During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Mason and Cole
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You mean Burns, there?
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
All right, Kavaxas seems to be 11 and 0 ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
. I'll try to get his write-up posted later today when things are less hectic on my end.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I just re-read Kavaxas's effortpost. Considering trying to destroy the world isn't THAT common, I'll give a slightly more confident .
Cole and I THINK Burns, but this was on Wikipedia: "Burns then chokes Cole to death in order spare him from the pain" (sic). Mercy Kill, or You Have Outlived Your Usefulness?
Tenkai, Ramrod, Cole and Burns.
ACW this is giving me real concerns about your reading the effortposts in detail
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I read the effortpost: "but given the fact Burns literally tells Cole to "shut up" as Cole is blubbering in pain from having his legs ripped off, chokes him out without a single emotion on his face," For all we know it could be an odd kind of mercy kill. (Though, admittedly, I did miss the "strangles Cole to death himself once it's clear he's too wounded to be of any further use to him".)
edited 24th Apr '17 5:57:40 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to Ramrod, Walter Cole and Thomas Burns.
Messenger from another dimension.
Yes to Tenkai, Ramrod, Cole and Burns.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Thanks. for Burns confirmed.
I'll request the locking and such for BIONICLE tomorrow. I'll wait until MGD107 has seen all episodes of Grimm before taking care of that.
edited 24th Apr '17 8:54:45 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this. Can I spoiler my writeup on Tricky Business?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Show us which parts you want to spoil and if we deem it necessary, submit it through the Edit Requests thread. I'm generally wary regarding spoiling CM entries given this trope's nature as Spoilered Rotten and there's no way we'd let an all-white entry fly.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah. I mean, if there's a recent spoiler (true identity of the Legion Big Bad), or a significant death, then maybe, but in general it's not usually necessary.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Charrlie, Kokurano
Kavasax, Ramrod, Braden, Braden, Black Ninja Burns and Cole.
Also a very late yes for Slade.
Speaking of TMNT, someone suggested we look at the Tengu Shredder from TMNT 2003 cartoon, but nothing came of it, so I rewatched the fifth season and will do an effort post on him:
Who is Tengu Shredder? What has he done?
This is rather complicated, the Tengu Shredder is actually 2 different beings that merged into one and the story of the Tengu Shredder starts in Japan in the 3rd century.
A giant Tengu demon was rampaging across the land and the Emperor sent 5 champions to deal with it, one was named Oroku Saki. The 5 champions defeat the demon and Saki was the one that dealt the killing blow. However the demon made a deal with Saki before that happened, give up his soul and allow the demon's spirit into his body in order to gain great power. Saki agreed and the demon was just an empty shell at the point when Saki destroyed it.
Saki then launched a campaign to conquer Japan and took the name Shredder. The other 4 champions studied the mystic arts to become powerful enough to face the Shredder. They defeat him and Shredder is imprisoned.
Anyway flash forward to the 21st century and 5 of Shredder's demon minions have been released from a spell that imprisoned them. The manage to free the Tengu Shredder, after some complicated maneuvering.
You would think the Tengu Shredder would be grateful, but no, he isn't. He essentially tortures his minions whenever they annoy him.
Before going to conquer the world, Tengu Shredder decides to kill Karai, who currently wears the mantle of the Shredder, believing that it is an insult that she would would use his indentity for own purposes. Shredder also seems to like randomly destroying things on the way to Karai's HQ, nearly killing several people in the process. Anyway Shredder overwhelems all of Karai's defeses and challenges her himself. Shredder also mocks Karai several times, taking the appearance of her adopted father (whom she loved despite him being another evil psychopath) to mess with her and saying he amy spare her life if she agrees to become his slave. Shredder stabs Karai, but the Turtles manage to drive him off (the Turtles have access to the same mystic powers the champions used to fight Shredder in ancient Japan). The Turtles manage to save Karai's life, BTW.
Shredder then heads to city hall and turns it into his personal palace. Shredder then uses his evil magic to turn New York into a nightmarish hellscape , where demons and the undead go around attacking random citizens. Shredder plans to draw upon more energy in order to do the same thing to the entire world.
The Turtles team up with several old allies and enemies in order fight the Tengu Shreddder.
Anyway, long story short, the Turtles manage to destroy the Tengu Shredder through a combination of their mystic powers and Karai managing to steal some of Shredder's energy, having established a link with him when she took up the mantle of the Shredder.
Is he heinous by the standards of the story?
This where things get tricky, Tengu Shredder has to compete with Utrom Shredder, who set the bar pretty high, but while Tengu Shredder is really powerful, he got way less screen time then Utrom Shredder.
