During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Before I start said film's with Lighty I've got a cut to propose (don't worry, I've got a replacement from the film). From Virtuosity:
- Dr. Darrel Lindenmeyer created SID 6.7 to serve as a training program for the act of taking down criminals. After SID (Sadistic, Intelligent, Dangerous) overwrites the failsafe and causes a person using the training program to die, people decide to shut SID down. Unwilling to let his work be shut down, Lindenmeyer brings SID into the real world and allows him to go on a murderous rampage throughout the city. Lindenmeyer watches SID's rampage on the news, and is impressed at SID's crimes. When SID kidnaps Dr. Madison Carter's daughter, Karin, and straps a bomb to her, Lindenmeyer taunts Madison. When Lt. Parker Barnes destroys SID's physical body, Lindenmeyer mocks Barnes over the fact that there is no one who can reveal Karin's location before the bomb detonates. When Barnes and Madison send SID's AI back into the virtual world to try and get information from him, Lindenmeyer kills Barnes's friend, Cochran, and traps Barnes in the virtual world, leaving him to be killed by SID and Karin to be killed when the bomb goes off.
Darrel has nothing to do with SID's rampage. Even when he kills the other scientist Darrel had tricked into helping release the program his response is to look horrified and run in terror. After disappearing for most of the film he shows up at the very end and though he's over his horror at what SID's done all he does is mock Madison when she asks where her daughter is and Parker when he kills SID's real body. His only crime is betraying the heroes to help SID, killing Parker's boss and trying to stop he and Madison from keeping SID contained in the virtual reality simulation. It's too little too late and nothing expands on his very minimal villainy.
Now Parker's old enemy and one of the key components to SID? Well stay tuned.
Edit: Yes to the above.
Edited by 43110 on Dec 17th 2021 at 4:31:23 PM
Imperfect Disgrace
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
All right, that sounds like a good argument to keep Grimmel.
Also, ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Washington.
Edited by Misry6 on Dec 17th 2021 at 8:33:58 AM
Just an empty void…
Goku Black
@, acw : Statham played the Big Bad of Chaos. But I don't think that guy counts. He's pretty tame for an action film and seemed sincere when he said he'd grown to like the protagonist at the end. But hey he's been in a lot.
Washington, cut Darrel. I've always wondered about Grimes from their tbh....
Edited by miraculous on Dec 17th 2021 at 8:35:07 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Cut Darrell. 43 and I have spoken and yeah, he's got a good one!
Showtime!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to George. Out of curiosity, we actuall see him in the show, right?
Cut Lindenmeyer. Seems like a dick, but not a CM. Should I wait for the replacement before cutting?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
What's the work?
Virtuosity is a very 90s sci fi action where a very bad idea results in a maniac running amok and an ex-cop currently imprisoned has to be released to hunt said maniac down. Denzel Washington is our hero, former policeman Parker Barnes, who lost it when attention-seeking terrorist Matthew Grimes killed his wife and daughter with a bomb that cost him his arm. While Parker killed Grimes in a rage, his personality was one of many implanted into the diabolical SID 6.7 program (Russell Crowe). Though the bombastic SID sadly lacks agency, Grimes has a strong influence on who he wound up being.
Who is Grimes? What has he done?
A political terrorist and mass bomber only capable of masking his sadism and desire for fame with the thinnest of anti-classist rhetoric, Grimes became annoyed when Parker latched on to his crimes and wouldn't let up. Ever hungry to be in front of a camera, Grimes allowed himself to be interviewed by a reporter, even happily dropping his signature line "This one's for you, Parker" (something he says before each and every kill).
Meanwhile he traps Parker's wife and daughter in a room strapped to explosives, hoping he'll detonate them and kill himself along with his family. Fighting through his men, Parker survives though with the loss of his arm. An enraged Grimes lunges at him, getting shot dead in his foe's rampage.
This isn't quite where his tale ends though. He might be dead but Grimes' personality winds up as one of the many psychopaths amalgamated into SID's mind. While they all wrestle for control he surfaces at times when SID sees Parker and in one notable instance is noted to have inspired a sadistic hostage situation in which SID holds a nightclub at gunpoint, forces the patrons to scream in a depraved orchestral-like musical and shoots them at his leisure, implied to make SID's ambitions grow bigger and bigger from here.
Mitigating factors?
Laughable, his rant against classism doesn't come across as sincere in the slightest and he's a sadist who gets off on hurting Parker and making the news as a mass murderer, a plain and simple pathological narcissist.
Heinousness?
Grimes might be dead but he's a very present Predecessor Villain... we get an extended flashback on his killing of Parker's family, we know about his pattern of bombing populated areas for fame and he's outright said to be what inspired SID to do his depraved dance in the club, with the heavy implication he drives more of his actions, including tormenting Parker throughout the film.
Verdict?
A far more fun and worthy candidate to replace the cut.
Yes to George Washington, love to see him living his best life.
Yes to Grimes as well.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Dec 17th 2021 at 8:48:02 AM
Yes to George Washington!
