During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I say keep D'Arby. And I Must Scream for eternity? No thank you. BTW, Scraggle wants me to ask if SCP-106 has been approved and written up.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Aside from D'Arby, the other Jojo CM's are easy keeps: Dio Brando is the cause for 1/2 of the atrocities committed in the entire series, Cioccolata is a serial killer, Angelo and J. Geil both serial killers and serial rapists, Diavolo is completely ruthless and paranoid, willingly to kill even his own daughter and mother to keep his identity a secret.
edited 16th Dec '15 1:07:41 PM by Kookosbanaani
D'Arby's a high up henchman for Dio, but Angelo and J. Geil are on that level as well....It's a bit...pedestrian by Jojo standards, too.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to keeping Norton. He has a level of personal cruelty and hypocrisy that really sets him apart. The way he tortures Andy by keeping him in solitary, especially after having Tommy killed is one of the cruelest things I've ever seen in a movie. I agree that Bogs is an easy keeper. Hadley and the killer (his name's Elmo Blatch, in case anyone's curious) are both nasty pieces of work, but don't match up to Norton or Bogs in terms of heinousness. Shawshank is my favourite movie, by the way.
Big ol' to locking down the pages for The Force Awakens. I'll still keep the "show spoilers" button off if I read those pages, just to be safe.
@Scraggle, thanks for the praise and advice on the writing front. I hope your manuscripts get published!
Earlier today Sebastian Di Ravello from Just Cause 3 was mentioned. Not sure if anyones planning an effortpost, if not I'll probably write one tomorrow but for now I'm giving a .
edited 16th Dec '15 3:15:41 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
@Lighty: Just how many people get put into And I Must Scream scenarios in this manga?
De Carta's thing about writing reminded me: I have a character in my superhero story whom I expect will be an easy keep when his whole character arc is published. He's only appeared in the prologue thus far, but he's already burnt a country to the ground (backstory event) and bombed Boston off the map.
edited 16th Dec '15 3:17:44 PM by DemonDuckofDoom
Yeah, my problem is that Norton being hateable and a hypocrite doesn't make him more heinous. He still shares a setting with Serial Rapists, Bogs and the Sisters, as well as other sadists like Blatch who murders two people and laughs the entire while time recounting their deaths and how an innocent man was sent to jail for his crimes, and an unhinged psychopath like Hadley, who committed Tommy's murder on Norton's orders. Every other antagonist seems more heinous than Norton even though Norton has more resources than all of them. In fact, Norton really only acts as bad as he "needs" to be to ensure his own survival and keep Andy working for him. So long as Andy does what he says, Norton treats him alright. Throw in the evidence that he might love his wife, meaning he may have a redeeming quality, and I can't justify keeping him.
How does allowing Hadley and the Sisters' atrocities affect his heinousness?
I still say D'Arby. He's the only Jo Jo villain who inflicts unending torment on his victims. As for not torturing them physically - they are dolls, so they probably don't have a complete nervous system.
As the Warden, Norton has a degree of control over what happens in the prison. He allows Hadley's brutality and does nothing to stop Bogs and the Sisters (Hadley only attacks Bogs to repay Andy for helping him hold on to a great deal of money). Norton also threatens to leave Andy to the mercy of the Sisters, or people like them, if Andy doesn't keep helping him with his money laundering operation. In short, Norton is the film's Big Bad, and the state of the prison is his responsibility.
edited 16th Dec '15 3:32:46 PM by DeCarta
I will give a to Norton and Boggs.
Also ACW, how many down votes do we need to remove Olivier from Punsiher from the YMMV sandbox, I have got two down votes.
I guess I will do a effort post for Toyman from Superman Doomsday:
Who is Toyman? What does he do?
Toyman is a secondary villain from the movie, Superman Doomsday. In the film, he robs a bank and then takes a school bus full of children hostage, using a giant robot spider (I know just roll with it). Toyman threatens to kill the children in the bus if the cops don't let him keep the money he stole, having the robot start to tip the bus off the ledge of a building. The cops leave, but Lois Lane manages to save most of the children. Seeing that most of the children have escaped, he refers to them as his "playthings" (which is creepy and seems to indicate he had no intention of releasing them, he seems to have an unhealthy obsession with children in this film.) A robot toy on the bus manages to stop Lois before she can save the last child on the bus and Toyman attacks Lois and the child, then throws the bus off the building, with Lois and the child on board. Superman (actually his clone, that is different story) manages to save Lois and the child and then captures Toyman. Toyman escapes from the police seemingly right away and launches an attack on a day care center, where he kills a 4 year old girl (we see the girl's body being wheeled out under a tarp, so that is officially on screen). The Superman clone is enraged and confronts the recently recaptured Toyman. After Toyman complains about Superman violating his rights. the clone drops him to his death.
