During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Thanks, it's very confusing as the Fate series are both a visual novel and an anime adaptation.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Zouken Matou is on Other media section.
Edited by Kookosbanaani on Apr 11th 2021 at 12:29:26 PM
Goku Black
I don't think that's necessary. Light novels are put their anyway.
Heavens feel actually has had an adaptation now.
I Uh shrugs I don't know. The fact we have entries split under so many different mediums is weird.
Edited by miraculous on Apr 11th 2021 at 12:33:06 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Wait didn't we make a visual novel page though?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, it's there.
If/when the Fate series ever gets its own page, I think I'll index it under Visual Novels, Video Games, AND AniManga.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Their are probably more out their considering the size of the franchise. So we will prbably get one eventually.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Draftsman of Doom
If Gaster clearly cares about Ink, I agree with cutting.
Caesar
@ACW: Dormammu was downvoted because, even if he's a bit of a dick about it all, he's ultimately depicted as only feeding on universes because it literally keeps him alive and he'll "starve" without life. He's not quite enough of a sadistic bastard otherwise for me to say it's a case of "Yeah he wants to stay alive but he's way too horrible anyway so he can count" like other cases of CMs who count while "just" trying to feed.
Alright, what should be one last candidate this batch from me...also another comic book animation!
What's the work?
Batman: The Dark Knight Returns is a 2012-2013 animated adaptation of the classic comic of the same name.
In the story, a futuristic Gotham has gone for years without Batman and much of his Rogues Gallery, yet the city has fallen into worse crime than ever faced. And as an older, grizzled Bruce Wayne decides to take up the mantle of Batman again to defend his fair city from the newest, baddest threat assailing it.
The film(s) already depicts the Joker himself as a nasty individual who counts in the original comic, but one who I think counts in the animated movie solely, thanks to a lower standard?
Who is the Mutant Leader? What has he done?
An overly-buff, monstrous looking gang boss who controls the massive..."organization" known simply as the Mutants, the Mutant Leader and his forces have been the number one contributor to Gotham's rising crime and bodycount. Stories pop up on the news constantly throughout the movie, discussing nun massacres, entire families being slain, and the Mutants' newest crime spree involving kidnapping children, getting the ransom money, then mutilating and killing the children anyway. And all for nothing but violence itself.
Declaring soon to be retired Commissioner James Gordon their number one target thanks to him badmouthing the Mutants, the Leader orders him murdered as Batman begins disrupting Mutant crime through the city, stopping rapes, the kidnapping and murder of a 2 year old boy, and various other various crimes. Soon enough gaining a mass of military equipment, the Leader declares his intent to march on Gotham and its police department to "kill and kill!", hoping to decapitate Gordon and parade his head through the city.
Confronted, beaten down, and left to be arrested by Batman, the Mutant Leader cheerfully proclaims that his Mutant army will invade Gotham and raze it to the ground as punishment for this offense. When the Mayor of Gotham tries to negotiate the Leader into calling off the coming bloody conflict, the Leader rips out the Mayor's throat with his teeth and a sadistic smile, and the Leader later casually threatens the wife and kids of the cop charged with overseeing him in his cell.
Ultimately, the Mutant Leader is released by Batman long enough for Batman to brutalize and cripple him in front of his Mutant gang, ending his cult-like control over them and fracturing his gang so that they are no longer any sort of threat to the city.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Nothing here but a sadistic gang leader who values strength and being a braggart above all else, you'll have to forgive the lack of complexity! ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Heinousness?
Joker sets a high standard for sure—he massacres a live television audience, sells poisoned cotton candy at a fair, and shoots several people—and even Two-Face tries to bomb a skyscraper and kill thousands, but the Mutant Leader is plenty bad enough. The film showcases the crimes his gang gets up to plenty—from kidnapping and killing children as young as two to murdering entire families to slaying groups of nuns—and then the Leader escalates things to a whole new level when he tears out the mayor's throat and gleefully intends for his gang to use military-grade weapons to kill their way through Gotham and raze the entire city.
He's a nasty customer all on his own, and while Joker is the obvious first Keep, I think the Leader passes great on his own.
Final Verdict?
Yeparoonie!
Edited by Ravok on Apr 11th 2021 at 2:51:32 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Goku Black
Oh sure. ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Mutant Leader
Film rocks. Love Peter weller batman
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to the Leader. Please remind me why he doesn't count in the comics? Lower standard to be sure, but we agreed Joker from the comics kept.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yes to the Mutant Leader
Joker is essentially one man with a henchman, who kills hundreds for shits and giggles, has most of the patients of Arkham Asylum mutilate themselves, lots of personal nastiness, poisons children and ec.
Mutant Leader has an army under his command, he needs to do more with the resources he has, especially with Luthor and Brainiac around and Batman becoming a fascist maniac.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Apr 11th 2021 at 1:17:25 PM
Caesar
@ACW: Mainly, to me, cuz the movies only cover "Returns"...the comic is explicitly in canon with other batman stories like "All Star" and "Strikes Again" which watched up the standard. Like Joker is considerably worse in the comic than in the film, but that means comic!Leader has to go up against a worse Joker as well as Lex Luthor, Brainiac, etc.
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
-d lol
Finishing up the book tonight and will hopefully have him up soon after so long as I find he sticks the landing there, bud!
Edited by Ravok on Apr 11th 2021 at 3:05:06 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Y'know, I'd been wondering about this guy a number of times, but I never got to revisiting the movie. I'm gonna say "yes" to the Mutant Leader. The sheer density of his mass murder and the fact he's still clearly a lesser Big Bad to the Joker means I think he distinguishes himself plenty for where he is.
How's the final readings into Edge Chronicles going, Ravok? I'd love if Golderayce One-Eye did manage to clinch after all.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Joker's WORSE in the comic? Huh.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Emperor of Evil!
to Mutant Leader
Excuse me what... Is that a joke or nah
Edited by Powermaster201 on Apr 11th 2021 at 6:09:09 AM
Goku Black
Hey fun fact about miller batman. Apparently joker came back recently in Dark Knight Returns: The Golden Child where hin and darkseid and trump schemed to use Trump to take over the world....
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Caesar
We do not speak of this, mir. We do not speak of this.
Gotta love Jaws!
to Kruger, Mordo and slightly more hesitant one to Mutant Leader and while I'm at it Superwoman even if I did miss that discussion by quite a bit.
The Draftsman of Doom
Sure to Mutant.
Please do not ignore Snoke's concerns. I have already weighed in and would appreciate if others did the same.
Thanks, 43.
No problem, bud. Things sometimes get missed, is all.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 11th 2021 at 6:22:07 AM
Great job! Yeah to the mutant leader!
I’m supportive of the cut.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 11th 2021 at 6:15:27 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Thankyou Sky
to Mutant Leader, great job as always Rav!
Gotta love Jaws!
Goku Black
Fine cutting Gaster.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
What's Gaster from again?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
It's at Anime & Manga: G to N (it's with the anime namespace).
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts