Needs Help: Famous Last Words

Famous Last Words for years has suffered from tons of misuse, what the Famous Last Wick Check revealed is really bad

• 4/70 are actually correct.
• 4/70 are real people's recorded last words.
• 25/70 are low on context just listing someone's last words.
• 26/70 Just list words we are left to assume are their last words.
• 9/70 Just refer to last words.
• 2/70 Have some other problem.

As WarJay pointed out the trope is also very unclear on what this trope is supposed to be about the description says that the words need to be impactful but the Laconic implies that it is just a list of last words. This trope is so badly misused that honestly, the only option I see for fixing this is to make it Just for Fun and just have it as a list of last words.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jun 2nd 2021 at 11:31:11 AM

Opening.

Agreed. It is not tropeworthy.

I could go with JFF.

Move to JFF.

Hrm. Is it just me or are a number of wicks in the check marked as misuse ZCE more than misuse?

for JFF

JFF.

Those were my categories, so I'll explain:

• Low context: At least said the character was dying while they said the line ("As Alice lays dying, she says "I love you"")
• ZCE: Just the line ("I love you")
• Refers to the concept of last words in general: ("Alice's Famous Last Words were sad")

I didn't really consider a "misuse" category since as pointed out in the OP it's not even really clear what correct use is supposed to be.

I actually don't know about moving to JFF. What do we gain by a bunch of contextless phrases that don't mean anything to anyone unfamiliar with the work?

Edited by Synchronicity on Jun 2nd 2021 at 1:41:59 PM

I wouldn't really say we would gain anything per say, but this trope is universally used that way it is pretty much the only solution to the problem. I am not even sure if the idea of Impactful Last Words would even be a trope but if it is it can't be this.

I have to concur that I don't see the point in a Just for Fun page listing merely all last words of someone.

The reason why I am asking about low context/ZCE vs misuse is because while misuse can be a sign of an inherent problem with the trope, low context/ZCE is more commonly the sign of poor troping habits rather than of an inherent problem with the trope.

The thing is it is a problem with the trope as a whole as I mentioned the trope itself doesn't even make it clear if this is just a list of last words or not.

This also isn't exclusive the Off-Page examples every single On-Page example is also like this.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jun 2nd 2021 at 11:52:18 AM

With a trope like this though, where the definition might actually be "person says thing and dies", it's easy to assume that the ZCEs are opperating under the assumption that this is what the trope is.

I guess the JFF idea doesn't make sense now that I think about it.

Maybe a disambig, with the last words tropes that actually mean something?

Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 2nd 2021 at 3:12:37 PM

Maybe JFF wouldn't work but honestly without that as a solution, I don't really see how this trope could be fixed short of just outright Cutting it.

Disambig may work as well.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jun 2nd 2021 at 12:13:32 PM

I think there are two tropeworthy concepts here:

1. A character's last words are embued with heavy symbolism: Arc Words, a Title Drop, etc.
2. A character's last words become famous In-Universe, and are often repeated or referred to by other characters.

Most entries just list the Last Words though, which makes it hard to find good examples.

I vote to send this back to the TLP under definition 2.

Edited by naturalironist on Jun 2nd 2021 at 4:30:32 AM

Well, we could still make a trope of meaning 2 and do the disambig, if we can think of a different title for that trope.

The issue is, that change would be so radical it's basically starting from scratch anyway.

Yeah If that concept is tropeworthy that's fine but with how badly screwed up this trope already is it can't really be this one without basically redoing the entire trope.

Is Last Words a trope? Currently it's an index but I wonder if retooling it would work.

I fear as-is it will lead to similar issues as Famous Last Words, where people just quote last works without explaining what they mean.

Yeah, I don't think last words is a trope.

Hmmm...come to think, can this be a redirect to that index?

I think the idea of "here's a collection of last words" in JFF wouldn't hurt, but if we're going to send this back to the TLP with a new definition, we might need a new name for that.

I've also seen some discussion over whether or not examples should include context behind the words in the explanation.

I agree that any "last words with context" project would have to be made from scratch. Not much to save with Famous Last Words as is.

Famous Last Words could be a trope, if said last words actually have some narrative significance to the people who heard those last words. Maybe if it inspires their friends/family into a certain course of action. It would probably have to be built from scratch, though, seeing as virtually none of the current examples mention anything of that sort.

"Characters say something before they die" is not a trope.

Edited by Adept on Jun 2nd 2021 at 8:55:46 PM

to "redirect to Last Words".