During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
BTW, I HOPE to have the Tarkin stuff tomorrow.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Found this on Shane's character entry from inFAMOUS: First Light
- A Father to His Men: Despite everything else, he makes it quite clear that he cares about the men that work under him. He even seems more upset about Fetch killing his men than destroying his product. However, he's not above executing minions that betray him such as Jenny.
I never played Second Light and I haven't watched a playthrough of it. Is his "care" for his loyal minions simply Pragmatic Villainy?
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Apr 19th 2019 at 3:28:41 PM
Pragmatic Villainy. He talks about how he needs his gangs numbers and can't afford them dead. Covered in his EP.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@Silverblade: Didn't someone recently start a CM quote cleanup thread anyway?
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Lizzid people!
Imperial did.
Okay, so...Sabrina discussion now? We are cutting Lilith. Immediately. In the series, she meets the fiancee of Mrs. Wardwell, the woman she pulled a Kill and Replace on and genuinely falls in love with him. When he's killed, she's aggrieved as hell, and works against Satan as a result...by the end, while it's for largely self-serving reasons, Lilith helps Sabrina defeat Satan and takes her place as the queen of hell. She does, however, honor her deal to Sabrina and even revives Mrs. Wardwell good as well.
That said...maybe we can lose out on Madam Satan when we can replace her with Master Satan.
Who is Satan?
Lucifer, the Dark Lord, is a proud, powerful former archangel. Once the mightiest of the sons of Heaven, Satan refused God's decrees in his arrogance and upon his rebellion, his wings were torn from his back and he was hurled to earth. He met Lilith there who cared for him and became the first witch, first of his followers. Seeking to regain his past glory, Satan schemed for ages....which is where Sabrina comes in.
Now, it turns out? Sabrina is not truly the daughter of Edward Spellman. Satan...is responsible for the horrific systems that make up the witch covens...like, cannibalism, mass murder, human sacrifice, damnation, evil plots, homicide and so forth? All traced back to him, with his tacit approval as he pushes for the damnation of all who sign their names in his Book of the Beast, which is rote for witches. Now, Satan? Also forces witches in 'First Night' privileges, which is rape, where he takes over their bodies to consummate a marriage. This was the case of Edward Spellman, who Satan possessed...which resulted in the fathering of Sabrina Spellman, before Edward's untimely death....Sabrina, as Satan's daughter, is the key to unlocking the path between heaven and hell. Satan sent Lilith to corrupt her, with the belief Lilith would reign at his side in the end...in fact? He double crosses her, like he does everyone. Appearing as a hideous, goat headed monster outside of hell, Satan orchestrates the horrors of season 1, with deaths and the near extermination of the town. Season 1? He furthers Sabrina's corruption, manipulating her into darker deeds to belong to him more and more, almost making her burn down her school and then stopping her just to showcase how far she'll go when he commands.
Even worse is Satan's nastiness to his followers. Now, Lilith? Meets her human host's fiancee and really falls for him. Upon a nice dinner...Satan reveals himself and the main course? She's eating the man she loves, who Satan butchered just as a lesson not to get independent...and then has her finish the meal.
Upon rising, Satan plans to creepily 'marry' Sabrina, with all that entails and after that? Well, he'll use her to unlock the gates after he's corrupted her. Earth will become a new hell, everything enslaved and suffering under Satan's dark reign. With the help of Lilith, Sabrina and friends trick Satan in hell, faicng him there, where Sabrina pulls off a gambit with her boyfriend Nick Scratch. Satan cannot be destroyed, but he can be contained, and he is bound into Nick's body. Nick remains in hell as Lilith takes the throne, Satan bound and imprisoned, removed as a threat with his ambitions stopped.
Heinous Standard?
Worst in series by far, easily sets it. Hell on earth, murders galore, corruption, etc.
Mitigating Qualities?
