Rename to Dysfunctional Duo:: The Masochism Tango

Edit: This post, and thus this thread, is outdated & obsolete. I was on the wrong track, the problem is not with the trope name.

There is a trope about dysfunctional relationships. It's laconic is: "They want to murder each other but choose to remain together."

This trope currently have the very awkward name The Masochism Tango, with Dysfunctional Duo as a redirect. I think this should be reversed, make Dysfunctional Duo the main name. Unless someone has an even better title to suggest?

There are many reasons why the title The Masochism Tango is bad:

1. The trope as nothing to do with masochism or tango. It doesn't even have anything to do with sexuality or dancing! The name give ZERO clues to the actual subject of the trope, while giving at least two false clues.

2. The trope is not only named after a work, but named after an obscure old work (one of the songs of an album from the fifties) that most people have never heard about.

3. Not only that, but the work doesn't even fit the trope! The work is a joke/song that makes fun of actual masochists, while the trope clearly states that it has nothing to do with actual masochism. The only connection to dysfunctional relationships is the prejudice that sadomasochists are assumed to be inherently dysfunctional and destructive.

4. The above prejudice against masochists is an effect of the work being horribly outdated. It was made back in the days when even homosexuality was officially regarded as a disease. The prejudices the song plays for laugh was what mainstream psychiatry believed about masochism back in those days, but that was a LONG time ago. These days, people who are interested in the subject and know what they are talking about have heard about Safe, Sane, and Consensual or similar concepts. DSM stopped regarding sadism and masochism as automatically destructive/dysfunctional in 1990. Granted, there are still those who believes that masochism is a disease or similar - but supporting their cause is not reason enough to keep a bad trope title for the propaganda value. Quite the contrary, IMHO.

5. The trope's quotes page contain several quotes that describe the trope perfectly. And yet we are stuck with a crappy page quote that doesn't describe the trope and IMHO is creepy without being interesting or entertaining. The only reason to keep the current page quote is that the quote is the only justification that exists for keeping the trope title, thus making the quote necessary by the virtue of being the only way people can make sense of the confusing and counter-intuitive title.

6. The one and only thing the old title have going for it is that it is old. But old titles do get replaced sometimes. Letting the title and the redirect switch places is no big project. Only needed change to the description is replacing "This trope is named for a song by Tom Lehrer, quoted above." with "This trope was originally named for a song by Tom Lehrer, quoted on the quotes page."

edited 20th Oct '10 3:51:17 AM by Xzenu

Just do it, I say. Dysfunctional Duo is far better than the current title.

The first part of point 2 is a good reason for a rename, the last part about being both very obscure and a song pretty much counters it.

Also, is there any misuse? I'll check the number of wicks.

The Masochism Tango found in: 264 articles, excluding discussions.

This title has brought 3,466 people to the wiki from non-search engine links since 20th FEB '09.

Unless there's significant misuse, I don't see a reason to rename.

edited 17th Oct '10 7:03:27 PM by Deboss

The Masochism Tango is a great name, that is also a pre-existent term. I know I heard it before coming to this wiki. That's because it was a well known song no matter what you think. Tom Lehrer was essentially the 50s equivalent of Weird Al Yankovic.

To respond to your points:

1: It perfectly describes the trope. It's a tango- a passionate romantic dance- but it's also masochism because all they do is hurt each other. What is the trope? Lovers who keep on hurting each other, but can't break away from each other because they are passionately in love. Much, much better a term than something as dry and clinical as Dysfunctional Duo- which doesn't even include the romantic aspect in the title.

2: No such thing as notability. Besides, I think you have your "internet youngster" blinders on. It was a famous song, that I've seen referenced in shows, and was performed on several variety shows. If a person lived during the fifties, then they probably heard of the song. Furthermore, it doesn't really matter, since it describes the trope perfectly, as long as you know anything about tangos.

3: Actually this song is the trope. It's all about a passionate love being expressed, and accepted, through violence- and is clearly a dysfunctional romance. Furthermore the actual line in the trope does not say it has nothing to do with masochism. It says this: "Do Not Confuse With actual masochism. Or, for that matter, actual tangos." Which is clearly one of those clarification lines that are at the bottom of a ton of different tropes.

4: Are you seriously arguing that we should get rid of a great trope title like this because it might offend masochists? You think we should worry about prejudice against masochists? Dude- IMHO- Lighten up.

5: I think the page quote is great! It's funny, and it describes the kind of mentality in such a relationship.

6: We need a lot better reasons to replace an old classic and descriptive name like The Masochism Tango with something vague, dry, and misleading like Dysfunctional Duo.

edited 17th Oct '10 7:11:49 PM by Sackett

I could type up a full rebuttal to that, but I think this explains it better:

I've never even heard of The Masochism Tango, and when I first read that title my mind went blank. So there.

^ So?

