Hi all,
Character Specific Pages have seen multiple examples of misuse over the past months, with tropers immediately using the 40k byte count (or sometimes less) threshold as a greenlight to split off characters who meet that count into their own pages without checking all other criteria (e.g. is the page Overly Long, and most importantly have other options been tried first, like splitting the page into smaller groups etc — both of which form part of the current existing guidelines). This has led to a plethora of rogue pages being launched, which need to be merged back and is time-consuming.
To firm things up, the working group at Cleanup Thread: Character Specific Pages
have worked up new proposed wording to sit on the CSP landing page to help with compliance, and to ensure a smoother, less fragmented user-experience. Here is the newly worded guidance:
Here are the steps that should be assessed when considering splitting character pages:
- If the page has reached past or is close to reaching 250,000 written characters (this can be seen on the bottom left of the edit page in green), permission is given to split. If not, the page isn't in danger of being overly-long and no split is needed.
Example: The Character Page for Alice Vs. Bob is over 250k written characters; this page should be split into smaller pages. If not, take no action.
- If the page has tipped over the 250k written characters mark, the first goal should be to split the page into smaller sections (i.e. sorting characters alphabetically, by group, or suchlike)
Example: Several character folders fall under the group "Team Alice" and form the biggest portion of the page. A new page can be made called "Alice Vs. Bob: Team Alice" where these folders will a be moved.
- If Step 2 has been attempted, and there are no other practical solutions (e.g. in a situation where an already-split page also inflates beyond the 250k byte count) then splitting out a high-byte-count character (40k bytes+) into a CSP is the solution.
Example: Team Alice's page has reached the 250k count. Alice's folder is the biggest one on the page, and it meets the other qualifiers for a CSP as seen below. A new page can be made called "Alice Vs. Bob: Alice" where this folder will go.
The steps for splitting and creating character pages (as written above) must first be followed.
- The character's page is cleaned up beforehand, fixing any Zero Context Examples, removing outdated/misused tropes, and making sure all tropes listed fall under Characters and its related indexes (exceptions can be discussed).
- The page is at least 6,000 words/40,000 written characters (with spaces). Here is a byte counter. Once a new Character-Specific Page has been created, be sure to add its byte count to this page.
- The page it's split off from should reach the same minimum count.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Lex.
Edited by lexii on Feb 21st 2024 at 5:50:37 PM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
That already happened here in October.
throwing my two cents here because i'm not sure where else to.
I've got nothing personally against the new guidelines themselves, but the idea of retroactively refitting every previous page like has already happened before these burns me up a bit. I know quite a lot of pages I greatly enjoy are now going to be non-existent, particularly those towards fan works; I get the idea being held that people are just doing it to say they can, but the fact of the matter is regardless of their reason people put quite a lot of work and time into writing pages, and I think this is going to severely cripple 'There Is No Such Thing as Notability' and 'We are not Wikipedia'.
I love that this website has character specific pages for fan works. I hate the idea of these pages being axed like so many already have, because... What, this site could stand to be classier? More restrictive? I sincerely don't see the problem with having looser demands unless it is causing an actual strain problem on the website's coding or something, or the character page is listing tropes that aren't applicable/true.
It drives engagement and its fun, and if people want to be stricter, I know I'm not gonna be able to actually change that, so all I ask is that this not be made retroactive. If someone did consider having a character page for their little fanfic character to be a badge of honor, then honestly good for them, I'm happy they enjoy writing so much. I personally think they should be Grandfather Claused.
Also I was going to ask that someone remove Blue Suede's last two wicks, but it looks like someone already did while I was typing this. Thanks!
Edited by WinningPony on Feb 23rd 2024 at 6:32:56 AM
One-Track Mind (he/him)
How, exactly? I don't get it.
I'm lovin' it. (My Troper Wall)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Er, yeah subpages have zero to do with "notability", and the idea that they mean anything special is part of issue we need to deal with. Any work can still be tropeworthy; not every work warrants an index of character pages, just as they don't always warrant recap, or funny, or wmg.
Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 23rd 2024 at 10:14:11 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
he/him
That said, the current approach is that if you find something funny, it can get a funny moment page. If you have guesses, it can get a WMG page.
If someone wants to write up the characters for a work with four examples, This Is a Wiki applies and there's no policy guidance to stop them (but, again, that's beyond scope of this thread).
(And recap policy is a different can of worms)
It's only when we get to CSPs that we consider more detailed rules for who's entitled to a character page.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I was referring to whether or not the content exists. Not every work is funny, and not every fandom makes theories. Not every work would have the amount of content necessary to split group-based or character-specific subpages (hence why I said "index of" this time).
It's got nothing to do with how much we like the work in question; it's just that not every work is created equally.
Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 23rd 2024 at 10:38:09 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
One question. Pages like Characters.The Owl House Emperor Belos (~340k bytes) and Characters.God Of War Series Kratos (314k bytes) are expanding at a fast pace. Belos is already showing the Too Long warning now. Any guidelines regarding already existing massive Character-Specific Pages?
