During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Kanaco, Cruz, Crawla, Stalin, the Gaiaphage, and putting McLeach on the Never Again list.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for the Law and Order trio.
to Gaiaphage.
I think I'll still maintain my on the trio. While their body count may be low compared to others on, they still have their cruelty and the murders they commit are rather unsettling and slow, especially with the two children who they suffocate
Gaiaphage
The Moron
Alright, with a special thanks to Scrags for giving me this one and a side order of "sorry this took so damn long" ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
, I present you all with more Marvel, specifically the X-men.
Who is Tullamore Voge? What does he do?
Tullamore Voge hails from Earth-1289 and haunts the X-men for eight issues. There's really not a lot of complexity to him, so here's the basics: he's a slaver, not just in his own universe but omniversally. He's introduced working with another slaver, Ransome Sole, who's selling "living statutes" to him. The X-men arrive and defeat the crew, capturing Voge himself - but Voge uses psychic powers to almost break Wolverine, Phoenix, and Cable's minds before his crew rather violently breaks him out. When we see him next, he's made a "deal" with some of the X-men to capture their former allies for himself, but he naturally backs out on the deal and a fight breaks out. In the process, we get the first glimpse at his massive operation (and this is even before he's a multiversal slaver) with dozens if not hundreds of slaves visible on-page ready to be wold. Voge somehow escapes during the inevitable battle and is later seen trying to by Storm from fellow slaver Masque to fulfill his revenge against her, but she ultimately escapes before that can happen.
He later appears in the 2014 Nightcrawler series up to his usual shenanigans, and this is when he truly gets worse. He's back on Earth-616 having his crew capture a bunch of people to sell, including a bar full of random innocents and later on two of the new X-men, both of whom are children. Later on, we see his operation - and it's an omniversal slave trade of super-powered children, selling these children off to others in horrific conditions and even splitting up families in the process. We're easily talking hundreds if not thousands of children visible on-page, and in his own words, he's been doing this for "generations". He begins the bidding war on his two captives, but they manage to escape - in rage, he enslaves his own crew and gets a new one, the warwolves, to track them down.
Luckily, Nightcrawler intervenes with help from Bloody Bess (a former member of Voge's crew), and while the warwolves take on the adults, the kids go for Voge himself. Voge tries to flee from the children like the coward he is, but they manage to teleport him into a cell on their transport, and while the warwolves almost kill Bess, she ultimately survives. In the end, the children are rescued (though many no longer have families to go back to thanks to the slavers' ruthlessness), Bess leaves to search for her former crew that Voge slaved out, and Voge himself is gonna rot in prison for the rest of his unnatural life.
Any mitigating factors? Freudian Excuse?
Does this look like the kind of character with anything even vaguely sympathetic to him???
Is he heinous enough?
Omniversal slaver who particularly targets children by the hundreds if not thousands. Do I need to say more?'''
Final verdict?
Easy yep - what about you?
Gaiaphage and Voge.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Voge. Ransome Sole do enough?
Also, guys, don't forget Dagra Dai.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Voge and Dai.
Wild Child
Ultimate Moral Compass
Dagra and Voge
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don't know if it really matters. Personally, I lean towards spoiling, but I don't care too much either way.
Goku Black
Admingtly it is a bit weird to have it spoiled when both the main and character page leave these guys uncovered.
Like the page doesn't treat these guys existing as a big shock so why are we?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, but the Hooded One's character page has spoilers.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Than spoil hers. No reason to spoil all three?
We're supposed to be at least be a bit conservative with them
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
to Gaiaphage and Voge.
Voge, Dagra and on reflection to the L&O trio. They might have a low body count but the way they kill people is so nasty I say they make it. Quality over quantity
Edited by Agentofchaos on Feb 26th 2022 at 4:29:05 AM
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Also, rewatching it (Don't ask how) I have a cut I wanna propose...
Leila from Bright is a nasty piece of work, but...TBH, her final scenes with her sister? I think this is overlooking a vital redeeming quality. Yes, she tries to kill her, but only when she thinks Will Smith has destroyed her. When she sees her again, she's rubbing her cheek, tenderly whispering "Come with me. Dream with me again!" And all but begging her to return. She seems genuinely hurt and furious by the realization she sister has changed and screams Will Smith "took her" from her, just before she's killed.
Professor Gigachad
I will admit I was around for the discussion of her but I did read it and she was mostly approved for the poor writing severely downplaying that redeeming trait. Leaning cut for now but I want to take a look at that.
Here is the EP.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Feb 26th 2022 at 1:40:22 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
I'm not denying the writing is bad, but her utter grief and rage at Tikka being "corrupted," IMO is indicating that Leilah still loves her and is heartbroken her sister is change d and 'taken' from her.
I'm all for a villain throwing away a good quality, but that's different for me from them making an impulsive, brutal move in the midst of what seems to be pure rage and heartbreak. While she's sent killers after her...Cersei did the same to Jaime in Game of Thrones. The only time the two are onscreen together, Leilah is all but begging her sister to come back to her.
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 26th 2022 at 1:41:59 AM
Professor Gigachad
That is fair. I would also like to hear what Tyk has to say as he did do the original EP, maybe he has some counterargument.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Yeah, just for the dialogue that sold me...
When Tikka refuses her entreaties, Leilah is all but sobbing "Come home! Wake up! This is not you! What have you done to my sister?!"
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
I did bring this up in my EP and explained my reasons for voting the way I did. Some people abstained and one or two people voted no, but everyone else felt like she still qualified. And my main point of contention was that immediately after having this redeeming scene, she was like "Gimme the wand or I'm killing my sister."
And I'm like "Bitch, you just had this emotional scene with your sister but you're fine killing her regardless. Make up your damn mind."
That's how I interpreted the scene, which I brought up, and this is not the first time we've had a CM because they botched a character's writing—even when previous scene contradict what they end up doing or attempting to do, like with Sentinel Prime.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Earnestly going to support a cut, we got rid of Turnbull on the basis of a single line of dialogue, even when he pointedly ignores Jonah's taunts about his son. It's the same reason I'm really not comfortable with Kevin from Rocky Handsome... the scene cuts off earlier but his voice audibly cracks when he hears his brother being tortured and just like his original counterpart tries to warn his little bro to get out of the club when the hero is rolling up.
Also hoping we get more firsthand commentary on the Gaiaphage... again, it might count but I'd appreciate us being thorough here. So far the answer I'm getting is it goes against its script to enjoy killing: I'd be fine with saying yes if we can get more clarity that that's a decision it's making of it's own volition and not because it's brain got jacked up by crashing into a nuclear power plant and then merging with a dead guy.
Lizzid people!
I thought the Gaiphage was already removed once.
With Sentinel, I'm more comfortable becaus ehis scene of being beneficent and merciful is undercut by the reveal it's a PR more and his "I will be the only god" speech during the final battle.
Hell, if we wanna cut Kevin and just leave Luke, I'm fine, too. But no, I truly can't see Leilah making a decision in pure desperation when she thinks Will Smith has 'corrupted' her sister as to completely erase her one good quality, seeing it again now. No disrespect intended, of course, Tyk
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 26th 2022 at 2:04:16 AM
Tentative![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Gaiaphage.
As for the Law & Order trio, I think that they still manage to squeeze into the extra mile because of the suffocating two children for minutes and choking a person in their vomit; if it wasn't for that, they wouldn't stand out.
Edited by Misry6 on Feb 26th 2022 at 10:05:59 AM
Just an empty void…