boggling as can be. I'm not going to act like I'm an absolute expert on the series and the agency of these kinds of beings as a whole, but I will say judging from all the on-screen evidence we get of Alduin, there's as much evidence to suggest Alduin is just a petty prick of a god rather than a divine being doing its job. So, take that for what you will.

Conclusion?

To be quite frank, I've no real opinion on Alduin's qualification as a whole and I can't lie if I'm not still dubious. I may or may not have missed a detail that applies not only to Alduin but to every divine being in Mundus as a whole and I'd appreciate if someone shed some light on that, but Alduin's potential inclusion has bugged me for a long, long time. Foster some debate, people, and I point specifically to the people much more ingrained in Elder Scrolls mythology than me. Otherwise? Alduin's qualification or not lands in the hands of the thread.

Thoughts, all?

edited 17th Feb '17 11:40:13 PM by Scraggle

Alduin. Since he can choose to abandon his duty for world conquest and personal gain, and since dragons don't have to be evil, he has enough agency in my book to count.

I was afraid of Alduin's divine nature and intended status as a necessary force of destruction for the cycle of life on Nirn making discussing him pointless... but you know what? I'm feeling pretty confident in giving him a yes.

Quite honestly, doing your duty of destroying the world is one thing, but devoting yourself to violent and bloody conquest, devouring the souls of the fallen in the afterlife, and corrupting Dagon are far, far outside his purpose, and it ddoesn't help that he's an arrogant, yet cowardly sadist on top of it.

And to add to the moral agency of dragon-kind, I should also note that along with Paarthy, Odahviing, and that undead dragon ally in Dawnguard (Whose name I've forgotten, sorry, there are plenty of dragons you run into as random encounters who aren't malevolent or evil, they simply fly around and do harm to no one. I'd say that despite the inherintly violent nature of dragon-kind, Alduin doesn't fail any kind of moral agency test since dragons like him are more than capable of doing no harm to others.

You know what Scraggle? I'm going to apologize for stating that proposing Alduin was pointless, I'm actually really happy that he was effortposted today.

edited 17th Feb '17 6:02:04 PM by FriedWarthog

You're thinking of Durnehviir, from Dawnguard.

Alduin

Still inclined to my previous thoughts re: being uncomfortable voting on non-mortal entities from TES. Using the previous mention of Daedric Princes, for instance, many of them can and have acted very much like people. But that doesn't mean they're able to act outside their spheres. And again, there's no known "absolute truth" for the setting's metaphysics by design.

I'd agree that ordinary dragons do clearly have moral agency, despite their inherent tendencies to destruction - but Alduin is not a normal dragon.

Not going to vote no, but I can't honestly vote yes either.

edited 17th Feb '17 6:23:58 PM by nrjxll

"Oaks tries to inject a poisonous ghost directly into his heart, but this oddly fails, succeeding only in blowing off his left arm and giving him amnesia."

Huh.

To Professor Oak. I'll read Alduin later. Maybe. I'm tired.

Let me also reserve discussion for A Cure For Wellness in two weeks. Going to see it now

Almost a yes to Alduin, but I share nrjxll's thoughts so abstain for short time. Need more time to think.

Oaks.

Oh, and I'll also do For Honor in a week from this coming Tuesday

We may have to relook Joker's case after some new evidence came out last year.

The twist: There are actually THREE Jokers running around at the same time. This perfectly explains his shifting from Harmless V Illain to monster so quickly and his three personalities (prankster, mobster, monster).

The "prankster" seems to mainly be active in the Silver Age (and 60's Bat Man).

The "mobster" seems to be mainly active in Golden Age and Bronze Age (Michael Keaton Bat Man).

The "monster" seems mainly active past the Iron Age (Dark Knight Trilogy Batman and Batman Under The Red Hood).

This reveal retroactively makes DCAU Joker (Arkham Asylum as well) a Composite Character of all three Jokers.

Proposed Solution: We may now have evidence to place Joker as a Complete Monster. More specifically, Joker III (the other two certainly do NOT qualify).

I'm under the assumption that all of Joker's most vile acts (especially starting in the 80's where his characterization got much darker) such as Killingg Joke were done by Joker III.

edited 17th Feb '17 8:21:30 PM by magnum12

Actually, we've specifically differentiated the continuities before the reboot.

That's good to know.

The evidence presented may actually explain Depending on the Writer.

For example, it can be assumed the primary Joker active in Post 52 and New 52 is Joker III. Cone to think of it, Joker III may have become the basis for A LOT of Joker's adaptations. Its like the effect Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep had on Tremaine's characterization (even the live action Cinderella film is closer to the Birth By Sleep version than the original source material).

bishop, Alduin, oaks