Is he heinious by the standards of the story?
Now here is where things get interesting, there are 4 villains in this movie.
There is Doomsday, an unstoppable, mindless killing machine, the Superman clone, who quickly goes Knight Templar after dealing with Toyman, Lex Luthor and Toyman himself.
Doomsday likely has the biggest body count in the film, but he is way more powerful then Toyman is. He is also a malfunctioning robot who due to bad programming sees everything as enemy and technically is not even sentient. I don't know if you can apply the same moral judgments to this non sentient creature that could to other villains in the film.
The clone is a typical Knight Templar, he kills Toyman, threatens an old lady for distracting from his more important duties to help deal with her rather small concerns and attacks the military when they try to stop him from imposing Marshall law on the city.
Lex is the movie and he is a huge Jerkass. He devises a cure for a disease, but changes the forumla for the cure so it be a life long treatment rather then one shot treatment. Lex accidental frees Doomsday (but since he did it by mistake that counts for nothing in regards to the heinious standard). He kills own assistant so no one knows that he freed Doomsday, even if it was a mistake. he creates a Superman clone to be his pet hero and regularly beats up the clone (in a room with red sun light, with kryptonite gloves). He seems to want to create an army of Superman clones to take over the world and tries to kill Jimmy Olson and Lois Lane when they discover this. Lex is Jerkass with no redeeming characteristics, but his villainy never goes beyond generic bad guy stuff.
A problem for Toyman is he is not in the movie for very long, just 2 or 3 scenes, so that might work against him.
Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming traits?
Nope.
Final Verdict?
He might count, that depends on whether we determine whether he is heinous enough, given his resources and screen time, in this setting.
edited 16th Dec '15 5:34:31 PM by Overlord
Lizzid people!
@OccassionalExister: What was the context for when Norton mentioned his wife?
Toyman.
edited 16th Dec '15 4:00:10 PM by AustinDR
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Could go either way on Toyman. I already removed Oliver when doing the massive culling of the YMMV pages earlier.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to Toyman, it's hard to thumb down a creep who regularly endangers the lives of children as his M.O. The fact that he caused the Superman Clone to snap out of disgust and go full on Knight Templar only seals his status for me.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Toyman. It's hard for me to vote for him when a malfunctioning robot outdoes him in the heinous department in the same movie.
to Toyman. Didn't have a lot of screen time but he makes up for it by being real creepy. And his Tim Burton look didn't help.
edited 16th Dec '15 4:09:05 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Caesar
to Toyman. He's not as powerful as Doomsday, Lex, or Clone!Superman, and yet he holds close to a dozen children hostage, and succeeds in killing one, which is more than we can without a doubt say about the others.
As for Norton, I believe this is the "wife" line in question:
[Andy notices needlework framed on Norton's office wall that says “His Judgment Cometh and That Right Soon”]
Warden Norton: My wife made that in church group.
Now, that may not be the line in question, but this is an actual line from the film, and I'm 99% certain it is the one Lore Deluxe and Existed mentioned.
edited 16th Dec '15 4:10:50 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Lizzid people!
Honestly, it doesn't sound like it means much. It sounds more that he finds the needlework beautiful, rather than the fact that his wife made it.
edited 16th Dec '15 4:36:28 PM by AustinDR
Toyman, D'Arby, I think I voted against him before, I just don't think he measures up to the other villains listed on the JoJo page.
edited 16th Dec '15 5:58:46 PM by Camberf
Toyman. What a creep.
If that church group line is the one they're talking about, that doesn't strike me as mitigating.
Toyman, D'Arby.
Norton.
Toyman. If he does all that with only 2 or 3 scenes of screen time than I can't imagine how awful he would be if he was the Big Bad.
A total has-been.
Toyman. Also a to keep D'arby.
Warden Norton and Boggs Diamond are both definite![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
. Nothing redeeming about their characters or actions.