Edited by kuchiki222 on Feb 23rd 2024 at 7:38:15 AM
Showtime!
I think the first thing we should do is go through and clean up trope misuse/shoehorning and word cruft
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
He/Him
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Again, first off, "too long" isn't a warning, it's just a suggestion that it's loading a little slowly.
But to answer your question, first you need to clean the page up to remove any natter, misuse, or outdated tropes.
Edit: ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
by
And then if it still shows the blue "too long" suggestion, you split the character page up into its own subpages.
Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Feb 23rd 2024 at 11:45:29 PM
Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project
I don't mean to say that they're funny, only that I'm glad they exist for smaller works and that people enjoy making them. Even if we curb their creation in the future, taking pre-existing ones and merging them again isn't an idea that sits well with me for the ones who spent time with getting a csp as their goal.
I don't know. I can tell I'm in the minority for thinking this.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I was comparing the pages to other subpages that also aren't guaranteed to exist, not saying that you thought they were funny
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Showtime!
The problem is that troping with getting a csp as your goal very frequently leads to bad troping that breaks rules
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
he/him
Agreed. It's not a badge of honour.
Characters can be important, beloved fan favourites without having so many trope examples that they warrant a CSP.
And on the flip side, a widely loathed example of The Scrappy may still justify one if they're packed full of tropes.
From my perspective, the considerations are purely about making the wiki easier to read and navigate - e.g. do we split because of long pages and loading.
(Although I'd caveat that by saying that they're not exactly the same thing. I think splits and, to a lesser extent, CSPs may benefit some pages even if they're not so long that they trigger warnings)
Edited by Mrph1 on Feb 23rd 2024 at 4:43:07 PM
he/him
Having had some feedback from the team, the preference is a Crowner. I'll hook one.
If they do it poorly, then it either doesn't get approved or it gets axed if they go ahead with it anyway. Not like we don't have ways to punish poor troping nowadays.
The previous rules didn't encourage it so much that it became a problem as far as I could tell, especially since cleanup began several years ago now.
the Retromancer
The crowner seems to have the options missing?
Edited by Amonimus on Feb 23rd 2024 at 8:02:57 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
The Formatter
I generally agree. While I’m all for making sure the rules are airtight and followed, I don’t like the idea of them being too strict. Just a general airtight procedure is good enough for me, which is what this revision is supposed to do.
What I’ve been disagreeing g with is making it harder to launch CSP’s and split character pages to begin with, which the rules have been making harder and harder to do. That’s why I want to lower the byte minimum. But like I’ve also said if the majority wants to go stricter I’ll acquiesce.
Edited by GateStarX on Feb 23rd 2024 at 9:05:17 AM
It's gonna be fun on the bun!
he/him
Just formatting them now. I'll post to thread first.
he/him
I've tried to break the pinned post into a set of individual Crowner items that clearly state what's changing from the current Administrivia policy page.
I've also added one for the cleanup question - i.e. do pre-existing Character-Specific Pages remain under a grandfather clause, or do we actively seek to merge them back if they don't meet the new rules.
- The current recommendation that a character folder should be "cleaned up beforehand, fixing any Zero Context Examples, removing outdated/misused tropes, and making sure all tropes listed fall under Characters and its related indexes (exceptions can be discussed)" will be replaced by a requirement that this must be completed for all new Character Specific Page proposals. Cleanup will be coordinated via forum thread.
- The current note that a Character-Specific Page may be appropriate if a Characters page "bypasses technical limitations and requires a split up" will be replaced by a requirement that we will only consider a new Character-Specific Page if the original page is close to 250,000 characters in length.
- The current (strong) recommendation that "other options must have been tried first, like splitting pages into further groups" will be replaced by a requirement that a new Character-Specific Page can only be created if this option isn't workable.
- The current (strong) recommendation that any character folder moved to its own new Character-Specific Page should be "at least 6,000 words/40,000 characters" will be replaced by a requirement that it is at least 40,000 characters. For simplicity, we're no longer using word count as an alternative.
- The current note that the original Characters page "should still have enough writing to stand on its own" will be replaced by a requirement that it is still at least 40,000 characters after the Character-Specific Page is launched.
- Once the new guidelines are approved, all current Character-Specific Pages will be reviewed and any that don't meet all of the new guidelines will be merged back into multi-character pages.
~lexii - as you drafted the pinned post, are you comfortable that this accurately captures the changes you collated?
And a more general question for everyone - is there anything missing here, or anything we want to rephrase before it goes onto the Crowner?
Franchouchou Sponsor
Oh shoot, I didn't see Mrph's post about the voting options. Mb
Character Specific Page cleanup
he/him
No prob - reset it.
@Mrph1 - hi mate, yes I think you’ve captured that all perfectly. I’d like to emphasise that we are seeking to firm up policy, as opposed to change it, to help avoid misuse 
Edited by lexii on Feb 23rd 2024 at 9:05:41 AM