To-do list:
- Move examples of attractive guys/cute girls with a debilitating sicknesses from Ill Girl, Ill Boy, Ill Child, and Ill Man to Delicate and Sickly and remove ones that don't (such as examples that are simply about a character with an illness with none of the trope's connotations).
A Wick Check determined that the trope suffered misuse under a variety of categories, including simply "an ill character”, with only eight checked examples determined as correct usage (9.5%). Both Related.IllGirl
and Related.IllBoy were checked due to their large number of wicks, though there are also redirects for Ill Child (31) and Ill Man (16). To summarize the findings found here:
- 8/84 Correct Usage or 9.5%
- 6/84 Only Debilitatingly Ill or 7%
- 17/84 Just sick/weak or 20%
- 5/84 Character is Mentally Ill or 6%
- 12/84 Has a disability or 14%
- 15/84 Other Misuse or 18%
- 4/84 Unclear or 4.75%
- 17/84 ZCE or 20%
Combining the various misuse categories, this trope has a 90% misuse rate. The laconic isn’t the worst description in the world, summarized as "Someone, usually female, who’s debilitatingly sick." but I think it is probably one of the reasons for some misuse. A common theme in misuse is describing a character who was sick in the past or before the work takes place, often as a freebie in addition to Sickly Child Grew Up Strong. Tightening the restrictions and/or making them clearer may help alleviate future misuse.
I know renaming is usually a last resort, but I also believe the trope name itself is a source of misuse. It is a cutesy, close rhyme title, but it may be too broad, especially with the trend of swapping out "girl" for the appropriate descriptor (i.e. "boy", "man", "woman"), which doesn't necessarily violate the How to Write an Example rule on not altering trope titles in example lists (gender is an exception) but still not great because of the short trope title, so it'll still affect alphabetization.
Edited by Berrenta on Aug 24th 2022 at 12:32:51 PM
That doesn't look like it's part of the definition. The closest thing in the description is this:
and that says "usually", ergo it's not a requirement.
Looking through the first page of this thread, it looks like consensus was leaning toward not having such a requirement.
Thoughts on "the sick character is the driving point of another character to go on some sort of quest to help make them better" being part of the definition?
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I added a to-do list to the opening post and pinned it. The OP's original contents have been moved to a folder.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Any thoughts on the definition, as discussed in the last few posts?
(she/her)
I thought I shared my thoughts on this already. But I don't think we need it if we already have Healthcare Motivation.
Edited by MacronNotes on May 16th 2022 at 11:19:35 AM
Macron's notes
She / Her
I honestly think it's unnecessary. EDIT: And that you're making the trope more complicated than it needs to be.
Edited by RandomTroper123 on Jun 27th 2022 at 9:22:03 AM
(she/her)
More opinions on this? I don't think removing it is a big enough change to require a crowner but I could be wrong.
Macron's notes
I'm just worried that removing that limitation will lead to examples being "a character is sick", which was the reason Ill Girl was brought to TRS in the first place.
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Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Eh, but it's covered by Healthcare Motivation. The trope is more about the character being used to make both the audience and the other characters feel bad for them, because they're sick and helpless, and it makes them seem cute and makes the audience invested. A quest doesn't seem necessary.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
She / Her
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Said it better than I did![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
.
the Retromancer
Not all examples have healthcare motivation, sometimes it's like The Lost Lenore but alive.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
If the trope hadn't already been renamed, I might suggest a rename to bring the "audience sympathy" part to the forefront, like "Sympathetically Sick", or "Sympathetically Sick and Vulnerable", or... I dunno.
the Retromancer
As seen, it's been renamed in February.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
That seems more like a YMMV concept
I know. Just an idle thought spurred by WarJay's post. There's no evidence that problems will persist under the new name.
Not really? Intended Audience Reaction is objective. Whether it works is the subjective part.
Edited by Twiddler on May 21st 2022 at 5:14:22 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I removed the "but usually prompts an older brother or sister figure into shady business to help pay the medical bills. Or prompts them to rush into some dangerous/brave deed while she cheers them on" part since consensus was against having it there, and since it already says "usually" and not "always", meaning it was never a mandatory part of the definition.
I don't think we need a crowner since it wasn't integral to the definition since it said "usually" and not "always", meaning if someone wants to reintegrate it in some way, it can go on an Analysis page instead of being in the main description.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 22nd 2022 at 6:45:51 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
(she/her)
Currently working on the Ill Boy wicks.
Just to be sure, the only criteria for context is for the character to debilitatingly sick and attractive? Most examples I have found don't mention the attractiveness part of the trope. The examples moved to Delicate and Sickly don't mention cuteness either so not sure how important that characteristic is to the trope in terms of context.
Edited by MacronNotes on Jun 7th 2022 at 12:52:45 PM
Macron's notes
(she/her)
Bumping because of ^ since I am not sure what I am supposed to be moving/removing here.
Macron's notes
Peeks from Under Rocks
Last page, Gaston noted that they didn't clean OPE when they moved the pages, so quite possibly not indicative of proper use. IIUC, a big part of the consensus is that this only applies if the character maintains "Cute" - Either "moe" or "attractive" varieties - throughout.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
No, I didn't clean on-page examples, so those need to be taken care of if they haven't been already.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 15th 2022 at 9:36:05 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
(she/her)
I am just saying the wicks are being used the same way and are still being moved over. If cuteness is required, the Delicate and Sickly wicks have to be reevaluated because a lot of them only mention the vulnerable because of their debilitating sickness part of the trope which is apparently just half of it...which just cleanup to be more work. I think I'll comment out anything that doesn't mention the character's cuteness with a note that that trait is required.
Edited by MacronNotes on Jun 15th 2022 at 10:38:52 AM
Macron's notes
She / Her
The main page states it involves a handsome guy or a cute girl.
(she/her)
Again, I am aware of that. It's just that most wicks don't have context for that part but are being moved to Delicate and Sickly anyways so I was confused. I think I'll cleaning this trope off for now and work on other things.
Macron's notes
She / Her
If possible, I'd add context judging from the character's appearance via using their photo in their folder or whatever pops up in a Google search (assuming a pic is available as it probably wouldn't be helpful for several roleplays, for example). I hope this helps.
Crown Description:
Consensus was to rename Ill Girl. What should its new name be?
Not yet. It's a partial example at best. One of the main points of Delicate and Sickly is that the sick character is the driving point of another character to go on some sort of quest to help make them better. (This is often the part missing from examples back when "Ill Girl" was potholed to basically anytime a character had a cold)
If he's just lying sick in a bed, then that's chairs. Or, it might be one of the related tropes, possibly Incurable Cough of Death.
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