I'd never heard of half the things tropes are named for — characters from video games, tv shows, song lyrics, terms from anime... "I never heard of it!" is an insufficient reason to rename.

It's brought more than three thousand people, I think it's good.

I'm kind of baffled, because for me this is Exactly What It Says on the Tin territory. I had never heard, or heard of, the song(though I have now) and I knew exactly what the basic concept was. Self-identifying masochists or actual dancing never once entered my thoughts.

edited 17th Oct '10 9:39:51 PM by Daremo

Yeah, I'm with Vree. The current title makes sense having no clue about the song. The proposed one sounds like a crime fighting team that doesn't work well together. I'm thinking the Tick and Arthur. I am against renaming and strongly against the proposed title.

^^^^ You misread my post. I meant that the title made no sense to me, meant absolutely nothing. I think the proposed title is much clearer about what the trope is.

Dysfunctional Duo doesn't work because this is supposed to be a romantic trope. It sounds too much like With Friends Like These....

Dysfunctional Romance, then?

Dysfunctional is too broad. There are many ways the a couple can be dysfunctional without being in a Masochism Tango.

Destructive Romance, then? Or Loathful Lovers?

I think the current name fits just fine. Masochism means they kind of like it and tango is a dance where you usually lead your partner and switch off.

Regarding obscurity:

Some people argue along the line that the work is not obscure to them, even fifty years olds are youngsters, and there's no such thing as notability. This seem to be the MAIN argument against my argument to rename the trope.

However, this argument doesn't respond to even one of my six points. Instead, it merely respond to a subsection of the second of my six points. The main argument of my second point is that naming tropes after works is generally unpreferable. Of course tropes can be named after works, and indeed there's no such things as notability: If No.2 had been my only point then I wouldn't have bothered to suggest a rename.

The Tango isnt very obscure hell it was in the Get Smart Movie last year, and that Arnold movie with the harrier jet (True Lies?).

The one and only thing the old title have going for it is that it is old. But old titles do get replaced sometimes. Letting the title and the redirect switch places is no big project. Only needed change to the description is replacing "This trope is named for a song by Tom Lehrer, quoted above." with "This trope was originally named for a song by Tom Lehrer, quoted on the quotes page."

When we say that it would be too much of a hassle to rename something, we don't simply mean that we are too lazy to rewrite the title. The trope was already seen by thousands of people, who learned the current name, and they will keep using it, at least until they see the new one. It has a certain momentum, and we only break this sort of momentum if it is going in the wrong direction, for example people are incorrectly using it, or suspiciously few are using it at all. Neither is the case here, this page has many wicks and inbound links.

We don't keep names like The Scrappy or Flanderization only because of "LOL! Tradition!" either, but because even though logically they are supposed to be nonsensical, they are working on the wiki. People are using them, and they are using them correctly.

edited 18th Oct '10 2:54:44 AM by EternalSeptember

Sackett seems to believe that sexual sadomasochism is destructive and dysfunctional, that it's something the participants actually want to break away from but can't.

And thus he believe the metaphor to be perfect. But all it really mean is that he embrace the same old prejudice that the song is built on.

No surprise there, since he has expressed similar views before. Sure, that discussion was about homosexuality and transsexualism, but it would have surprised me if he didn't have similar... negativity against sadomasochists as well.

"Are you seriously arguing that we should get rid of a great trope title like this because it might offend masochists? You think we should worry about prejudice against masochists? Dude- IMHO- Lighten up."

No, I'm arguing that we should get rid of a crappy trope name for several reasons, including that it spreads prejudice. The reason you think it's "great" is that you embrace the prejudice that it spreads.

The song we are talking about is IMHO on the same level as Mr Garrison's speach "Gay people are evil" in South Park, but with one huge difference: Garrison is not a sympathetic character, his prejudice against homosexuals falls back on himself.

Seriously, mixing up sadomasochism with destructiveness is like mixing up friends cheerfully "killing" each other in computer games with friends who hate each other and try to murder each other.

Destructive relationships is a serious issue, and I don't appreciate it being turned into a joke. That the joke is at the expense of a sexual minority does NOT make it better in my eyes.

I'm sure most people who are okay with the title (surely including some people who have been in actual destructive romance and also some actual masochists) takes the "it's just a joke" route. But there's also those who look down on "that kind of people" - enjoying the joke exactly because they find it insulting to a group of people they look down on.

Eternal September,

You make a good argument for why my second point isn't enough for a rename. But as I have already pointed out, I would not have bothered to suggest a name change if the second point was all.

You seem to agree with my sixth point, that tradition is all the name have going for it. And yes, I agree with you that a lot of people will keep using the old name. But so what! Personally, I will still use Snugglebunnies rather then "Informed Obcenity". The old name will still be there as a redirect.

