During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, I checked; seems Sawbones is DC. Post Crisis?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Voting on him is currently tied I think.
Votes for the Clairvoyant:
5 ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Lord Xavius, Doineedaname, Very Melon, Scraggle, Hamburger Time
5 ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Super Saiya Man, Beast, Kylejacobs, Speyeker, Lightysnake.
Nohbody is uncertain on him counting but won't contest, nrjxll is undecided.
edited 17th Jul '14 10:49:08 AM by doineedaname
nrjxll was undecided on Garret.
Foreign Troper
For Skynet.
And while we're on AI's:
I think we should also bring Agent Smith from Matrix back into discussion.
I just watched the Movies again, and while it is in Part 1 true that he just follows his programming, he goes way beyond that later, especially in part 3.
He is way too malicious and sadistic to be simply excused by his programming, and considering that he gains independence and willingly turns on his masters, even planning complete Genocide of all that is simply because of his/its hatred of one single man, I think he more than qualifies.
In no way do I see him as a victim of his nature.
edited 17th Jul '14 12:06:40 PM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Lost in Space
We already downvoted Smith. That's not the "additional evidence" required to revisit him, that's just you rearguing the same case. The question of his moral agency is deliberately left ambiguous.
I still don't think Skynet should qualify solely on the basis of a single episode of a series that's not part of the film franchise.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I found this on the ymmv page for The Witch'sHouse:
Complete Monster: Ellen. At the age of seven, she murdered her parents and burned their hose to the ground. After that, she killed many people and fed their souls to a demon in exchange for a way to avoid death. Ellen befriended Viola for the sole purpose of stealing her body. After the switch happened, Ellen cut off her legs, gouged her eyes out, and force-fed her a throat-burning drug so that she would despair as she died. Ellen then leads Viola's father to unknowingly shoot his daughter dead, laughing after it happens and getting off scot-free. The real punch to the gut is that she succeeds "because the player helped her"
I have seen some lets plays of it, and this is all true, but I am not sure she counts.
edited 17th Jul '14 12:25:06 PM by bobg
jjj
Lost in Space
She burned their hose to the ground? How mean! ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Sorry I am having trouble with by keyboard, I meant house.
jjj
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, don't know if Smith is heinous enough, but he certaintly has A God Am I tendencies.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Foreign Troper
We can dispute many things, but why shouldn't he be heinouss enough? Even the collective Machine Intelligence pulls an Enemy Mine with the humans because of his global plan of total destruction.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
@ Fighteer: We're not talking about The Sarah Connor Chronicles but Terminator Salvation, the fourth movie in the film franchise. It can't really get more official than that.
Re: Smith: As said, he was already downvoted. His first speech in The Matrix Reloaded consists of him explaining that he has no free will to speak of but was repurposed to become a virus by the matrix.
edited 17th Jul '14 12:51:13 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Lost in Space
@Morgenthaler: Oh, never mind. I haven't seen the fourth film. If it gives Skynet sufficient motivations to qualify for CM, go for it, although the fact that it came in that film only should be mentioned in the example.
Re: Smith — It's established that some programs may defy the orders of the system to "self-terminate" when they're supposed to be deleted. This form of free will is treated as anomalous, but it seems to be intended to be seen as a form of moral agency.
Smith is a special case. His defiance of deletion is not treated as this so much as it is the Matrix, as part of its programming, creating a counterpart to Neo. As Neo is heroic, Smith is evil. As Neo is hopeful, Smith is nihilistic. As Neo is protective, Smith is sadistic. As Neo becomes able to transcend the Matrix and impact the real world, so does Smith. At times Smith even seems baffled by this, like he's not really willing it to happen so much as going along with it.
Anyway, the point is that it leaves his moral agency vague enough that he falls into that "99% monster" category — insufficiently conclusive to qualify.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
"As Neo becomes able to transcend the Matrix and impact the real world, so does Smith. At times Smith even seems baffled by this, like he's not really willing it to happen so much as going along with it."
Hmm, I'd never thought of that.
Looks like the Matrix outsmarted itself.
edited 17th Jul '14 1:41:13 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@Camberf: I think the last time we discussed Phantom it was a unanimous keep. I don't think anyone really questioned his moral agency. But personally, I think his moral agency exists, he's just that much of a sociopath that he lies to himself and tries to convince himself that he has no moral agency. He's just an excellent actor like Matt Engarde. After all, Engarde lied about killing Juan Corrida even when the Magatama was used on him.
He has the deeds to qualify, he has shown sadism in the game at least once, and his moral agency exists. I see no reason why he shouldn't qualify.
It's been a while since I've played Dual Destinies mind you, so there might be things I don't know. But from the looks of it he qualifies. Unless someone has a very compelling case as to why he shouldn't.
He gloated at the end when he was winning. I think that's reason enoug to believe he can feel emotion.
He feels no emotion because he's a sociopath. Sociopaths generally don't feel that much emotion outside of gloating and sadism from what I know. Look at Matt Engarde.
Also I'm kind of thinking of contesting Manfred Von Karma. As evil as he is, doesn't he show interest in visiting his daughter's first trial? He also shows genuine regret over making Kay afraid of him. Isn't that enough to humanize him?
Lost in Space
"Looks like the Matrix outsmarted itself."
That is sort of the message of the third film. Smith is the embodiment of the Architect's "anomaly", a yin/yang effect built into the system to counter the rise of the One. Neo got stronger than any One before him, so Smith got stronger than any counteragent, to the point where the Machines were forced to compromise to avert the destruction of their entire "civilization".
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Thanks for clearing up Dio, just wanted to make sure.
- Queen Burn of the Sandwings. She's stated to be the most ruthless of the three Sandwings, which is proven true when she proceeds to try and convince Scarlet to kill the five Dragonets. Starflight eve believes that if she became queen, she'd probably keep the war going just for fun.
Most of this is just characters' descriptions of her.
Smith was discussed and was a no for a reason.
for Koba, though I guess I'm a little late for that ? Also a for Luther. Not to sure about Korn though.
Also did we come to a conclusion on David McCall ? I know I'm asking out of date, but I don't think we came to an agreement.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
I think Koba's pretty much been agreed upon.
David was voted down I think
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Klavice raises some interesting questions about Manfred...
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Sigh..
We've dealt with this before. Manfred gives no flying fucks about his family. He's ambivalent at best, abusive at worst. He wants to attend Franziska's trial because he views his kids as extensions of himself and the von Karma name and he wants to validate they aren't screwing up.
Back to the Clairvoyant, anyone feel like breaking the tie?
I think narrow keep now