Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard (MB) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List
Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a MB has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's MBs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any MB link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an MB link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved MBs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their MB equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:36:43 AM
Keep Hank.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The wifi here sucks
Showtime!
Rewrite looks a lot better to me
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
I'm fine with Hank staying, love the rewrite pap!
Gotta love Jaws!
Keep Hank.
Lamar rewrite looks good.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Hank's Prove I Am Not Bluffing does provide some non-Informed Attribute cleverness. Not to mention having the social skills down pat. Agree with the crowd that he keeps, just wanted to expand on the why.
The Burgess rewrite looks good and given Scorpio does sound like he's smart enough to have resources and utilize him, he probably stays too.
While I know we went over this before, since Disney basically owns the Muppets as far as I know and strictly produces their own content for it such as the Disney+ stuff—like the Haunted Mansion special I've been meaning to check out—and the 2015 ABC show—so I don't just mean the four movies they made, should the stuff that they actually had a hand in go to the Disney page rather than other places? If not, that's fine. I mean I think of how the Artemis Fowl movie ending up directly on Disney+ doesn't just make that a Disney-released product, but something they actually have their hands in too.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 18th 2023 at 9:24:25 AM
Future, enough. Drop it and stop talking about it. You've brought the Muppets thing up before and it's just one of a dozen issues that you and literally only you are concerned about.
I also have a cut to propose, having talked with some other familiar with the game—Astrid from Skyrim.
Writeup:
- Astrid is the motherly leader of the last Dark Brotherhood sanctuary and seeks to restore the glory days when her family's name was feared and respected. Kidnapping the Dragonborn no matter where they sleep, Astrid orders them to kill one of three hostages, not to find the one under an actual contract, but to test if they will kill on command and invites them to the Brotherhood. Later on, Astrid's command is tested when the mythical Night Mother arrives with her insane keeper and names the agent the new Listener and orders the murder of the Emperor himself. Astrid's plans go flawlessly by luring the target to Skyrim by having his cousin murdered at her wedding, weakening his security by framing the guard captain's son as a traitor, and having the Listener kill and replace a renown chef that will be cooking for the Emperor. Threatened by the Night Mother's authority, Astrid sells out the Listener to the Emperor's vengeful bodyguard, yet ultimately arranges her own execution in repentance and hands control over to the Listener.
Completely setting aside the fact that almost nobody in the fanbase likes Astrid (which IMO is irrelevant to her qualification based on our criteria), Astrid messes up bad in the finale of the Dark Brotherhood questline. She betrays the Dark Brotherhood to ally with a man whose son she directly ordered murdered—and, absolutely unsurprisingly, he betrays her, destroys the Dark Brotherhood and leaves her with nothing. Astrid never predicts this and she spends some of her final moments bemoaning what a "fool" she was for trusting him.
Astrid is clever, but I really think her fuck-up with Maro is too much to look past. To be quite honest I don't think she makes up for it; she's remorseful and she has the PC take over what's left of the Dark Brotherhood, but it's not like she's doing anything particularly stylish to redeem herself. She just hands you a dagger and tells you to kill her as atonement. No final schemes or even much dignity left; she just hands you the mess she made.
Compared to all the others we have listed in the series right now, let alone in Skyrim (any one qualifier from the Thieves' Guild, for example, is a way easier fit than Astrid. I don't think we can justify listing her with this gigantic mistake being pretty much the last thing she ends on.
I say cut. Thoughts?
I could still go either way on Astrid as the one who proposed her. When I did the EP, everyone at the time felt her last moments gave her enough dignity to be put up. If you've talked with several people about it, I'll take your word that many have come to see the opposite. Although, I will say her atonement is quite stylish in the sense of performing a Black Sacrement on herself.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 18th 2023 at 7:10:26 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Caesar
Fully support cutting Astrid here. She seems to mostly have gotten by on charm but she makes a really, really notable screw-up that endears her to no one and horribly fucks her and the entire organization, and unlike a lot of examples we like to see since those older days of "bouncing back", she just...kind of goes "ah man, that sucks. Anyway, why don't you take over the organization I just royally fucked over and kill me, kthnx". In a world with as many charming, brilliant characters as Elder Scrolls who don't screw up this bad, I can't see Astrid staying.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 18th 2023 at 7:11:17 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
I was a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
before, and my opinion hasn't changed. Cut her.