You mention Scrappy and Flanders. But these characters are not actual real life individuals or actual real life minority groups. Same goes for Ted Baxter, and I wouldn't mind trope titles that use Klingons and Ferengi as negative stereotypes. Africans or jews, however? Not so fun anymore. The momentum you talk about becomes a bad thing when it target actual people in a destructive way.

Raso,

There we have it. Thank you for making me realize why I hate this trope title so much.

"Masochism means they kind of like it".

There we have it indeed. My six points above are things that annoy me. But they have annoyed me for a long time without me bothering to start a big thread about it. Until the day before I started this thread, my attitude has always been "this title sucks, but whatever".

You see, the thing is this: They do NOT kind of like it. Not in real destructive relationships. That's exactly the thing.

The day before I started this thread, I was at the opera house watching the premiere of their new round of Sunset Boulevard. It was about an awful relationship where the man and womans was horrible to each other. She made several suicide attempts, eventually ending up murdering him instead.

Neither of them kind of liked any of it, I can assure you. Sackett really nailed it before, when it comes to destructive relationships. The deswcription i paraphrased above was brilliant, EXCEPT for that important detail that he seemed to believe that it covers actual masochism as well.

So, we have a twofold problem here, with the title (and the song it comes from) implying that destructive romances and masochism is the same thing:

• Destructive romances is not so bad, it's just masochism. They kind of like it that way.
• Masochism is not okay, it's destructive no matter what.

BOTH these points are destructive, and the first part is why feminists used to be against BDSM back in the days.

...what.

Well thats this trope... I mean nearly every example shows somewhere exactly why they are like that and why they love throwning Insults at each other its their way and there way of showing they love each other.

Look at Everybody Loves Raymond those two are always going at it but they have been going at it forever and when they dont the other thinks something is really wrong.

Love Hina Keitaro starts stressing out when Naru didn't hit him to the point of him trying to piss her off more (And when Keitaro acted normal around people EVERYONE freaked out). Its a little one sided here though thanks to Naru's Tsundere and Keitaro's Accidental Pervert natures... but even their wedding day had this and both were smiling even as Naru chased Keitaro for umm.. stripping her trying to get into the car.

Detective Conan Kogoro Mouri and his ex-wife Eri Kisaki is a bit of a sort of normal example they are split up, rarely spend time with each other, they bend over backwards to insult each other but to anyone else defend each other to no end (even when one is accused of murder) and there are still signs that they like it as is (she puts her job over anything else and he is a womanizer).

Klingon's as a whole require this for a relationship. There were scenes with Martok how he talked about their fights and how he loved every single minute of it and wouldn't give it up for anything.

Then there is Worf's description of romance.

Their whole relationship is built on insults and that's why they love each other One takes the lead by throwing an insult then the other takes the lead by one upping them. (Sometimes bad writing or Writers that cant make up their minds on what the two is suppose to be can cause this as well.)

Not every trope is good but they are presented that way in media. (This one is YMMV on if its good or not from a comedic perspective.)

edited 18th Oct '10 6:11:29 AM by Raso

Xzenu, you seem to be suffering from Serious Business.

The trope is about how these relationships are depicted in fiction land.

Also, you don't know me. So please stop trying to divine my bias as a way to call me a bigot and thus de-legitimize my position so as to avoid needing to deal with opposition.

But since you think my views on masochism are so important, let me just say that my attitude on the matter is that it's a free country. If you like that kind of stuff you are free to do it as long as it is consensual and safe. Furthermore, I know of no moral condemnation of such activities. Moral condemnation is for when such activities are unwelcome, non-consensual, or dangerous.

However- I will say that I'm not into that kind of thing. This is a matter of taste, not morals. Still, I think that enjoying being tied up and beaten shows very bad taste. I think enjoying tying someone up and beating them- even if they want it- to be even worse taste.

But then, everyone has different tastes. I don't feel a need to convince people to hate cauliflower, even though I think it to be an evil vegetable. Nor do I feel the need to demand people love pumpkin pie- even though it is my favorite desert.

Why do you feel the need to condemn me for not accepting masochism as admirable behavior? Why do you feel the need to protect masochists from the disapproval of the majority? Who I am quite sure agree with me, that masochism is in bad taste.

I happen to like anime- which the majority of my personal circle do not like and tend to look down on. I don't get offended by that. I have to accept that I like something that the majority does not. I don't demand that they tell me that anime is actually good and wonderful when I know they feel differently.

Everyone has different tastes. And if I want to express my tastes and interests, then I have to accept other people expressing their dislike of my tastes and interests.

Oh, Christ. Let's not get into a Bondage Is Bad derail here, please?

I will note though, that masochism is appropriate for this trope not because it's an inherently vile, sinful thing or anything of the sort, but because severe masochism (i.e., enjoyment of your own discomfort) is pretty much the only conceivable reason for these couples to stay together. Are there better names out there? Maybe. Is the name as it stands a deliberate attack on the BDSM subculture? No.

edited 18th Oct '10 6:37:49 AM by Iaculus