Satan portrays himself to witches as the misunderstood hero of his own story. This is garbage. Witche can be good or bad, but Satan is a sadistic, arrogant monster who fell from grace thanks to his own doings and just refuses to accept responsibility. Despite his proclamations of God as a tyrant, Satan is a vicious control freak who responds to any independence with brutal retribution. What he does to Lilith is as nasty as you can possibly get there....and as for Sabrina? His 'care' for her is played for creepy, incestuous, controlling wrongness rather than anything redeeming or caring whatsoever. She's a tool to earn control of the world, not a beloved daughter. Worth noting that Sabrina's Aunt Zelda, a committed Satanist all throughout, is revolted by the reveal of Satan's true nature, plans for her niece and the world and turns on him.
Conclusion?
An easy keeper, while Lilith is a cut. Oh, and let's keep an eye on Lord Faustus Blackwood as well, because he crosses the MEH but good in the finale, but hasn't done enough quite yet to make the final cut.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Master Satan. Cut Madame Satan.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Satan. Any chance of him escaping Nick's body?
Also, nice little bit of hypocrisy: Angry at God for casting him out for being independent, then had Lilith eat that guy "Satan butchered just as a lesson not to get independent". Is that ever pointed out in story?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Master Satan. Cut Madame Satan.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Ultimate Moral Compass
Satan.
Man, fuck that shit with Lilith. If a villain's super evil and shows no redeeming qualities, keep them that way. Don't bring them back and suddenly make them nicer, that's inconsistent character writing. Sorry, rant over.
"No running in the halls!"
Well, the season ends with Sabrina resolving to save Nick. It's certainly possible he'll be back, but as of the end of S1? He's neutralized.
Not gonna lie? It actually made Lilith a much better character. I actually have no issues with cutting her because the character development she gets was way more investing.
Edited by Lightysnake on Apr 19th 2019 at 1:29:22 AM
to Dobrivoje, Quinn and Satan.
Bye bye Madame Satan, and hello/ to Master Satan!
Terrible character but yeah to Satan. On the plus side I look forward to discussing Lilith on the other side.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 19th 2019 at 4:32:47 AM
Even without seeing the show, I’m mad to hear that a clear cut CM gets cut yet again because it is probably a last minute curveball. Again, because I haven’t see the show yet, I can’t comment on it really until I do.
It's far from a last minute thing.
Cut Madame Satan, Yes to Master Satan
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
to Satan
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Madame Satan. Though it's nice to see a CM at least get cut for good reasons story wise. Unlike certain other cuts...(Cough Xehanort cough)
Interesting thing to type.
Edited by Kylotrope on Apr 19th 2019 at 1:38:00 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Yes to Satan.
Satan.
Because we can never have enough Satans up.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Should I cut Madame Satan now, or wait until I submit Satan?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Sooner she's cut? The better.
Current mood: sick of your shit
@Lighty Yeah that comment about it being last minute was before I read your brief description about it. It still probably contradicts what was shown before though. Even though Patrick Lloyd was one of mine, this is more frustrating than his cut was (I guess I had more time to prepare for it and that’s why). I guess some of my own unapproved still sting more, but while the show doesn’t go up to three CMs, at least it stays at two.
A couple slight edits. The drafts will reflect this:
- Santa Clarita Diet: Dobrivoje Poplović from Season 3 is a sadistic Serbian who has an obsession with the undead. He frequently has had undead people abducted and attempted to experiment on them while they're alive (and possibly has mistakenly abducted regular humans that he’s tortured anyway). Until Poplović gets a lead in Santa Clarita, at least two undead break free and kill themselves to avoid being dissected. Poplović cares nothing for having incompetent employees murdered or threatened. He threatens one of his new men by suffocation with a plastic bag, driving the two to eventually quit and become undead who end up going on a killing spree. Believing Joel Hammond to be the undead he's looking for, Poplović threatens to kill everyone at his and wife Sheila's party if he doesn’t go with him. Poplović then impales Sheila to a wall when discovering she's the true undead, stating his intention to kill Joel and use her and other undead people to harvest their blood for a cure to aging that he can profit from.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 19th 2019 at 1:55:20 AM
No to that quote. He just threatens one person. We are currently raising the standards for a good cm quote and it now needs to establish the character as absolutely vile, heinous and lacking redeeming qualities.