Woagh
I don't mind cutting Astrid, but I'm curious if the Fandom really does hate her enough to call her The Scrappy. I know people despise Delphine, which was the main ground for not voting her up, but I've never a vocal hatedom for Astrid.
Edit: After looking at the YMMV page, Astrid is at the very bottom of the The Scrappy section. Is her hatedom something recent, as I genuinely don't recall such when I made the EP.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 18th 2023 at 7:22:23 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
I'm neutral with Astrid (although her final moments juuuust keep her for me) but that Scrappy entry was added not too long ago, I remember bringing it up in the old thread asking about M Bs being Scrappies. Only genuine scrappy I get from the game is Delphine.
Edited by WetFlannels on Feb 18th 2023 at 3:25:49 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
While I am overall neutral about Astrid, I do want to give one counterpoint. Scraggle says her final atonement isn't that stylish and is just handing you a dagger asking you to kill her.
This is underselling what she does to herself. She performs a Black Sacrement on herself to make herself a target bound by the Brotherhood's dark magics. The ritual involves her using her own body as an effigy wherein she had to have stabbed herself repeatedly with a dagger poisoned with nightshade, all the while doing this while she is horribly disfigured and near death from a fire. Spiritually, she fully knows marking herself as a victim will doom her to be an eternal slave to Sithis after death.
She does a lot to bring atonement for her actions, and this was the main cusp of why I said her last act made up for her mistake when I did the effort post. Whether anyone else agrees is up to them. I'm just wanting to clarify that one particular point.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Back just to say I just struck what I wrote from a couple days ago. Disregard please.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 18th 2023 at 9:36:44 AM
I have noticed a few mistakes on writeups I made that never got edited and that I can't edit myself
@ Power Rangers For Mystic Force''
- Hekatoid initially seems like little more than a lazy glutton who lets Serpentina goad into attacking the Rangers prematurely, but he manages to stela Nick and Vida's powers before being called back from the fight, putting them at a disadvantage. He later goes on to kidnap Udonna as a hostage to us against the Rangers ben though he hasn't yet been selected to face them.
stela should be steal, ben should be been.
@ DC Animation For Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman in the DC Animated Universe folder, there are a couple of mistakes with two different character write ups.
- Detective Sonia Alcana is the daughter of a family that lost their home and business to Rupert Thorne's protection racket. As an adult, she joins the police force and conducts a private investigation for revenge. She and an her cohorts with their own grudges with Thorne, take turns donning the Batwoman costume as Sonia plans out a ruthless campaign against the villains' arms smuggling racket.
"an" should be and and "with their own grudges against Thorne" should be, "who have their own grudges against Thorne's partners".
- Dr. Roxanne "Rocky" Ballantine is the fiancée of Kevin, a man who was wrongfully sent to prison because of the Penguin, and dons the Batwoman costume to get revenge and exonerate Kevin. She is both a skilled martial artist and the inventor of the technology that the three Batwoman use. Despite her warm and friendly demeanor, she happily subjects Penguin to torture to learn about his newest enforcer. When Batman gets interested in the caseacts as Mission Control for Kathy's final mission.
"casacts" should be "case, she acts".
Sorry for the typos.
I'll fix that stuff Mel but please run through the Get Help with English thread going forward. I know they can be slow at times to respond but it will help you.
Cut Astrid, reading it all through.
Hi, I now haven't posted here in awhile but I saw Astrid being reevaluated and I agree in cutting her. MB's are allowed to make mistakes, but when the mistake is completely idiotic, like selling out your best assassin to a guy who you killed the son off and just trusting that he won't betray you because you're afraid that this might lead to a return to the old ways, yeah that's too much for me. She has dignity in her final moments but doesn't really do much to correct her glaring screw up, since she's a burned husk at this point.
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Yeah cut Astrid, that blunder sounds a bit to big.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I'm gonna lean keep with Lore's points honestly.
The First man
Goku Black
Cut Astrid.
I would be more lenient. If we didn't have 7 other examples from that game alone. When we get to that number I'm way less inclined to be less lenient if a chatvatees plan ends that stupidly.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Agreed, it's time to scrutinize.
Yeah irrespective of whether or not she's a Scrappy (which in my mind is relevant although I am getting conflicting views on whether or not she is), at the end of the day she trusted someone she absolutely should not have, and as such screwed herself. With a bunch of other solid candidates that's leading me to say she's outclassed.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Yeah keep Hank, he's definitely got the charm and brilliance for this trope