Now sure, Utrom Shredder killed millions of beings across the cosmos, tried to kill millions of people on Earth and almost destroyed all of reality, but Utrom Shredder was free to act for most of his life, while Tengu Shredder was imprisoned for centuries and Tengu Shredder never had access to tech that allowed him to go to other dimensions.
I think Tengu Shredder was as bad as his shorter screen time allowed him to be, turning the Earth into a hellscape is pretty up there in terms of evil deeds.
Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
Nah, Oroku Saki may have been a good person at one point, but after he sold his soul to a demon, he loses any redeeming qualities, he can't even be bothered to be grateful to the demon minions who freed him.
I don't think moral agency is an issue, Saki and the demon are one being and Saki chose to let the demon bond with him.
Tengu Shredder is extremely arrogant and will sometimes spare people in order to mock them or say they would be more useful as his slaves then being dead, but considering he was planning in turning the world into a nightmarish hell scape, none of that was done out of mercy.
Final Verdict?
I think he could count, despite heavy competition from the Utrom Shredder in terms of heinousness
Sucks that Hux doesn't count now though it seems. Quite ironic how one Star Wars book apparently disqualifies Hux while another qualifies Krennic.
Messenger from another dimension.
Krennic qualifies due to his actions in both the book and the movie. If he only appeared in the book, he wound't qualify just like he wouldn't qualify in the movie alone. He only qualifies if we consider both mediums. And I bet that as the new EU evolves, he will be disqualified.
Could we stop it with the pointless speculation of Star Wars characters? It gets us nowhere. For now, some qualify, some don't. Don't make a big deal out of it.
Anyways, for Tengu Shredder, I'm only willnig to give him a yes if the resource/tier argument is shown to definitively work in his favor — and I'm questioning that given how he's a supernatural demon with the power to transform an entire planet into a hell world. Ch'rell's got him pretty thoroughly outweighed in heinousness, both in scale and personal deeds.
edited 24th Apr '17 11:19:38 AM by Scraggle
x5 &6:
It's not that. I just wanna remain consistent with the rest of the page(the Tricky Business page that is). His actions are spoiler tagged there. Also I feel like Tark is a very Knight of Cerebus type character, and as such it ruins the surprise if you know all his actions before hand.
edited 24th Apr '17 11:31:40 AM by jjjj2
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
I was reluctant to bring up Tengu Shredder for that reason, but I do think there is a resource you are not considering, time. Utrom Shredder simply had more time to do things, he was free to act for centuries, while demon Shredder was imprisoned for centuries, then freed, tried to make the world a hellscape and then he died. So Utrom Shredder had more screen time and more time in universe, so while Tengu Shredder was more powerful, Utrom Shredder had more time to do things.
edited 24th Apr '17 11:24:55 AM by Overlord
Dozens upon dozens upon dozens of writeups have their entries unspoiled while the work page/YMMV page otherwise uses spoilers. Consistency is not our worry here. So, unless you have a convincing argument outside of bias, the entry will remain unspoiled.
I'll wait for more opinions on Tengu Shredder. I do recall his end goal being rather nasty but Ch'rell really makes this a tough consideration, and I don't know how well the time argument works given what we're measuring here is onscreen villainy. I'll abstain.
edited 24th Apr '17 11:27:28 AM by Scraggle
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
I guess I'll Tengu Shredder?
This...
is gonna get messy.
And I'll probably change my mind.
Purpose of this website is to give information and while conservative use of spoiler tags might improve the reading experience, we need the bulk of examples un-tagged so anyone, even people unfamiliar with the work, can get a sense of the tropes used.
I get the want to avoid spoiling things but again, this website emphasizes giving information > hiding plot details.
edited 24th Apr '17 12:14:15 PM by 43110
I know I;m a little late to the conversation about Kokurano, but since old school Yu-Gi-Oh has been floating around in my mind recently, I thought I'd throw in my two cents.
Kokurano is absolutely vile, there's no doubt about that. However, the only thing that gives him a shot at the heinous standard is his Attempted Rape of Anzu. As the only rapist in the series, that would give him a fair case... But then you remember that in the Death-T arc, Joey faces off against Chopman, a serial killer who murdered an entire camp full of children, and THAT guy doesn't qualify as a CM because he has barely any backstory and zero personality aside from yelling about how he wants to cut up the group.
it could be argued that Kokurano's punching above his weight class for horribleness in the series, having far fewer resources than the obscenely rich Kaibe or the huge cast of magically-powered villains. If that is taken into account, then there is a slight chance that he may qualify, but he still probably loses to Chopman anyway.