EDIT: And ol Grimey, as his friends liked to call him.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Dec 17th 2021 at 10:45:24 AM
Yes there, 43!!
@ACW: We do. It's brief, but we see about two-three brief flashbacks of Washington. The episode has a different story, resolution and has more an emphasis on comedy.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Leaning yes on Grimes; he PROBABLY counts either way, if only due to his influence, but do we actually see his bombings?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Grimes
Tbh I have always wondered about him. Its kinda clear that he's SID's main personality in the Mind Hive. (SID even says so to Parker).
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
As I said, he kills Parker's family with a bomb and his crime spree is way too intertwined in the plot to say what he did was "offscreen" even if one doesn't feel that scene alone is enough to call a pattern.
mir's correct, he's quite clearly leading the charge for the film.
Edited by 43110 on Dec 17th 2021 at 4:51:54 PM
Grimes and George Washington
Goku Black
So since Washington is going up and I know we have Keziah up from both.
Has anyone checked Moonface from the short story version of Joe R Landsdale's Incident On and Off a Mountain Road which inspired the Masters episode.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
BTW, for Strand's duology, should I do this?
- Pressure & Deathless:
- Pressure: Darren
- Deathless: Luna
Or:
- Pressure & Deathless:
- Darren
- Deathless only: Luna
to Grimes and Washington
Yes to Grimes and George. Cut Darrel.
I've read the story. Moonface is functionally identical.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
our second cannibal Washington and to Frank Grimes.
Washington and Grimes.
Grimes & Washington (I get what the moral of the story is, but it still feels really weird to make George Washington a cannibal to get that point across)
Lizzid people!
Satan was already thoroughly discussed and was deemed to not count due to moral agency issues.
There are some very obscure films out there, ACW!
We're not reevaluating Grimmel, definitly not. The dragons are 100 percent sapient, capable of bonds, complex thought, human emotion, etc. And from the games we have, Grimmel is remaining right where he is.
Also, I got me another from bentley Little with new rules! The short story from The Collection...the Washingtonians and given the change in tone from the show, I give you none other than...George Washington.
Who is George Washington?
The father of the country, honest Georgia. Our hero, Mike Franks, is looking through his deceased grandparents' things when he finds a most unusual letter. One from George Washington, authentic, no less as he finds when he brings it to a history professor. And what does this letter read?
"I will skin your children alive and eat them. When I am finished I will make utensils out of their bones." And there's, um, little ivory utensils with them. The good professor confirms to Mike that this is a very good thing he came to him. You see...history is a lie. IT's a sanitized thing to control the masses. The Washingtonians have devoted followers in the department and other sympathizers. Others are too terrified to lift a hand to stop them...
Washington was a monster. A brutal cannibal who gained a taste for long pig at Valley Forge, continuing to murder men daily for his meals and dreamed of establishing a country dedicated to cannibalism, with a lower class who would feed the upper classes. Quite...literally. Washington founded the society of Washingtonians where he hosted lavish cannibal feasts, commissioning a portrait of one where he and his concubines were gleefully ripping apart screaming victims. Thomas Jefferson was ripped apart by Washingtonians at one point and Benjamin Franklin...
there was no Benjamin Franklin. He's an invention to embody the American spirit. Oh, and the cherry tree myth? It's a cannibal metaphor. George loved the flesh of young virgins and skinned children alive and ate them. Eventually he passed, but the Washingtonians are out to get the letter. Mike flees as they attack and the Professor is lost...
Now, in the story, the Washingtonians drag them to Mt. Vernon where they're going to kill and eat the family when...the Professor shows up. In a red coat. With a legion of British troops with him. In the ensuing fight the Washingtonians are subdued and the good Professor tells Mike to get the truth out, expose Washington and destroy his reputation...
But don't look back...since the Washingtonians aren't the only ones with....dark traditions...
Mike and his family exit Mt Vernon with an escort to deliver the letter to the Smithsonian...as thy hear the Washingtonians screaming in agony and terror behind them.
Mitigating issues?
Okay, George's been dead for centuries here. That said, we get eeeeverything we need. The descriptions of him? Lavish. We see the portrait of himself he commissioned and oh yeah, we have a letter he wrote porclaiming his intent to skin and eat someone's children before making utensils from their bones, coupled with the bone utensils!
Maybe the only thing you can say is George was a wee bit sensitive about the wooden teeth myth as he used ivory. But no, George Washington is a sadistic, monstrous cannibal who wished to kill countless people so he might dedicate a society to devouring human flesh and his cult continues to cause problems centuries later.
Bentley Little has a bit of a distrust for centralized institutions and he wrote this as a bit of a satire on insular nature of historians. I'll have another from The Association where damn he hates Homeowner's Associations, I'll say that much.
I'm just saying, if his next book is "The Vaccine," then dibs. (I kid, nothing suggests Little is crazy)
Conclusion?
And a yes to George.
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 17th 2021 at 8:30:02 AM